Calvinism and Abortion

[Isilwen]

Capone and Dillinger had aproval too.

As I said, I allow for choice. They can choose to have an abortion or not. It is up to them to decide. I will not make that choice for them.

 

[Dave L]

As I said, I allow for choice. They can choose to have an abortion or not. It is up to them to decide. I will not make that choice for them.

Just so it isn't you they are taking the ax to?

 

[Tree of Life]

As I said, I allow for choice. They can choose to have an abortion or not. It is up to them to decide. I will not make that choice for them.

Murder is also a personal choice. That doesn't mean that we should legalize it.

 

[nolidad]

As I was thinking on total depravity and the west-borrow baptist church(calvinist extremists), I had this thought about calvinism taken to its logical end. What are your thoughts on this?

A calvinist would say that God hates sin and the sinner(hence Limited Atonement):

“The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And we glorify God in His holiness and judgement of sin. So lets take this to its logical extreme:

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭51:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


So how does a calvinist take issue with abortion? If an infant has sinful nature at conception, and dies in the womb, shouldnt the calvinist glorify God for punishing the sinner? Shouldnt calvinists glorify abortion because God is judging sinners?

God takes no delight in the death of the wicked. Neither should we.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

What you forget is that God knows those who are His. But we don't! We are commanded to give the gospel to all. God sorts out the rest.

 

[Redwingfan9]

As I was thinking on total depravity and the west-borrow baptist church(calvinist extremists), I had this thought about calvinism taken to its logical end. What are your thoughts on this?

A calvinist would say that God hates sin and the sinner(hence Limited Atonement):

“The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And we glorify God in His holiness and judgement of sin. So lets take this to its logical extreme:

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭51:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


So how does a calvinist take issue with abortion? If an infant has sinful nature at conception, and dies in the womb, shouldnt the calvinist glorify God for punishing the sinner? Shouldnt calvinists glorify abortion because God is judging sinners?

Your question is ridiculous and serves no other purpose but to insinuate that Calvinists are so evil that they ought to love abortion.

Reformed Christians believe we are called to live holy lives. There is nothing holy about the unlawful taking of life, as evidenced by the 10 commandments. I know of no Calvinist who rejoices over abortion or who would ever cite these passages and say they justify abortion. Any claim that reformed people believe or should believe this is nothing short of slander.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

As I said, I allow for choice. They can choose to have an abortion or not. It is up to them to decide. I will not make that choice for them.

Should we just legalize all murder then and leave it up to each person to decide if they want to kill someone or not?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Are you saying that abortion only ever happens because God actively wills it as a condemnation of infantile sinfulness?

I'm not a Calvinist, but I'm curious to hear responses to my question from both the OP and any Calvinist who'd care to weigh in.

Why? This isn't even a serious thread...

pretty much every Baptist church and primitive baptist church in the country, let alone the world, has soundly denounced Westboro, but suddenly your associating all calvinists with literally only 1 family in the entire world.

Now your accusing we should glorify sin and evil and praise it's occurrence... give me a break.

You want a serious discussion make a serious thread.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

As I was thinking on total depravity and the west-borrow baptist church(calvinist extremists), I had this thought about calvinism taken to its logical end. What are your thoughts on this?

A calvinist would say that God hates sin and the sinner(hence Limited Atonement):

“The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And we glorify God in His holiness and judgement of sin. So lets take this to its logical extreme:

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭51:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


So how does a calvinist take issue with abortion? If an infant has sinful nature at conception, and dies in the womb, shouldnt the calvinist glorify God for punishing the sinner? Shouldnt calvinists glorify abortion because God is judging sinners?

I'm not a calvinist, but I wouldn't use Westboro as an example of anything Christian, since they appear to be trolling.

 

[Yesha]

As I was thinking on total depravity and the west-borrow baptist church(calvinist extremists), I had this thought about calvinism taken to its logical end. What are your thoughts on this?

A calvinist would say that God hates sin and the sinner(hence Limited Atonement):

“The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And we glorify God in His holiness and judgement of sin. So lets take this to its logical extreme:

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭51:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So how does a calvinist take issue with abortion? If an infant has sinful nature at conception, and dies in the womb, shouldnt the calvinist glorify God for punishing the sinner? Shouldnt calvinists glorify abortion because God is judging sinners?

A Calvinist, like any other Christian, can take issue with abortion because it violates the Sixth Commandment. I am not quite sure how you conclude from total depravity that a Calvinist should "glorify abortion" when it is plainly a transgression against God's holy law.

 

[Mark Quayle]

A calvinist would say that God hates sin and the sinner(hence Limited Atonement):

"Limited Atonement" is derived from Scripture and reason, from the fact that Christ on the cross did indeed pay for sins --(as opposed to making payment available). Since not all will end up in Heaven, then, it stands to reason that he only payed for some, or he paid in vain for most, since they will end up paying themselves also.

The issue of him hating sin and the sinner is not the point. He doesn't refuse to grant them clemency because he hates them, if indeed he did not pay for their sin, but because they are simply not the ones he has chosen to redeem. His reason for creating was not for the purpose of causing suffering, but for (to his own glory) creating a people particularly for himself. The Bride. All else is what it takes to do that.

So how does a calvinist take issue with abortion? If an infant has sinful nature at conception, and dies in the womb, shouldnt the calvinist glorify God for punishing the sinner? Shouldnt calvinists glorify abortion because God is judging sinners?

You have GOT to be kidding! We accept God's doings regardless of what they are --we decry the sin by which many of them are done. We stand by both: "Though he slay me, yet will I praise him." and "Such things must come, but woe to him through whom they come."

You may as well say that we teach that we should sin that grace may abound. We do no such thing.

 

[Yesha]

As I said, I allow for choice. They can choose to have an abortion or not. It is up to them to decide. I will not make that choice for them.

Friend, your moral indifference to an act that destroys a human life is disturbing. I urge you to consider how your relativistic position undermines the moral ground for opposing any injustice. What would you say to a chattel slave trader if you lived in the American colonies? "I allow for choice. They can choose to mansteal or not. It is up them to decide. I will not make that choice for them."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As I was thinking on total depravity and the west-borrow baptist church(calvinist extremists), I had this thought about calvinism taken to its logical end. What are your thoughts on this?

A calvinist would say that God hates sin and the sinner(hence Limited Atonement):

“The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And we glorify God in His holiness and judgement of sin. So lets take this to its logical extreme:

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭51:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


So how does a calvinist take issue with abortion? If an infant has sinful nature at conception, and dies in the womb, shouldnt the calvinist glorify God for punishing the sinner? Shouldnt calvinists glorify abortion because God is judging sinners?

One Calvinist I knew personally told me that aborted babies go to hell. I definitely don’t agree with that false line of thinking.

 

[Isilwen]

Just so it isn't you they are taking the ax to?

Did I say that? God gives us a choice, to follow him or not. Who am I to force something on someone when not even God does that?

 

[Isilwen]

I realize that my position will not be liked here, but I am okay with that. Don't really care what you all think, to be honest. The older I get, the less I care about what people think of me.

I am pro-choice, that will not change.

 

[Hmm]

Christ on the cross did indeed pay for sins --(as opposed to making payment available). Since not all will end up in Heaven, then, it stands to reason that he only payed for some, or he paid in vain for most, since they will end up paying themselves also.

Which is it? Did he die for "some" or "in vain for most"? These are two different things.

Odd thing though. My Bible says He died for all - is that a typo?

they are simply not the ones he has chosen to redeem

As a matter of (very mild) interest, does anyone know if they're one of the chosen?

 

[Ezana]

Why? This isn't even a serious thread...

pretty much every Baptist church and primitive baptist church in the country, let alone the world, has soundly denounced Westboro, but suddenly your associating all calvinists with literally only 1 family in the entire world.

Now your accusing we should glorify sin and evil and praise it's occurrence... give me a break.

You want a serious discussion make a serious thread.

I'm sorry, were your comments directed toward me? or were you just bouncing off my response to speak to the OP?

 

[Mark Quayle]

As a matter of (very mild) interest, does anyone know if they're one of the chosen?

The Spirit bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

And if anyone comes to Christ, he will not cast them out. That should be a pretty good indicator, though subjectively assessed as well --that is, some may even fool themselves that they actually came to Christ. And there are plenty others, though yes, all subjective in the final analysis, if we are the ones to judge the matter. God, however, is not subjective --that is, to him subjective and objective have to do with his direction of vision, not his kind of judgement.

Which is it? Did he die for "some" or "in vain for most"? These are two different things.

Odd thing though. My Bible says He died for all - is that a typo?

I thought you were part of other conversations where this was dealt with at length. But I did not say he died in vain for anyone. It is those who deny particular redemption who are in the final analysis claiming such a thing, since his payment was indeed actual. If you are still confused, look up "Sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ", or, "Efficiency" concerning the payment.

My Bible says that also. Both Jew and Gentile; as a matter of fact, if anyone's sins are atoned for, it is by Christ. (There is no other way). "All" must be understood contextually.

 

[Mark Quayle]

As a matter of (very mild) interest, does anyone know if they're one of the chosen?

The Spirit bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

And if anyone comes to Christ, he will not cast them out. That should be a pretty good indicator, though subjectively assessed as well --that is, some may even fool themselves that they actually came to Christ.

And there are plenty other indicators, though yes, all subjective in the final analysis, if we are the ones to judge the matter. God, however, is not subjective --that is, to him subjective and objective have to do with his direction of vision, not his kind of judgement, since he is ALWAYS right and just.

 

[Hmm]

The Spirit bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

And if anyone comes to Christ, he will not cast them out. That should be a pretty good indicator, though subjectively assessed as well --that is, some may even fool themselves that they actually came to Christ. And there are plenty others, though yes, all subjective in the final analysis, if we are the ones to judge the matter. God, however, is not subjective --that is, to him subjective and objective have to do with his direction of vision, not his kind of judgement.

Is that a No?

thought you were part of other conversations where this was dealt with at length.

Not me squire. Never discussed Calvinism before.

If you are still confused, look up "Sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ", or, "Efficiency" concerning the payment.

I'm not confused and hope to remain that way so I don't think I will, but thanks

"All" must be understood contextually.

So "All" doesn't mean "All"? Can you help me and explain this contextually then because I'm a bit stuck?

 

[St_Worm2]

As I was thinking on total depravity and the west-borrow baptist church(calvinist extremists), I had this thought about calvinism taken to its logical end. What are your thoughts on this?

Hello Zach, you are talking about the Westboro BAPTIST church, yes? You're Baptist and they are Baptist. Is the Baptist faith practiced at the Westboro Baptist church the logical end for any/all who hold to the Baptist faith

Quite frankly, I don't believe that the Westboro Baptist church is Christian, much less Calvinist or Baptist, no matter what their claim may be.

A calvinist would say that God hates sin and the sinner(hence Limited Atonement).

"Hence Limited Atonement" If Calvinism taught that the atonement is limited to those who are righteous (as you are insinuating), then there would be no atonement, because EVERYONE is a sinner.

The Reformed doctrine of Limited Atonement does not teach what you seem to believe that it does, not even close. If you have any interest in learning what it actually teaches, this should do the trick:

~Limited Atonement by R.C. Sproul​

So how does a calvinist take issue with abortion? If an infant has sinful nature at conception, and dies in the womb, shouldnt the calvinist glorify God for punishing the sinner? Shouldnt calvinists glorify abortion because God is judging sinners?

Where does the Bible tell us to glorify God by "punishing sinners"

That said, the reprobate will be judged on the basis of his/her deeds and thoughts, NOT on the basis of their "nature".

Romans 2
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.
16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.​

--David
p.s. - John Calvin taught that all who die as either pre-born babies or as infants are Heaven-bound, unlike a number of his free will contemporaries (like Servetus) who taught that anyone, of any age, who had not come to a personal, saving faith in Christ before they died, were bound for Judgment at the Great White Throne, and eternity in the Lake of Fire (even if they died in the womb or as infant/toddlers).
.[/QUOTE]