Calvinism, explained.

[Hoghead1]

God's predestination of all that happens in His creation does not equate to God "scripting" everything that happens.

Undoubtedly one could get off into the weeds pretty quickly if He talked about the fact that everything "consists" in His Word and that we have our being "in Him".

So it's probably best to leave that on the shelf for now and just stick to the idea that God "allows" certain things to take place and doesn't allow others to take place. In addition to mere "allowance" He obviously is involve directly with many of the things that happen in His creation as well. Also it is obvious that nothing that He "allows" could happen unless He Himself was also involved in at least some way.

I don't know of anyone, Calvinist or not, who would disagree with the idea that God is the one who sovereignly chooses what He will allow to take place - whatever may be involved in the bringing to past of that thing.

Since He knew beforehand everything that would take place ever and He also decided beforehand what things would be allowed to take place - it is fair, logical, and scriptural to say that He is the one who "predestined" all that takes place - at least in some way.

There may well be a proper debate as to where and when He involves Himself - more than in just the normal fact that we have our being in Him. But there should be no debate whatsoever as to whether or not He predestines everything that happens. He does that just by choosing what He will allow to take place or not take place - if in no other way.

The predestination by God of all that happens in His creation does not in any way negate the "free" choices of the creation.

To use a rather "pedestrian" example -- the fact that I may or may not be predestined to live until the weekend but that I will die on Friday from being hit by a car in the intersection in no way infringes on my right and ability to look both ways or not look both ways before stepping off the curb.

To say that it must is to simply be saying something that is not arrived at through good logic.

It is, IMO, saying something that is unduly influenced by emotion or perhaps even a desire to be completely independent of the creator --- which, as they say in the vernacular- "ain't gonna happen".

No, Marvin, that is definitely not what Calvin had in mind with predestination. He was quite clear that God had predetermined all right down to the smallest detail and that everything has to happen the way God predetermined it to happen. This did create a problem about God and evil. Calvin tried to get out of it by arguing that God had a secret will responsible for evil. He developed this further by arguing that murders, larcenists and other evil doers are the instruments by which God executes his judgments upon us. In other words, evil was only merely apparent. Anything bad that happens is a well-deserved punishment from God. If that isn't a big excuse for making God the author of evil, I don't know what is.
Also, such predestination is definitely incomparable with any sense of free will. We have no choice in the matter. Even if we make a choice, it isn't ours, as God already decided our choice before we came along. As long as God decides it all for us, there really is no freedom. Calvin was aware of this issue. That's why in his "Institutes," he pokes fun at the idea of free will. I think you also find that to be the case in Luther's "Bondage of the Will," where, as I recall, he comes right out and says the princes are merely puppets.

 

[GillDouglas]

Everything does happen according to God's will. But God's perfect will does not necessarily correspond to His permissive will. Because of God's foreknowledge and His omniscience, nothing takes God by surprise. However He allows many things which are in conflict with His character, including all the sin and evil around us. God is indeed sovereign, but He is not responsible for what evildoers say and do. At the same time, all of Nature is in His perfect control, even when he allows Satan to use natural phenomena against men.

So luck and chance rule this world and not it's Creator? Evildoers have free reign to do what they will and in no way contribute to the end state in which creation is heading? I do not agree with your conclusion here.

 

[Hoghead1]

So luck and chance rule this world and not it's Creator? Evildoers have free reign to do what they will and in no way contribute to the end state in which creation is heading? I do not agree with your conclusion here.

I don't either, Gill. Calvin is quite specific that things happen because God willed them to happen. Nothing can happen unless God wills it, wants it. God, in Calvin, is in compete and total monopolistic control of the world, right down to the smallest details.

 

[Marvin Knox]

No, Marvin, that is definitely not what Calvin had in mind with predestination. He was quite clear that God had predetermined all right down to the smallest detail and that everything has to happen the way God predetermined it to happen. T

You are right in saying that Calvin believed that everything has to happen the way God predetermined it to happen "right down to the smallest detail".

That says nothing about the will of man - fallen or otherwise.

Also, such predestination is definitely incomparable with any sense of free will. We have no choice in the matter. Even if we make a choice, it isn't ours, as God already decided our choice before we came along. As long as God decides it all for us, there really is no freedom.

Calvin did not believe in the deterministic coercion of the will of men by God. He argued against it - as did Augustine before him.

Calvin was aware of this issue. That's why in his "Institutes," he pokes fun at the idea of free will.

Believing and teaching that the will of fallen man is in bondage to sin says nothing about deterministic coercion - which is what you are arguing against.

Calvin did not teach that. Quite the opposite.

I suppose there may be some "hyper-Calvinist" types out there who would argue for scripting and coercion.

But no one here that I know of believes in that or has taught that here.

I often hear it charged that that is what Calvinism teaches. But that is just a misrepresentation of the beliefs of Calvinists. Nothing much new there.

 

[Hoghead1]

You are right in saying that Calvin believed that everything has to happen the way God predetermined it to happen "right down to the smallest detail.

That says nothing about the will of man - fallen or otherwise.

Calvin did not believe in the deterministic coercion of the will of men by God. He argued against it - as did Augustine before him.

Believing and teaching that the will of fallen man is in bondage to sin says nothing about deterministic coercion - which is what you are arguing against.

Calvin did not teach that. Quite the opposite.

I suppose there may be some "hyper-Calvinist" types out there who would argue for scripting and coercion.



But no one here that I know of believes in that or has taught that here.

I often hear it charged that that is what Calvinism teaches. But that is just a misrepresentation of the beliefs of Calvinists. Nothing much new there.

You are definitely not making any sense here, Marvin. First, you rightly assert that Calvin b asserted God predetermined everything right down to the smallest detail. Then you assert Calvin taught freedom. That's totally contradictory and you know it. Also, it is not an accurate picture of what Calvin said. I could send you some quotes in Old French from his French "Institutes" to support myself here, if you want.

 

[expos4ever]

Do you believe that God is sovereign, and that ALL things happen according to His will? Or do you believe in luck and chance in a randomly generated chaotic world where God hopes that things work out in His favor?

This is an extremely obvious false dilemma. The two options you present are not the only choices.

 

[expos4ever]

Well, if God has predetermined it all, everything that happens, right down to the smallest detail, where is freedom and how is God anything other than the author of evil?

I do not believe that God predetermined everything.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You are definitely not making any sense here, Marvin. First, you rightly assert that Calvin b asserted God predetermined everything right down to the smallest detail. Then you assert Calvin taught freedom. That's totally contradictory and you know it.

I am making perfect sense just as I spelled out for you before.

It is not contradictory and I know that it isn't.

God's determining everything that will happen (determining everything that He will "allow to happen" as men are wont to say) - does not remove the instrument in the creation that brings that thing to past.

If God, for instance, determined that there would be a great earthquake at the time of Christ's death that would split the veil of the temple from top to bottom - it does not logically follow that there were not normal daily movements in the plates of the earth that acted to cause that earthquake exactly at that time.

If that is a logical verdict, and it is, it would also be illogical for anyone to say that God has to do away with any man's freedom to choose a thing in order to have that thing happen.

God uses "means" to bring about what He has predestined to occur. In many instances those means are the "free" choices of men.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So luck and chance rule this world and not it's Creator? Evildoers have free reign to do what they will and in no way contribute to the end state in which creation is heading? I do not agree with your conclusion here.

Does not the Bible itself say that satan is the king of this world?

And that for God's children, this world is not our home?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Do you believe that God is sovereign, and that ALL things happen according to His will? Or do you believe in luck and chance in a randomly generated chaotic world where God hopes that things work out in His favor?

If you beleive that God created the heavens and earth, animals, people, the universe and all there is, what more does God need to prove that He is sovereign?

Seems to be you that is lacking faith that God will have happen what He will let happen.

Maybe pray about this.

 

[Job8]

God, in Calvin, is in compete and total monopolistic control of the world, right down to the smallest details.

And that is one of the errors of Calvinism. Taking this idea to its logical conclusion, God then becomes responsible for the very things which He hates! Amazing how theologians create their own traps by trying to be wiser than God.

 

[Albion]

And that is one of the errors of Calvinism. Taking this idea to its logical conclusion, God then becomes responsible for the very things which He hates! Amazing how theologians create their own traps by trying to be wiser than God.

Well, what it proves is that Hoghead1 is mistaken in his view of Calvinism, not that Calvinism itself teaches what you are rejecting here in your post.

 

[Job8]

So luck and chance rule this world and not it's Creator?

Since I said nothing about *luck* and *chance* that is your own invention. But the truth according to Scripture (and as confirmed by observation) is that God has indeed created men as free moral agents and they are ALLOWED to do evil or good in this life. But there is a final reckoning and a final judgment. Even for Christians, the Judgement Seat of Christ will weigh every word and action. If we misrepresent God, Christ, the Gospel, and Bible truth in this life, we shall certainly be held accountable. Any theologian or preacher who asserts that God predestines some for Hell when Scripture says otherwise will be judged very severely.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Do you believe that God is sovereign, and that ALL things happen according to His will? Or do you believe in luck and chance in a randomly generated chaotic world where God hopes that things work out in His favor?

Then under your same thoughts of Calvinism, God had Adam & Eve eat the fruit in the garden and knew it would happen and according to His will?

You cannot say ALL THINGS and not include ALL THINGS.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Everything does happen according to God's will. But God's perfect will does not necessarily correspond to His permissive will. Because of God's foreknowledge and His omniscience, nothing takes God by surprise. However He allows many things which are in conflict with His character, including all the sin and evil around us. God is indeed sovereign, but He is not responsible for what evildoers say and do. At the same time, all of Nature is in His perfect control, even when he allows Satan to use natural phenomena against men.

I agree with the premise, but do not think permissive will should be used, because to me it is confusing.

I think it is much easier to use free-choice and God does not interfere, although He knows. Because God is not held to time, like a past, present and the future. So I think time needs to be removed from the equation, because only we see time.

 

[ToBeLoved]

And that is one of the errors of Calvinism. Taking this idea to its logical conclusion, God then becomes responsible for the very things which He hates! Amazing how theologians create their own traps by trying to be wiser than God.

Yup.

Because if you say He predestines EVERYTHING, than it's EVERYTHING.

Even satan and the anti-Christ.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Yup.

Because if you say He predestines EVERYTHING, than it's EVERYTHING.

Even satan and the anti-Christ.

God does predestine EVERYTHING that exists and EVERYTHING that those things do. That does indeed include Satan and the anti-Christ and all that they do.

And that is one of the errors of Calvinism. Taking this idea to its logical conclusion, God then becomes responsible for the very things which He hates! Amazing how theologians create their own traps by trying to be wiser than God.

God is "responsible" for everything that He predestines to happen. That includes the things that He hates.

Angels and men are also responsible for everything that they do - including the things that God hates.

Angels and men who do the things that God hates will be punished for them.

God who predestines the things that He hates to take place will be glorified through them.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God does predestine EVERYTHING that exists and EVERYTHING that those things do. That does indeed include Satan and the anti-Christ and all that they do.

God is "responsible" for everything that He predestines to happen. That includes the things that He hates.

Angels and men are also responsible for everything that they do - including the things that God hates.

Angels and men who do the things that God hates will be punished for them.

God who predestines the things that He hates to take place will be glorified through them.

Well my Bible tells me that God can only give good things. So how He can predestine sin is beyond me.

That is a way slippery slope then.

If I beleived what you believe that would be a big thing to me.

Then one could believe that God does not lead us to righteousness but to all sorts of stuff.

Then one would have to explain how "He works all things for good for those who love Him" . But in the realm of predestining sin.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God does predestine EVERYTHING that exists and EVERYTHING that those things do. That does indeed include Satan and the anti-Christ and all that they do.

God is "responsible" for everything that He predestines to happen. That includes the things that He hates.

Angels and men are also responsible for everything that they do - including the things that God hates.

Angels and men who do the things that God hates will be punished for them.

God who predestines the things that He hates to take place will be glorified through them.

That does not make sense. Can you share your scripture to support predestination by God of the things He hates.

 

[Hoghead1]

Well, what it proves is that Hoghead1 is mistaken in his view of Calvinism, not that Calvinism itself teaches what you are rejecting here in your post.

What is your evidence here, Albion?