Calvinism, explained.

[Patmos]

Many years ago I used to regularly play chess with a die hard Calvinist. His wife was neither C or A.

When one of us made a nerdy comment such as " Calvinist/Arminians believe.... " followed by some obvious nonsense, she would smack either of us around the head with a large kipper. (It wasn't a real kipper. Just one of their dog's toys.)

It really helped one to focus on the chess game.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Winning or losing an argument on an internet discussion board is not going to have any effect on your standing with God, or your eternal destiny. It's not worth getting bent out of shape over.

 

[Patmos]

Silly joke deleted.

 

[nobdysfool]

No need for comment...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Aint that the truth.

 

[Patmos]

Back to the OP.

Does God have a plan or does God have a purpose ?

 

[sdowney717]

Matthew 20:23
So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.”

Jesus shows the truth that God is in control in the lives of His people. For those whom have been prepared certain situations of existence in His eternal kingdom.

Even within the kingdom of God, there are some who have more and some who have less, and some who will have nothing at all.
Jesus even says the one who earned 10 minas, was faithful in a 'very little'. Likewise the 5 minas.

But the 'wicked servant' lost all he had been entrusted with. Here is described a 1 Corinthians 3 experience. He was not totally faithless, but he did not understand the Lord's purpose, what the LORD had said, he did not do what he should have with what the LORD had given to him. He was not the Lord's enemy so he was not slain as the ones who did hate the King's Lordship.

Of those who did not wish the reign of the King in their lives, they were all killed, so they went to hell fire.

It is for God to decide, for those whom He has prepared, who will receive what they will.

Those who have His divine power at work in their life, He also requires of them all the more, yet not by their power or ability, those who have the most 'minas', God also gave to them the most ability to work what He willed for them, the Matthew 25 parable.

Luke 19
The Parable of the Minas
11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’

15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’

20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’

22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’

24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’ 25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) 26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’”

 

[sdowney717]

In a variant of this parable, Jesus gave to each according to their ability, some more, some less, some very little.
5, 2, 1 talents
Here they all were unequally given their talents, the ones given the most brought the best return, see the economy of the Kingdom at work.
The other similar story each simply received all the same at the beginning, one minas.

Here the one given just the one talent, was cast into hell because he did nothing but bury the talent in the ground to preserve it.
God expects a return on His investment. He invests more, He expects more back in gain. The gain though is kept by the one who earned it by way of rewards becoming a ruler over many things.
'‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance'

While the one who has nothing here really does lose it all. Similar story with a different apparent ending for this worthless servant.
In the first parable all receive a single talent, while here it is a different beginning and also appears to be a different ending. Or perhaps the end of the 'wicked servant' in the other parable is just not told.

Matthew 25
The Parable of the Talents
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[JCFantasy23]

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[jimmyjimmy]

With over 1,400 posts, and on this topic, I'm amazed that it hasn't been closed already. People have remained fairly civil.

 

[tulipbee]

Back to the OP.

Does God have a plan or does God have a purpose ?

It's both.
All plans have a purpose

 

[Skala]

Does not God say that He gives a measure of faith to all. So is the measure of faith different for all?

To all of who?

What is the context of the verse you have in mind?

 

[sdowney717]

I found this is a useful resource, I am very fond of reading about God's grace for His saints.
http://www.gracegems.org/SERMONS.htm

 

[Hoghead1]

Clothed, please do not put words into my mouth. I did not say I didn't believe the Bible. My point is that divinely inspired or not, it was written by men living in a prescientific, semi-barbaric culture. Under those circumstance, there are human fingerprints all over the Bible. You are viewing Scripture from the standpoint of fundamentalist Christianity. OK, fine. Only thing is, that is not the only Christian approach to the Bible. My concern is that you seem to feel all Christians must agree with you, lest they are children of teh Devil or something. You have to appreciate the Christianity is not a monolithic religion, just one way. Christianity represents a rich plurality of diverse teachings and beliefs.

 

[Hoghead1]

Patmos, I believe God has a purpose and enjoys a fixity of purpose. God is continually creative, continuing to present oppornities or p[possibilities for us to actualize in order to achieve e new-found beauty. As to a plan, I disagree completely with Calvin on that one. For one thing, if you say that God works by a plan, where do your stop? Do you say that God planned out his planning, that he planned out his plan to plan out his planning? You end up in an infinite regress here. Spontaneity is one of the higher degrees of creativity, so I believe God can jump in and improvise. Also, I don't believe in predestination, as that undercuts any real sense of human freedom. Prior to creation, I see no reason why God would work out a detailed plan. OI mean, I can't see how, before creation, God could plan to have Shakespeare write his plays. Whether Shakespeare does or doesn't depends on his free decisions, whether he would even have the opportunity to do so depends on the free decisions of others. God knows it would be ridiculous to plan way ahead as God knows the future is very iffy. The is no way of guaranteeing the future. So God isn't about to trouble himself or herself over wo God cannot decide for us. We have to decide for ourselves. And until we do, the future is open-ended, up for grabs, both for both ourselves and God.

 

[expos4ever]

God has a plan.....
.....
And since we believe that God is infinite, His plan must extend to every single detail for ALL these things.

I am quite certain this (last) statement is simple speculation. Granted an infinite God, it certainly does not follow logically that He would therefore plan in this exhaustive manner.

 

[Hoghead1]

I am quite certain this (last) statement is simple speculation. Granted an infinite God, it certainly does not follow logically that He would therefore plan in this exhaustive manner.

Well, if God has predetermined it all, everything that happens, right down to the smallest detail, where is freedom and how is God anything other than the author of evil?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Well, if God has predetermined it all, everything that happens, right down to the smallest detail, where is freedom and how is God anything other than the author of evil?

God's predestination of all that happens in His creation does not equate to God "scripting" everything that happens.

Undoubtedly one could get off into the weeds pretty quickly if He talked about the fact that everything "consists" in His Word and that we have our being "in Him".

So it's probably best to leave that on the shelf for now and just stick to the idea that God "allows" certain things to take place and doesn't allow others to take place. In addition to mere "allowance" He obviously is involve directly with many of the things that happen in His creation as well. Also it is obvious that nothing that He "allows" could happen unless He Himself was also involved in at least some way.

I don't know of anyone, Calvinist or not, who would disagree with the idea that God is the one who sovereignly chooses what He will allow to take place - whatever may be involved in the bringing to past of that thing.

Since He knew beforehand everything that would take place ever and He also decided beforehand what things would be allowed to take place - it is fair, logical, and scriptural to say that He is the one who "predestined" all that takes place - at least in some way.

There may well be a proper debate as to where and when He involves Himself - more than in just the normal fact that we have our being in Him. But there should be no debate whatsoever as to whether or not He predestines everything that happens. He does that just by choosing what He will allow to take place or not take place - if in no other way.

The predestination by God of all that happens in His creation does not in any way negate the "free" choices of the creation.

To use a rather "pedestrian" example -- the fact that I may or may not be predestined to live until the weekend but that I will die on Friday from being hit by a car in the intersection in no way infringes on my right and ability to look both ways or not look both ways before stepping off the curb.

To say that it must is to simply be saying something that is not arrived at through good logic.

It is, IMO, saying something that is unduly influenced by emotion or perhaps even a desire to be completely independent of the creator --- which, as they say in the vernacular- "ain't gonna happen".

 

[GillDouglas]

I am quite certain this (last) statement is simple speculation. Granted an infinite God, it certainly does not follow logically that He would therefore plan in this exhaustive manner.

Do you believe that God is sovereign, and that ALL things happen according to His will? Or do you believe in luck and chance in a randomly generated chaotic world where God hopes that things work out in His favor?

 

[Job8]

Do you believe that God is sovereign, and that ALL things happen according to His will? Or do you believe in luck and chance in a randomly generated chaotic world where God hopes that things work out in His favor?

Everything does happen according to God's will. But God's perfect will does not necessarily correspond to His permissive will. Because of God's foreknowledge and His omniscience, nothing takes God by surprise. However He allows many things which are in conflict with His character, including all the sin and evil around us. God is indeed sovereign, but He is not responsible for what evildoers say and do. At the same time, all of Nature is in His perfect control, even when he allows Satan to use natural phenomena against men.