Calvinism, explained.

[ToBeLoved]

They are linked, and you wouldn't speak to me that way in person, so please don't do it simply because you feel some autonomy from the interweb.

If no one makes untrue Biblical statements, there is nothing to correct.

 

[nobdysfool]

I believe that we can pray for more faith. I have and gotten it.

Why is praying for faith so not allowed?

No one has disallowed praying for faith! Where do you get that idea from? Who has said that?

We are enjoined to pray for faith in Scripture, not only for ourselves, but for others.

Notice I said "we", i.e. Believers. God does not hear the prayers of sinners.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No one has disallowed praying for faith! Where do you get that idea from? Who has said that?
We are enjoined to pray for faith in Scripture, not only for ourselves, but for others.
Notice I said "we", i.e. Believers. God does not hear the prayers of sinners.

So you are telling me that Jesus Christ would not hear the prayers of a sinner who was requesting from God additional faith in God? I'd like to see the verses.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So you are telling me that Jesus Christ would not hear the prayers of a sinner who was requesting from God additional faith in God? I'd like to see the verses.

Wow! Are you serious? This is what he said: "No one has disallowed praying for faith!"

 

[ToBeLoved]

Wow! Are you serious? This is what he said: "No one has disallowed praying for faith!"

I was asking the poster that I 'replied' to if this is what they were saying in that post.

That person said "God does not hear the prayers of sinners" meaning I believe unsaved, but I am getting clarification. So what do you make of this second comment then with the first?

Don't just cherry pick out my text, when I am seeking clarification. Then just reply to what I said in isolation.

 

[tulipbee]

I was asking the poster that I 'replied' to if this is what they were saying in that post.

That person said "God does not hear the prayers of sinners" meaning I believe unsaved, but I am getting clarification. So what do you make of this second comment then with the first?

Don't just cherry pick out my text, when I am seeking clarification. Then just reply to what I said in isolation.

Now why would God need to hear what the unbelievers want to say when God is the one that does the choosing? If a person is not chosen then what's the point of hearing the babbles of an unbeliever when the goats don't want to believe? You're making up stories and then demand God to answer your questions. No wonder he didnt respond to you. He didn't hear you.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Now why would God need to hear what the unbelievers want to say when God is the one that does the choosing? If a person is not chosen then what's the point of hearing the babbles of an unbeliever when the goats don't want to believe? You're making up stories and then demand God to answer your questions. No wonder he didnt respond to you. He didn't hear you.

Please follow the conversation I was in. I have explained what I was doing which was asking for clarification.

I do not appreciate you not following the conversation fully and then demeaning me for asking a question about what someone else said and if what I got out of their post was correct. Notice the question and asking for clarification if i understood them correctly.

 

[nobdysfool]

So you are telling me that Jesus Christ would not hear the prayers of a sinner who was requesting from God additional faith in God? I'd like to see the verses.

First off, the sinner is a euphemism for the unsaved. As such he would not be asking God for additional faith in God.
Romans 1:18 ff.

Why would God listen to the prayers or other babblings of the unsaved?

I think I made myself clear in what I posted. I don't know why you need clarification.

 

[ToBeLoved]

First off, the sinner is a euphemism for the unsaved. As such he would not be asking God for additional faith in God.
Romans 1:18 ff.

Why would God listen to the prayers or other babblings of the unsaved?

I think I made myself clear in what I posted. I don't know why you need clarification.

Well I disagree. I think if an unsaved person is having trouble finding enough faith to trust that Jesus is real and died for them on the cross as Savior, then I believe if they pray for faith, God will give them more faith in Him. If the person is asking for true faith in Him.

Praying to God is unrighteous for an unsaved person?

This is the kind of advice that does not plant seeds for the gospel, but serves to plant thorns.

For the saved person, why not pray for more faith? Do you trust and walk with God in all you do? Why would praying for more faith not help a believer?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I believe that we can pray for more faith. I have and gotten it.

Why is praying for faith so not allowed?

It is allowed.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I wonder how many here have read the Canons of Dort!

Count me in.

 

[EmSw]

First off, the sinner is a euphemism for the unsaved. As such he would not be asking God for additional faith in God.
Romans 1:18 ff.

Are you a sinner NF?

Why would God listen to the prayers or other babblings of the unsaved?

Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Isaiah 1
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Jeremiah 11
10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
11 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.

It's not the unsaved whom God does not hear, but those who hold iniquity in their hearts, and do not cease to do evil.

 

[nobdysfool]

Are you a sinner NF?

A former sinner, saved by Grace.

Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Isaiah 1
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Jeremiah 11
10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
11 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.

It's not the unsaved whom God does not hear, but those who hold iniquity in their hearts, and do not cease to do evil.

Which, by definition, makes them unsaved, and therefore unheard.

You're engaging in circular reasoning. You basically just said it is not the unsaved whom God does not hear, but the unsaved whom God does not hear.

 

[nobdysfool]

Well I disagree. I think if an unsaved person is having trouble finding enough faith to trust that Jesus is real and died for them on the cross as Savior, then I believe if they pray for faith, God will give them more faith in Him. If the person is asking for true faith in Him.

You assume that an unsaved person will, of their own accord and by their own effort, seek God for more faith. Scripture says that doesn't happen.

Praying to God is unrighteous for an unsaved person?

Not what I said. I said God does not hear the prayers of sinners. I said nothing about righteousness, but sinners, by definition, are unrighteous.
Connect the dots....

This is the kind of advice that does not plant seeds for the gospel, but serves to plant thorns.

We're not talking about evangelism here, but consider that telling the truth is always better than trying to sugar coat it (which amounts to lying about it). Evangelism does not depend on our clever words, or eloquent speech, it depends on God's Grace and Him opening the hearts of men to hear , and by hearing, believe.

For the saved person, why not pray for more faith? Do you trust and walk with God in all you do? Why would praying for more faith not help a believer?

Of course it would and neither I or others have said otherwise. Why are you having such a hard time with this? I have spoken plainly, but your questions are not arising from what I have said. What's the real agenda here?

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is the type of stuff Calvinists say. Perfect example.

No one cares or desires in any shape or form to come to Christ in any way that is not 'predestined'.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I didn't say that at all.

What I said is that if an unsaved person thinks Jesus Christ existed, but is lacking the faith to know for sure, that that person can pray to God for more faith.

So there is a degree of faith/belief there already.

How do you know that that person is not being called by God through that miniscule belief and the desire to pray?

Your position is irrational because the person already has a small, but significant showing of faith in that they desire to pray for more faith.

We are not talking about someone who prays when their spouse is dying with a hope that by a miracle there is a God and that God will help them.

Jesus said that no one who comes to me will I cast away.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Jesus said that no one who comes to me will I cast away.

He also said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. . ." (John 6:44)

Any indication of faith, even a tiny bit, is an indication of the Father's drawing, not the person's seeking.

 

[ToBeLoved]

We're not talking about evangelism here, but consider that telling the truth is always better than trying to sugar coat it (which amounts to lying about it). Evangelism does not depend on our clever words, or eloquent speech, it depends on God's Grace and Him opening the hearts of men to hear , and by hearing, believe.

So, if on CF I am talking to someone that is doubting total belief, but still thinks they might believe and I tell them to pray for more faith that is not evangelism?

Those are cleaver words and elegant speech?

I am clever, but not clever enough to be so simple.

 

[ToBeLoved]

He also said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. . ." (John 6:44)

Any indication of faith, even a tiny bit, is an indication of the Father's drawing, not the person's seeking.

So how is a unsaved person praying for more faith from God, not being drawn by God to pray for more faith?

Would this person praying to God for additional faith to believe, not be drawn by God? Can't have it both ways.

What if they become saved after. God was not listening to their prayer for more faith, so they just got more faith themselves?

That proves your point.

The people in Exploring Christianity asking for advice are not being drawn by God. They came to a Christian Forum, not being drawn by God to get advice on how to not find God. Further ignoring all suggestions about God in Exploring Christainity. Interesting.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So how is a unsaved person praying for more faith from God, not being drawn by God to pray for more faith?

Would this person praying to God for additional faith to believe, not be drawn by God? Can't have it both ways.

What if they become saved after. God was not listening to their prayer for more faith, so they just got more faith themselves?

That proves your point.

The people in Exploring Christianity asking for advice are not being drawn by God. They came to a Christian Forum, not being drawn by God to get advice on how to not find God. Further ignoring all suggestions about God in Exploring Christainity. Interesting.

No one, least of all me, said that a prayer for increased faith was wrong or would not be answered. What has been said are two things:

1) An unregenerate person i.e. "sinner" does not, of his our accord ask God for faith. Sinners don't seek God.

2) Someone with even a weak faith has been granted that faith by God, and he may, and should ask God to increase his faith, and he can expect an answer to that prayer, although, in my own experience, that is a dangerous prayer to pray. Gaining faith in God often comes by losing something/everything else, and that is a painful process, but of infinite worth.