Calvinism and Abortion

StillGods

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
1,506
2,640
North Island
✟291,058.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I agree the logic of truth can seem cold, and even that the precise and thorough justice of God can come across as cold, to those who esteem the Calvinist God on their presumptions concerning Calvinism. But you would have a hard time, I think, to consider what Calvinists think of God to be cold, when you read Calvinists. Take a look, for example, at John Owen's "The Mortification of Sin", if no other way, by reading some of his quotes from the book. He was not about the cold structure of Calvinism, nor even about denial of choice. His focus was more about the duty, and even the privilege, of works. Intense works. And he gives reasons, logic, that can hardly be taken for "cold".

thanks for the thoughts but I did spend time in a calvinist church, read some calvinist things and there is a coldness to it all I couldnt personally live with given what I know beyond knowing about The One True God. nice people at that church though :)
 
Upvote 0

Sovereign Grace

Certified Flunky
Jul 5, 2014
334
109
52
Right here, right now
✟42,336.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
thanks for the thoughts but I did spend time in a calvinist church, read some calvinist things and there is a coldness to it all I couldnt personally live with given what I know beyond knowing about The One True God. nice people at that church though :)
An honest question for you...

On the day of judgment, does God:

1) Love those who are punished in an eternal hell?

Or

2) Go from loving them to hating them as He punishes them in hell?

Oops! That’s two questions. Please forgive me.

In either scenario, if you choose one or the other, you’re choosing an heresy.

To say God loves those who reside in an eternal hell negates Romans 9 and the vessels of wrath(God’s love is never upon those vessels).

To say that God loves them He punishes in an eternal hell makes Him, not only a cruel God, but also mutable, and thereby also denying His immutability, which is an heresy as well.

So which is it? 1 or 2? Oops, that’s 4.
 
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,025
34
Shropshire
✟186,359.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
maybe but coldness is rarely of God in my experience, and my family has experienced the horror and tragedy that abortion brings, but also seen the incredible compassion and mercy of God, also seen Him healing depths of pain around it. God is anything but cold when it comes to the destruction of life in any context.
another reason a lot of Calvinism does not seem to fit with the God I mercifully have been allowed to experience.

Thankfully my experiences of God have also been that He is trustworthy and loving. And look at Jesus in the Bible. He never hated anyone. He loved everyone, even those who hung him on the cross. He "hated" sin because He loved us.

When I look at the some of the descriptions given of God above I feel humble and very thankful that my own experience has been so different.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: StillGods
Upvote 0

StillGods

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
1,506
2,640
North Island
✟291,058.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
An honest question for you...

On the day of judgment, does God:

1) Love those who are punished in an eternal hell?

Or

2) Go from loving them to hating them as He punishes them in hell?

Oops! That’s two questions. Please forgive me.

In either scenario, if you choose one or the other, you’re choosing an heresy.

To say God loves those who reside in an eternal hell negates Romans 9 and the vessels of wrath(God’s love is never upon those vessels).

To say that God loves them He punishes in an eternal hell makes Him, not only a cruel God, but also mutable, and thereby also denying His immutability, which is an heresy as well.

So which is it? 1 or 2? Oops, that’s 4.

God loves every one He has made.
Each person can either accept or reject Jesus, that does not change whether God loves them or not - God loves them for God is Love.
He is not willing that any should persish.
But He is a just God, and as such if a person rejects Jesus there are consequences to that. But Gods love for a person who rejects Him, His creation does not change, He still loves them, He doesnt love their behaviour of rejecting Him, but the person He loves, always has, always will. God showed His love for us by sending His Son to die for sinners. Such love.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

mindlight

See in the dark
Supporter
Dec 20, 2003
13,596
2,659
London, UK
✟816,990.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As I was thinking on total depravity and the west-borrow baptist church(calvinist extremists), I had this thought about calvinism taken to its logical end. What are your thoughts on this?

A calvinist would say that God hates sin and the sinner(hence Limited Atonement):

“The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And we glorify God in His holiness and judgement of sin. So lets take this to its logical extreme:

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭51:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


So how does a calvinist take issue with abortion? If an infant has sinful nature at conception, and dies in the womb, shouldnt the calvinist glorify God for punishing the sinner? Shouldnt calvinists glorify abortion because God is judging sinners?

Yes , but in that sense all children should be aborted and none born at all naturally since all carry the toxicity of sin. The thing about abortion is the playing God with another persons life.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,508
6,395
Midwest
✟78,539.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The Bible doesn't talk about aborted babies' salvation. Their wicked parents (at the time of murdering them) certainly didn't plan to raise them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. God can intervene and prevent abortions. So do we speculate when we aren't sure of answers? I can't speak for God on every question because I don't know everything He knows. What about miscarriages?

We should pray (whether Calvinist or non-Calvinist) for God's will to be done.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,025
34
Shropshire
✟186,359.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
The Bible soesn't talk about aborted babies' salvation... we speculate when we aren't sure of answers?

The Bible tells us that God is loving and just. Therefore He does not send aborted babies to Hell.
 
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

I'm back
Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
9,210
8,689
55
USA
✟676,936.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The Bible soesn't talk about aborted babies' salvation. Their wicked parents (at the time of murdering them) certainly didn't plan to raise them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. God can intervene and prevent abortions. So do we speculate when we aren't sure of answers? I can't speak for God on every question because I don't know everything He knows.

We should pray (whether Calvinist or non-Calvinist) for God's will to be done.

We know God's revealed will through His law, and to go beyond that in the Law of the Spirit in His love. Thou shalt not murder. We know this is God's will for our behavior. Love they neighbor as thyself goes beyond mere not murdering in the Spiritual law.

As Christians we don't know who will someday become Christian, in the 60+ million unborn murders in America since Roe v.Wade, and untold millions worldwide since this program of murdering innocents began, how many of God's people have been killed? How much better might this world have been with all of them in it?

As Christian, through our actions; behavior and our speech, we are to be the light of Christ to a dying world... we aren't that light if we glorify evil, quite the opposite in fact.

We know what God's revealed will is, and that will is not served excusing evil, nor glorying in it. We are to show people the only Lord who is able to save them out of their condition while living lives that He would have us live.

Why God allows such things aren't our concern. We have a mandate, and we know His revealed will. That's all we need to know.

The rest are simply piling burning coals upon their heads.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,508
6,395
Midwest
✟78,539.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The Bible tells us that God is loving and just. Therefore He does not send aborted babies to Hell.

I know that God is just, but you don't argue against Him when a young child dies from cancer, do you?

Psalm 5
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
 
Upvote 0

StillGods

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
1,506
2,640
North Island
✟291,058.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I know that God is just, but you don't argue against Him when a young child dies from cancer, do you?

Psalm 5
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

cancer and being murdered are quite different though,
the baby that was aborted in my family would have had believers as parents and extended family, it would have been taught about God. I believe that baby is with Jesus, I know it, I dont expect others to understand that.
I believe God is good. He has restored much in my family God is a very Merciful God.
a friends daughter was thinking of having an abortion i offered to adopt and look after the baby, but she aborted it anyway - it was another very sad time. these things are not the baby's fault. God does not visit the sins of the fathers on the sons.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,508
6,395
Midwest
✟78,539.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Not every baby that is aborted has Christian relatives. Does that suggest that God causes people to sin? God is merciful. Does God rescue everyone from the power of Satan? Certainly not! Are you a universalist?

If God knows what someone will do in ten years or fifty years, or seventy, does He know who will come to Christ and who won't?

He is perfectly just to send everyone to hell for all have sinned, and "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). That God has mercy on anyone is a mystery to be sure, but it is God's mystery. For God in His sovereignty retains the right to show mercy to whomever He wants (Rom. 9:18). As before, I say again, "salvation is of the Lord." (Jonah 2:9).
John's Gospel: The TULIP Garden of God
 
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,025
34
Shropshire
✟186,359.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Not every baby that is aborted has Christian relatives.

So... is the Calvinist position that God sends an aborted baby that does not have Christian relatives to hell. And an aborted baby that does have Christian relatives may or may not be one of the Elect?
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
IMO crazy thinking. Babies are neither elect or not elect. Elect are those people that get born again by the Holy Spirit (whether it's by predestination or not).
How do you prove elect babies are not born again in the womb? The New Birth is not based on anything in a person. It is based on God giving the person a new heart.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Did I say that? God gives us a choice, to follow him or not. Who am I to force something on someone when not even God does that?
We have no choice. You are born a slave to Satan. Or by grace made a slave of Christ. It's beyond your control.
 
Upvote 0

StillGods

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
1,506
2,640
North Island
✟291,058.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
How do you prove elect babies are not born again in the womb? The New Birth is not based on anything in a person. It is based on God giving the person a new heart.
i realise you dont believe this but repentance plays a role in salvation, a baby in the womb does not have the ability to understand such a thing as sin so can not repent. I believe they are before the age of understanding so if aborted or miscarried they go to be with Jesus.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
i realise you dont believe this but repentance plays a role in salvation, a baby in the womb does not have the ability to understand such a thing as sin so can not repent. I believe they are before the age of understanding so if aborted or miscarried they go to be with Jesus.
How can pure sin not remain pure sin? All attempts at repentance would also be a sin.
 
Upvote 0