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No, that is not what Calvin had in mind. God knew ahead of time what was going to happen, precisely because God decided and predetermined ahead of time what was to happen, right down to the smallest detail. Hence, we are not free to choose salvation or no. We are born either reprobate or elect and can do nothing about this. Also, the biblical passages you are referring to do not all show God knew it all ahead of time. Indeed, may passages suggest otherwise, pointing out God's knowledge of the future is "iffy," as we find in the case of Sodom and also Jer. 18.
What Calvinism doesn't understand is God is not held to 'time' as we are on earth. So of course with God being Omnipresent He knows, but we still live our lives with free-will because we are held to 'time'.It cannot contradict, because God knew how he would create the world, what would happen, and how he would end it and restore creation after the tribulation. God knows all, he knew who would accept him and who would not. We have free will to choose, but God knows, and knew what we would choose. This is not a contradiction because both are true. It may seem like one, but that is because we, in our finite minds, cannot even dream to fully understand God. God is infinite and knows all. Here are a few verses that show is omniscience:
“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).
“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).
“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).
“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).
“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).
“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).
“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).
“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).
“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).
“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).
“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).
“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).
“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).
If God did not know who would be saved, then he is not omniscient and this contradicts the scripture. But what about free will? Free will must first be defined. If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.
However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.
This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).
In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.
Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).
But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.
Not a contradiction, we are just unable to fathom his infinity.
In order to say everything is predetermined is also to say that God predetermined the sin of Adam & Eve.I don't believe that to be correct, it doesn't sound right.
The way I understood him is that of course we have and make choices, anybody can see that, it's just that they are predetermined. Cement, robots, all those clumsy analogies are more emotional hot buttons on our ego than they are good analogies.
"Free" is free of meaning itself, without the limitations of context.
Wouldn't make for an exciting redemption story if they hadn't chosen disobedience. Don't you think?In order to say everything is predetermined is also to say that God predetermined the sin of Adam & Eve.
So how do you explain God predetermining sin? When God is perfect.
They have to know God to make a true statement.I don't believe that to be correct, it doesn't sound right.
The way I understood him is that of course we have and make choices, anybody can see that, it's just that they are predetermined. Cement, robots, all those clumsy analogies are more emotional hot buttons on our ego than they are good analogies.
"Free" is free of meaning itself, without the limitations of context.
So you are saying that God predetermined sin? Then now you really have to explain the contridictions to this in the Bible.Wouldn't make for an exciting redemption story if they hadn't chosen disobedience. Don't you think?
If even the Angels and Satan himself are not permitted to operate beyond their nature limited by the confines of God's will, what makes you think we can?
Was Satan's nature always evil? It's hard to say, but it is safe to assume his purpose in this world was unique by design.So you are saying that God predetermined sin? Then now you really have to explain the contridictions to this in the Bible.
So if Satan's nature was always evil, why did God give him one of the highest positions in heaven?
So then you are saying Satan fooled God with his nature? That would then mean if God can be fooled, He is not perfect. Because if Satan, formerly Lucifer was a very high angel, then became Satan did God change his nature?
How do you explain this?
I want to hear the entire Calvinist logic responding to all the Bible in truth and cohesive way. I've just never found anyone who knows.
But you said that the angels and Satan live out there nature's predestined and given to them by God.Was Satan's nature always evil? It's hard to say, but it is safe to assume his purpose in this world was unique by design.
Only God can alter the nature of His creatures.
"He has made everything beautiful in its time." (Ecclesiastes 3:11)
"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." (Proverbs 16:4)
"Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose'" (Isaiah 46:10)
But you said that the angels and Satan live out there nature's predestined and given to them by God.
So now if you are saying you do not know, you are contridicting what you previously said.
Also, these verses are about human beings, not angels or satan. You need different verses to support the differences between human beings and angels/Satan. Two totally different creations. Satan's future is already set.
In Calvin, however, everything, right down to the smallest detail, was all planned out by God ahead of time and can happen no other way than God planned it. So, according to Calvin, God did no think up Hell after he saw something happening in the world. God had this in mind, all planned out, set in cement, before the foundation's of the world were ever laid. Also, a major famous debate was whether God first thought of the Fall and then salvation or election, or whether God fist thought of election and then the Fall. Either way, there were problems. If, for example,. God first thought up election, then God condemned people before they did a thing.Jesus tells us hell was made for the devil and his angels.
Which leads you to think that, God created hell after they fell.
When did they fall? It seems after God made heaven, and perhaps after He made Adam and Eve.
They rebelled and fell in Satan tempting Adam and Eve. This is also when God laid His curse on Satan.
And we have in Genesis God calling everything he had made good.
Before the sun and stars, before He made heaven, God made light and said it was good.
Gen 1
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”
7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
They fell before Satan tempted Adam & Eve. Otherwise how would the other angels have fallen?Jesus tells us hell was made for the devil and his angels.
Which leads you to think that, God created hell after they fell.
When did they fall? It seems after God made heaven, and perhaps after He made Adam and Eve.
They rebelled and fell in Satan tempting Adam and Eve. This is also when God laid His curse on Satan.
Jesus tells us hell was made for the devil and his angels.
Which leads you to think that, God created hell after they fell.
When did they fall? It seems after God made heaven, and perhaps after He made Adam and Eve.
They rebelled and fell in Satan tempting Adam and Eve. This is also when God laid His curse on Satan.
And we have in Genesis God calling everything he had made good.
Before the sun and stars, before He made heaven, God made light and said it was good.
Gen 1
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”
7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
Calvinism has never made sense when all of the Bible is taken into account.In Calvin, however, everything, right down to the smallest detail, was all planned out by God ahead of time and can happen no other way than God planned it. So, according to Calvin, God did no think up Hell after he saw something happening in the world. God had this in mind, all planned out, set in cement, before the foundation's of the world were ever laid. Also, a major famous debate was whether God first thought of the Fall and then salvation or election, or whether God fist thought of election and then the Fall. Either way, there were problems. If, for example,. God first thought up election, then God condemned people before they did a thing.
If God predestined it all, I'm interested in how it happened. Can you explain?Wouldn't make for an exciting redemption story if they hadn't chosen disobedience. Don't you think?
If even the Angels and Satan himself are not permitted to operate beyond their nature limited by the confines of God's will, what makes you think we can?
I want to hear the entire Calvinist logic responding to all the Bible in truth and cohesive way. I've just never found anyone who knows.
Hopefully someone can lay it all out, but I've been asking for two years and no one has been able to, so you see why I am not holding my breath.
No need for you or anyone else to hold their breath.If God predestined it all, I'm interested in how it happened. Can you explain?
Well don't then. I've never read a full explanation that answers.No need for you or anyone else to hold their breath.
Not only can I explain how the predestination of all that happens in God's creation is perfectly compatible with the free will of the creation - I have explained it many times.
You just won't accept it. So I won't be doing it again here.
I'm not necessarily aiming this at you. But people love to trot out their bogus puppet/robot/automaton shtick.
Once it is explained to them how those words are not a fitting analogy of the concept of predestination - they are robbed of their favorite red herring argument.
Then it seems that they quickly and conveniently try to forget or at least not acknowledge what they have been taught so that they can continue to use the only argument they can think of against predestination.
Where does the Bible say that.Creation of earth occurred in Genesis. Heaven already existed in some form.
Yes, that is the way Calvin had it. Everyone deserves to go to Hell. Calvin said that even among the "pillars of the church," there is not one person who has not sinned to the extent that God would not be justified in sending him or her to Hell instantly. A few lucky ones, however, were given a reprieve solely by God's free grace alone and so not for anything they did. They, not the ones sent to Hell, were treated unjustly, since they, too, deserved Hell and so shouldn't complain about the injustice of God predestining others to Hell.The one thing that keeps getting glossed over is that Hell is the default destination for mankind, apart from God's Grace. God's Justice demands Hell for sinners, and all mankind are sinners apart from God's Grace. That Justice is Pure, Right, Righteous, and Deserved. Any man's (or woman or child's) ONLY hope is the God of Israel. There is no other way. And God has structured it in such a way that no man can come to God on his own terms, man comes to God on God's terms or he doesn't come at all. Them's the hard, cold facts.
The one thing that keeps getting glossed over is that Hell is the default destination for mankind, apart from God's Grace. God's Justice demands Hell for sinners, and all mankind are sinners apart from God's Grace. That Justice is Pure, Right, Righteous, and Deserved. Any man's (or woman or child's) ONLY hope is the God of Israel. There is no other way. And God has structured it in such a way that no man can come to God on his own terms, man comes to God on God's terms or he doesn't come at all. Them's the hard, cold facts.
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