Calvinism and Abortion

[Mark Quayle]

Is that a No?

No.

So "All" doesn't mean "All"? Can you help me and explain this contextually then because I'm a bit stuck?

I didn't say all doesn't mean all. I am saying it is used to mean other than how you take it.

I assume you are referring to the 1 Timothy 2 reference.
Here's a link to a guy who says it means "all kinds of people" contextually, who I don't think has any affiliation with Calvinistic or Reformed churches. Christ Died For All People | Unlocking the Bible

He says: "Does all mean “every single person” or “all kinds of people”? Here are three reasons to interpret all as “all kinds of people…”

• That’s what all means in verse 1. God does not expect us to pray for every single person, but for all kinds of people.
• The Bible never suggests every single person will be saved. Some will enter everlasting life, others everlasting destruction.
• The word ransom means “payment of a price.” If Christ paid for the sins of “every single person,” hell would be filled with people whose sins were already paid for.

God wants all kinds of people to be saved. Christ gave his life to ransom all kinds of people."

I agree with that last sentence: That the context is about that very thing, that people of all kinds are to be saved. Notice Paul's reference to his being sent to the Gentiles in verse 7.

2: 1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Verse 5 shows the other possible use of "all": That there is only one way. I agree with that, though I admit the first use (that of "all" being a reference to both Jew and Gentile) may be the correct use. What I can't admit is to the notion that Christ indeed paid for the sins of absolutely everyone who ever existed.

 

[Hmm]

What I can't admit is to the notion that Christ indeed paid for the sins of absolutely everyone who ever existed.

And from that you draw the conclusion that there are some people, the ones Christ didn't die for (according to you), who can't be saved?

As I asked you earlier and which you didn't answer, is there anyway of knowing if you're one of the lucky ones, the Elect, who Christ did die for, or one of the unfortunates whi Christ didn't die for? Do they have any distinguishing features for example?

 

[StillGods]

I would like to believe all aborted babies go to be with Jesus, they have had no chance to have a life that God wanted them to, it is so awful. God is Merciful. I would like to think He gathers the lambs in His arms and carries them close to His heart.
I believe there is an age of understanding.

 

[zoidar]

But elect infants were justified by Christ's death and go to heaven which is as good as it gets.

IMO crazy thinking. Babies are neither elect or not elect. Elect are those people that get born again by the Holy Spirit (whether it's by predestination or not).

 

[Maria Billingsley]

As I was thinking on total depravity and the west-borrow baptist church(calvinist extremists), I had this thought about calvinism taken to its logical end. What are your thoughts on this?

A calvinist would say that God hates sin and the sinner(hence Limited Atonement):

“The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And we glorify God in His holiness and judgement of sin. So lets take this to its logical extreme:

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭51:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


So how does a calvinist take issue with abortion? If an infant has sinful nature at conception, and dies in the womb, shouldnt the calvinist glorify God for punishing the sinner? Shouldnt calvinists glorify abortion because God is judging sinners?

Thank God the opposite is true! The innocent are saved.

 

[Mark Quayle]

And from that you draw the conclusion that there are some people, the ones Christ didn't die for (according to you), who can't be saved?

As I asked you earlier and which you didn't answer, is there anyway of knowing if you're one of the lucky ones, the Elect, who Christ did die for, or one of the unfortunates whi Christ didn't die for? Do they have any distinguishing features for example?

No. Once again, it is YOUR conclusion, this time to say that (according to Calvinism) there are some who can't be saved. Who is to say for whom Christ died, and will regenerate, and will raise up to himself on the last day? Nobody is beyond Christ's ability to save --that's hardly the question.

There are no distinguishing features before regeneration concerning who is and who is not elect, except to God --and that difference is HIS choice. All have sinned, nobody deserves God's mercy. Is that clear enough? I've said it many different ways.

 

[dms1972]

As far as I can understand, the doctrine of Limited Atonement is from Theodore Beza.

Calvin however in several places affirms Christ's blood was shed for the whole human race. For example Calvin's commentary on Mark 14:

Mark 14 Commentary - John Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible

"Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse. It must at the same time be observed, however, that by the words for you, as related by Luke — Christ directly addresses the disciples, and exhorts every believer to apply to his own advantage the shedding of blood Therefore, when we approach to the holy table, let us not only remember in general that the world has been redeemed by the blood of Christ, but let every one consider for himself that his own sins have been expiated."

See also his commentary on John 1:29 and Romans 5:18

Calvin also says in his Institutes that until faith is given "all that He (Jesus Christ) has suffered and done for the salvation of the human race remains useless and of no value to us." Institutes III. i. 1.

RT Kendall says that Calvin unlike Beza did not believe that the decree of election was rendered effectual by Christ's death, ie. that all for whom Christ died must be saved. (See Calvin and English Calvinism: RT Kendall)

 

[Mark Quayle]

One Calvinist I knew personally told me that aborted babies go to hell. I definitely don’t agree with that false line of thinking.

God can (and will) do whatever he chooses to do. If they are, in fact, without sin, there is no condemnation for them, but be secure in your knowledge that God will not punish them more than they deserve. Fact is, we don't know all the facts.

But by what Scripture says, I cannot find anywhere to show that they will indeed be in Heaven with the rest of the Elect. I do hope so, but it doesn't look like it. There is one place that says there will be a number that no one can count, which suggests the possibility that an uncounted number of unborns are indeed in heaven. But I cannot prove it.

Meanwhile, I want to say this: That God will do as he will, and he is able to make himself known even to those human souls who we might consider to be mindless.

You can believe that God is just, regardless of what any Calvinist or Arminian might say. But KNOW that it is God's prerogative, not ours, to determine such things.

 

[mlepfitjw]

What do you think God does about it?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God can (and will) do whatever he chooses to do. If they are, in fact, without sin, there is no condemnation for them, but be secure in your knowledge that God will not punish them more than they deserve. Fact is, we don't know all the facts.

But by what Scripture says, I cannot find anywhere to show that they will indeed be in Heaven with the rest of the Elect. I do hope so, but it doesn't look like it. There is one place that says there will be a number that no one can count, which suggests the possibility that an uncounted number of unborns are indeed in heaven. But I cannot prove it.

Meanwhile, I want to say this: That God will do as he will, and he is able to make himself known even to those human souls who we might consider to be mindless.

You can believe that God is just, regardless of what any Calvinist or Arminian might say. But KNOW that it is God's prerogative, not ours, to determine such things.

Right, and if God is just, He will not punish babies because they are incapable of being aware of any form of right and wrong in order to sin. Yes, their bodies are tainted by the sin of Adam, but Jesus reversed the curse so that they would not face the second death. Babies are not aware of any law; And the Scriptures say that sin is not imputed where there is no law.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What do you think God does about it?

About abortion? "Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom it comes."

 

[Mark Quayle]

Right, and if God is just, He will not punish babies because they are incapable of being aware of any form of right and wrong in order to sin. Yes, their bodies are tainted by the sin of Adam, but Jesus reversed the curse so that they would not face the second death. Babies are not aware of any law; And the Scriptures say that sin is not imputed where there is no law.

Be careful of your applications. Do not inject doctrine where mere logic takes you (yes, I know, I do that too). We do not know enough to say Jesus reversed the curse for them.

Whether baby or adult, if one is set at enmity to God, their every thought is enmity, no matter how ignorant or "innocent". Their will is altogether tainted, if they are indeed under Adam's curse. Awareness, comprehension, is not the issue, though yes, as one becomes aware they are further to blame if they do not repent.

 

[StillGods]

Be careful of your applications. Do not inject doctrine where mere logic takes you (yes, I know, I do that too). We do not know enough to say Jesus reversed the curse for them.

Whether baby or adult, if one is set at enmity to God, their every thought is enmity, no matter how ignorant or "innocent". Their will is altogether tainted, if they are indeed under Adam's curse. Awareness, comprehension, is not the issue, though yes, as one becomes aware they are further to blame if they do not repent.

so cold

 

[StillGods]

What do you think God does about it?

grieves

 

[Mark Quayle]

so cold

Sentimentality is a poor doctrine guide.

 

[Liam Hayden]

Westboro are hyper-Calvinists, which is a misnomer because they go beyond Calvin or any of the Reformers. Then again, they are really just a hate group that (mis)uses Scripture to attack others, so they can rightly be judges as a heretical cult.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Westboro are hyper-Calvinists, which is a misnomer because they go beyond Calvin or any of the Reformers. Then again, they are really just a hate group that (mis)uses Scripture to attack others, so they can rightly be judges as a heretical cult.

Like all of us, they will answer to God himself.

 

[StillGods]

Sentimentality is a poor doctrine guide.

maybe but coldness is rarely of God in my experience, and my family has experienced the horror and tragedy that abortion brings, but also seen the incredible compassion and mercy of God, also seen Him healing depths of pain around it. God is anything but cold when it comes to the destruction of life in any context.
another reason a lot of Calvinism does not seem to fit with the God I mercifully have been allowed to experience.

 

[Mark Quayle]

maybe but coldness is rarely of God in my experience, and my family has experienced the horror and tragedy that abortion brings, but also seen the incredible compassion and mercy of God, also seen Him healing depths of pain around it. God is anything but cold when it comes to the destruction of life in any context.
another reason a lot of Calvinism does not seem to fit with the God I mercifully have been allowed to experience.

I agree the logic of truth can seem cold, and even that the precise and thorough justice of God can come across as cold, to those who esteem the Calvinist God on their presumptions concerning Calvinism. But you would have a hard time, I think, to consider what Calvinists think of God to be cold, when you read Calvinists. Take a look, for example, at John Owen's "The Mortification of Sin", if no other way, by reading some of his quotes from the book. He was not about the cold structure of Calvinism, nor even about denial of choice. His focus was more about the duty, and even the privilege, of works. Intense works. And he gives reasons, logic, that can hardly be taken for "cold".

 

[Hmm]

No. Once again, it is YOUR conclusion, this time to say that (according to Calvinism) there are some who can't be saved.

Not at all. I was just asking you a simple question and hoping for a simple answer which I still haven't got. I was asking if it was your conclusion.

Let me ask it again. You say that Christ did not die for all people. Obviously that's not scriptural but, playing along, my question is Does that mean that the people who Christ didn't die for can't be saved?

I don't understand sure you are so reluctant to give a simple Yes or No answer to this