Calling all Bible literalists...

[Jeptha]

"wow, who deleted all of my posts???
intresting, i guess it was too over whelming"

JEP: LOL....I think mine was deleted too. You never hear much from the moderators around here but they be reading....they be reading...

 

[Cantuar]

Actually I was refering neither to natural laws nor moral laws, but the Laws of the Eternal God Himself

Are you saying that the laws of nature have nothing to do with God? Which other creator did you have in mind as being responsible for them?

 

[Follower of Christ]

Today at 10:51 PM Cantuar said this in Post #22



Are you saying that the laws of nature have nothing to do with God? Which other creator did you have in mind as being responsible for them?

If you go back to post #4 it may shed some light on the conversation.

Just for the record tho, God created everything including the natural laws that govern everything.
He is also capable of bending/breaking those natural laws put in place by Him. These instances are sometimes refered to as miracles.

 

[Outspoken]

"Human language is local and changeable, and is therefore incapable of being used as the means of unchangeable and universal information."

Flawed conclusion.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 10:23 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #19


I suggest that you start with Deuteronomy and Leviticus.
When you're finished, you tell ME whose laws I am refering to.

Surely you're not talking about those nit-picking Leviticus Laws that nobody follows anymore.

Those laws obviously weren't "eternal," so they can't be the Laws of the Eternal God Himself that were were vaguely alluding to.

All I'm asking for is a straight answer. Then maybe you'll earn some of my respect.

you are very quickly losing the respect I was beginning to have for you with this word play

I suppose I'll have to find the strength to live with that.

*pauses for exactly 0.46 seconds*

Done.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 11:10 PM Outspoken said this in Post #24

"Human language is local and changeable, and is therefore incapable of being used as the means of unchangeable and universal information."

Flawed conclusion.

Perhaps you can explain where the flaw is? I seem to have missed it.

 

[paulewog]

So the Bible was a group effort, which makes its survival less impressive than the works of Homer, Ovid, Sappho, Plato, or Aristotle.

It's a lot harder to keep track of all the different writings then just one big work.

That and the fact that it was written over that long of ap eriod of time by around 40 authors who didn't even know each other... and yet it doesn't contradict itself.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 11:48 PM paulewog said this in Post #27



It's a lot harder to keep track of all the different writings then just one big work.

That and the fact that it was written over that long of ap eriod of time by around 40 authors who didn't even know each other... and yet it doesn't contradict itself.

"Doesn't contadict itself?" Tell me you did not just say that.




 

 

[Follower of Christ]

Today at 11:37 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #25



Surely you're not talking about those nit-picking Leviticus Laws that nobody follows anymore.

Those laws obviously weren't "eternal," so they can't be the Laws of the Eternal God Himself that were were vaguely alluding to.

All I'm asking for is a straight answer. Then maybe you'll earn some of my respect.

Starting with the fact that God says He never changes, one can assume that regardless of whether one lived under the Levitical Law or under Grace, God has a particular type of behavior in mind for us.


''Master, which is the great commandment in the Law? Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. ''
(Matthew 22:36-40 MKJV)

''For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. ''
(Hosea 6:6 MKJV)


God wants us to desire to know Him.
NOT the God WE want, but to search for HIM. The real God.


The Levitical Law was NOT for the purpose of nitpicking, even though it would seem that way.
There was actually a great purpose in it.
But to understand, this is where one has to ask that one great question again, WHY.




This passage probably had the most profound effect on me than any other.

''And you shall seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. ''
(Jeremiah 29:13 MKJV)


You have amazed me in your grasp of Gods word, but I know that unless the Spirit is also present and teaching, the words alone dont help much.
And in this, there is not much I can do to help.

 

[Osthuvud]

Hi Nathan:

You said:

 

"Doesn't contadict itself?" Tell me you did not just say that.

 

LOL.

Maybe you can help me.  I'm trying to decide who could make more money here; a con artist or a surgeon performing stickectomies.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 12:13 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #29



Starting with the fact that God says He never changes, one can assume that regardless of whether one lived under the Levitical Law or under Grace, God has a particular type of behavior in mind for us.

God never changes.

The laws of nature that govern the universe never change.

Human language changes every minute of every day.

Now, which is the better medium to communicate somethign "Unchanging"?

''Master, which is the great commandment in the Law? Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. ''
(Matthew 22:36-40 MKJV)

''For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. ''
(Hosea 6:6 MKJV)

This is all well and nice, but why did you send me to chase my tail through Leviticus and Deutoronomy?

God wants us to desire to know Him.
NOT the God WE want, but to search for HIM. The real God.

And Paine believed that it's no more difficult than watching the sun rise.

The Levitical Law was NOT for the purpose of nitpicking, even though it would seem that way.
There was actually a great purpose in it.
But to understand, this is where one has to ask that one great question again, WHY.

Except that God never answered in the Bible, and if the Bible is all you have to work with, then God's never going to answer. The Bible is complete; God's said all He's going to say  

This passage probably had the most profound effect on me than any other.

''And you shall seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. ''
(Jeremiah 29:13 MKJV)

But if all you're doing is burying your nose in a book, even the Bible, does that sound like "searching with all your heart" to you? Not to me.

You have amazed me in your grasp of Gods word, but I know that unless the Spirit is also present and teaching, the words alone dont help much.
And in this, there is not much I can do to help.

Perhaps the Spirit is helping me. Perhaps Paine was right. Perhaps the answer is outside the Bible.

Who knows? Perhaps the Spirit sent me to help you...

 

[Follower of Christ]

''Now, which is the better medium to communicate somethign "Unchanging"?

FOC:
This is VERY weak.


''This is all well and nice, but why did you send me to chase my tail through Leviticus and Deutoronomy?''


FOC:
Did you actually read some? If so, I am impressed.
Because the OT shows a lot of Gods personality that one cannot get a grasp of just reading the NT.



''And Paine believed that it's no more difficult than watching the sun rise.''

FOC:
Paine was wrong.




''Except that God never answered in the Bible, and if the Bible is all you have to work with, then God's never going to answer. The Bible is complete; God's said all He's going to''



FOC:
''but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you. ''
(John 14:26 LITV)





''But if all you're doing is burying your nose in a book, even the Bible, does that sound like "searching with all your heart" to you? Not to me.''


FOC:
Anyone who tells me that they know who God is and has not spent much time in prayer is not being honest with themselves.
I have spent as much as three straight days praying to God for answers.
He has almost always answered me through His written word. (Almost)






''Perhaps the Spirit is helping me. Perhaps Paine was right. Perhaps the answer is outside the Bible.

Who knows? Perhaps the Spirit sent me to help you...''


FOC:
''But even if we, or an angel out of Heaven, should preach a gospel to you beside the gospel we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel beside what you received, let him be accursed. ''
(Galatians 1:8-9 LITV)

As long as you deny the Gospel that was proclaimed by the disciples and apostles, I am quite positive that you are not sent of the HOLY Spirit to teach me anything.
That is one great thing about the scripture, it defines those who are of God and those who arent.

 

[Osthuvud]

Hi Nathan:

You said:

 

Human language changes every minute of every day.

 

I couldn't agree with you more.  It changes dynamically, at least in this day.  There is something that you probably aren't considering, though.

The scriptures were entrusted to the Jewish scribes.  It was their job to not only know and study them, but they were the only ones qualified to copy the scriptures.  After all, there were no printing presses and the writing implements of the day were primitive at best.

The rules they had to follow were incredibly strict.  If the slightest error was made, the manuscript had to be destroyed.  This did not mean crumpling it up and throwing it in the trash.  It had to be burned, and there had to be witnesses.  All this because they wanted to maintain the accuracy.

Today there are many different translations of the Bible.  If the translation is any good at all, it was made from ancient manuscripts and was done for the honest purpose of making a better translation (rather than just trying to make more money.  After all, it is the best seller of all time.  There is a nice steady income if you can come up with a popular translation.)

I use the KJV because the original translation was done under great durress by a man who later burned at the stake for his efforts.  I think it is more likely that his translation was done to bring the scriptures to the common man than for profit.

Now for all of you who are tightly-wrapped, I realize that the KJV I read today is not the original.  But if you take the original with the funky terms that were used back then and change them for a more modern expression, then it is a pretty literal equivalent.

 

 

The laws of nature that govern the universe never change.

C'mon Nate, you can do better than this!  When you look out the window, you aren't looking at the laws of nature.  You are looking at plants and animals that are continuously evolving! 

You mentioned the sun rising.  How do you think the sun looked millions of years ago?  The sun is being consumed as it fusions along.  The rate of consumption is about 1/2% every 100 years.  How much larger would it have been a million years ago?  Ten million years ago?  A billion years ago?  Remember, the rate of growth is exponential.

I think if you do the calculation you'll find that the dinosaurs were actually living in the sun instead of on the surface of the earth.

 

[MartinM]

Problem is, the calculation is based upon a false premise.

 

[Osthuvud]

Today at 12:55 PM MartinM said this in Post #34

Problem is, the calculation is based upon a false premise.

 

And what might that be?

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 07:37 AM Nathan Poe said this in Post #31  The Bible is complete; God's said all He's going to say  

 

The first 5 books in the Bible give God's whole plan of salvation and redemption for mankind and all of creation. Nothing has been added to what God gave to Moses. But the next 61 Books sure help us to understand a lot better. 
 

But if all you're doing is burying your nose in a book, even the Bible, does that sound like "searching with all your heart" to you? Not to me.

Words are just words, but we seek to understand the thought, meaning or the idea behind the words. I quit reading my Bible almost 10 years ago. I began to study it, pray over the word of God and meditate upon it in my heart.

The grace of God works in us to transform us into the people that God wants us to be. There is a difference between people who think they know about God, and those who really know Him. Some people all they know about God is what others have told them about God. But what about Moses? He knew God, so also, we can know God, just like Moses did.

We do not need any man to teach us. We have the Holy Spirit of God to be our teacher. To give us the help we need and to guide us in the way that we are to go. If you follow man, you may end up in a ditch somewhere. If you follow God, He will show you the way to go, and He will watch over us to protect us along the way.  

quote]Perhaps the Spirit is helping me. Perhaps Paine was right. Perhaps the answer is outside the Bible. [/QUOTE]

There is no answer outside of the Bible. Everything outside of the Bible is dust and ashes. Nothing outside of the Bible will survive when God cleanses this planet with fire. Can you find anything from before the flood? If the flood cleansed the earth, how much more will the fire cleanse the earth.

Just as the earth was cleansed with water and will be purified with fire. So also we need to be cleansed with water and purified with fire. Even some of us are twice purified with fire.

Look at sodom & gomorrah how much of those two cities can you find. Yet there are other cities that are just as old, that are still around today. That have never stoped being populated.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 12:12 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #32

''Now, which is the better medium to communicate somethign "Unchanging"?

FOC:
This is VERY weak.

Then by all means, refute it.

''This is all well and nice, but why did you send me to chase my tail through Leviticus and Deutoronomy?''


FOC:
Did you actually read some? If so, I am impressed.
Because the OT shows a lot of Gods personality that one cannot get a grasp of just reading the NT.

What I saw was the personality of a sadist and a control freak. Why would I choose to worship such a creature?

''And Paine believed that it's no more difficult than watching the sun rise.''

FOC:
Paine was wrong.

Because? (No fair quoting scripture on this one...)

''Except that God never answered in the Bible, and if the Bible is all you have to work with, then God's never going to answer. The Bible is complete; God's said all He's going to''



FOC:
''but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you. ''
(John 14:26 LITV)

Well, if that's what your Bible tells you... 

''But if all you're doing is burying your nose in a book, even the Bible, does that sound like "searching with all your heart" to you? Not to me.''


FOC:
Anyone who tells me that they know who God is and has not spent much time in prayer is not being honest with themselves.
I have spent as much as three straight days praying to God for answers.
He has almost always answered me through His written word. (Almost)

Almost? You mean there was a time when your Bible failed you, and you had to fall back on reason?

There may be hope for you yet.

''Perhaps the Spirit is helping me. Perhaps Paine was right. Perhaps the answer is outside the Bible.

Who knows? Perhaps the Spirit sent me to help you...''


FOC:
''But even if we, or an angel out of Heaven, should preach a gospel to you beside the gospel we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel beside what you received, let him be accursed. ''
(Galatians 1:8-9 LITV)

This passage always makes me laugh. Have you ever stopped to think about what this says?

"If anyone, and I mean anyone, even one of God's own angels, ever tells you anything except what's in this Bible, then we're right and they're wrong."

And where does it say this? IN THE BIBLE!  

So this boils down to yet another "The Bible is true because it says it's true" argument. Why do you believe it?

As long as you deny the Gospel that was proclaimed by the disciples and apostles, I am quite positive that you are not sent of the HOLY Spirit to teach me anything.
That is one great thing about the scripture, it defines those who are of God and those who arent.

Yep, "Biblists like us are the good guys; everyone who says different is evil."

If I was writing propaganda, I'd say the exact same thing.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:26 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #37

What I saw was the personality of a sadist and a control freak. Why would I choose to worship such a creature? 

That is a little scary, maybe you were looking in a mirror.

I see a God of love, mercy, grace and forgiveness. You see a God that is a "sadist and a control freak"? I would think you would know that satan is the sadist and the control freak.

 

[gentu]

The faulty premise upon which the argument that the sun is shrinking is based upon, Osthuvud, is that recent fluctuations can be extrapolated to long-term change. A corollary to this premise would be basing the evaporation of the oceans on the change in the tide. The tide went out 10 feet in the last 8 hours, so the oceans are shrinking at a rate of 1.25 feet per hour. Last week, the whole world must have been swimming.

In reality, the system that creates the tides goes through periodic cycles of high and low tides. The same is true of the system that fuels the sun. The sun is a dynamic system driven by fusion and gravitational collapse. Gravity tends to contract the sun, which in turn lends more energy to fusion, pushing it outwards again. It is a system more or less in equilibrium that undergoes periodic fluctuations in size.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 12:49 PM Osthuvud said this in Post #33 
I couldn't agree with you more.  It changes dynamically, at least in this day.  There is something that you probably aren't considering, though.

The scriptures were entrusted to the Jewish scribes.  It was their job to not only know and study them, but they were the only ones qualified to copy the scriptures.  After all, there were no printing presses and the writing implements of the day were primitive at best.

The rules they had to follow were incredibly strict.  If the slightest error was made, the manuscript had to be destroyed.  This did not mean crumpling it up and throwing it in the trash.  It had to be burned, and there had to be witnesses.  All this because they wanted to maintain the accuracy.

And there's something you might not be considering. The Jewish scribes were the first, but by no means the only copyists. And not all of their work was accepted into what we not call the Bible. The books of the Bible were decided by vote. A band of fallable humans calling themselves "The Church" took a vote and decided what was the Word of God and what was not.

Sometimes all you have to do to lie is to omit inconvenient truths.

Today there are many different translations of the Bible.  If the translation is any good at all, it was made from ancient manuscripts and was done for the honest purpose of making a better translation (rather than just trying to make more money.  After all, it is the best seller of all time.  There is a nice steady income if you can come up with a popular translation.)

such as a translation that the people either want to hear, or are afraid  not to hear under penalty of damnation? Bible making is a very profitable business. Can we be certain that every one of those translators were honest? Shall we risk our souls on their honesty?

I use the KJV because the original translation was done under great durress by a man who later burned at the stake for his efforts.  I think it is more likely that his translation was done to bring the scriptures to the common man than for profit.

Which is precisely the reason he was burned.

I assume you're referring to William Tynedale (sp?) on this one. Do you know why he was burned? The Church was worried that if the Bible was translated into English, the common man would read it and come up with their own interpretations of what it meant; interpretations different from the "official" church doctrine.

The result: Christians, in the name of Christianity, executed one of their own in order to prevent the majority of Christians from hearing the words of Christ.

And these are the folks who had the Bible under lock and key for centuries beforehand. Somehow, I don't find them all that trustworthy.

Now for all of you who are tightly-wrapped, I realize that the KJV I read today is not the original.  But if you take the original with the funky terms that were used back then and change them for a more modern expression, then it is a pretty literal equivalent.

"pretty literal" is the same as being "sort of a virgin." It is or it isn't.

Either you have the Word of God, or you have the Word of God, give or take a few corrections. How many changes can you make to the Bible before it stops being the Bible? Better yet, how many changes does the Bible allow? (Hint: read near the end.) 

  

 

C'mon Nate, you can do better than this!  When you look out the window, you aren't looking at the laws of nature.  You are looking at plants and animals that are continuously evolving! 

Because evolution is one of the laws of nature Charles Darwin merely gave it a name: Natural Selection. Things adapt, or things die. That's the way the universe works.

You mentioned the sun rising.  How do you think the sun looked millions of years ago?  The sun is being consumed as it fusions along.  The rate of consumption is about 1/2% every 100 years.  How much larger would it have been a million years ago?  Ten million years ago?  A billion years ago?  Remember, the rate of growth is exponential.

Things are born, they grow strong, then they weaken, then they die. Another law of the universe. 

I think if you do the calculation you'll find that the dinosaurs were actually living in the sun instead of on the surface of the earth.

Assuming that the shrinkage of the sun is a constant, which astronomy and physics (more laws of the universe) prove it's not.

but don't take my word for it...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-solar.html#_Toc430357875