Bulgarian Orthodox Church withdraws from Pan-Orthodox Council in Crete

[tapi]

Bartholomew in his homily to the primates of the autocephalous Church spoke about devious heretics and how this council should find ways to deal with them. The texts swing that pendulum to say the exact opposite.
Living in a diverse region, I don't dismiss any group as not having any good. Which is one additional reason why I reject ecumenism, why should I believe the heterodox are something more special than Hindus, Buddhists and Shintoists who also happen to come from more traditional cultures?

Do not most of the heterodox consider Christ as the Son of God, True God from True God, born in the flesh as an equally true human? Do they not consider him as the savior of humanity and all of creation, and do not they genuinely at least try to seek union with him via prayer and/or liturgical life?

Professing even any one of these examples of the most basic foundations and beliefs of the Christian faith makes any heterodox body confessing these way more "special" than say, Shintoists.

 

[buzuxi02]

The individuals perhaps, but not their societies. If one says the Orthodox church can extend her boundaries, it may cover the pious individual but it does not extend to cover the sect under an umbrella as if the church is a conglomerate. That's what ecumenism does. Why should some sect that professes Christ but also allows gay marriages, denies theosis, shuns traditional morality be more special than a people who come from more traditional cultures untouched by secular humanism and thus are more kindred spirits with us?

 

[ArmyMatt]

now this is an interesting development.....

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/94479.htm

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

now this is an interesting development.....

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/94479.htm

Fascinating news, I do think they should implement the 8th ecumenical Council that condemns the filioque.

 

[AlaskaFan]

As sad as these situations are I wouldnt be to sure about the underlined. There is on Long Island where im from 3 greek orthodox parishes in fairly close proximity with each other. The oldest of the parishes was a mix of Greek mainlanders from Laconia, islanders from Chios, and i beleive there was a small mix of Cypriots in that congregation. They couldn't agree on much so the Chians branched off and started their own parish, a third parish was started absorbing many of the Cypriots. I don't think there was as much venom as what your describing in your post. But the villages where many of the mainlander greeks came from does have a reputation of being hard nosed, Chians can be unbending themselves so this spawned three parishes with the smallest one now struggling financially. The two parishes are doing well but the one found by the smallest group should have not been built, Bishop should have put his foot down on that one. This small parish has actually constructed a beautiful temple but many of the families have since moved away and now have trouble paying the priest's salary.

Hello Buzuxi,

I am on Long Island as well. I attend St Gregory of Nyssa Orthodox Church (ACROD) in Seaford.

 

[ICXC-NIKA]

now this is an interesting development.....

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/94479.htm

Awesome development!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It really makes me feel disheartened when I look at the petty squabbles among the Churches. It also makes me question how united we really are. We don't seem like the United Body of Christ

That has been some of the consistent themes others have been bringing up a lot of late.

As another noted on the issue for what the world is seeing in the midst of it all:

It is hard to analyse a situation that evolves day by day. You are tempted to hope for a miracle that would allow the Hierarchs to overcome these conflicts and to be able to serve together on the feast of the Holy Trinity. However, we can make several sad conclusions even now.

The first of these conclusions is obvious: the attempt to demonstrate the unity of the Ecumenical Orthodoxy to ourselves and to the world has shown, conversely, a deep lack of unity. In reality, the Local Orthodox Churches turn out to be far away from the ideal of the Family of Churches that dwells in love.

It is generally accepted that, globally, the main problem of the Orthodox ecclesiastical structure is the rivalry between the first in honour Patriarchate of Constantinople and the largest in the Orthodox world Patriarchate of Moscow. By this logic, the Great and Holy Council, convened by the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, was supposed to assert his primacy and influence in the Orthodox world, which would run counter to the interests of Moscow. Some voices in the Orthodox blogosphere forecasted that Moscow would try to sabotage the Council, while the decision of the Bulgarian Church to withdraw from the Council was explained as the work of the “hand of Moscow.” In the last few days, however, competent neutral experts explained that the conflicts between Sofia and Constantinople were the result of disputes over some holy relics.

At the same time, the position of the Moscow Patriarchate, expressed by its Synod, was distinctly conciliatory. However, Constantinople did not want to listen. It is safe to say that not only Patriarch Bartholomew, but also Patriarch Kirill have put so much of themselves into the project of the Pan-Orthodox Council that in their own way both of them will strive for its implementation to the last.

The fact that there are almost no state interests involved is a hallmark of this inter-ecclesiastical conflict. Apart from the already resolved question of transferring the meeting place of the Council from Istanbul to Crete as a result of the deterioration of relations between Russia and Turkey, it is hard to find any other global or local state policy factors in the current web of contradictions. It all comes down to questions of Church politics, which the participants of the process cannot blame on the pressures from political forces or from one government or another. In future, of course, state governments may feel more tempted to use for their own purposes national Churches that have revealed their lack of unity.

It is regrettable that in the lead-up to the Council the main discussions are about Church politics, as opposed to theology. Yet it is even more regrettable that the fiasco of the Pan-Orthodox Council will strengthen the isolationist and reactionary tendencies that already exist in the Orthodox Church, and not just in Russia. The numerous opponents of the Council process and inter-Church cooperation, sectarians and scaremongers, acting under the banner of anti-ecumenism and the fear of “the antichrist’s eighth ecumenical council” will think they have won. While the majority of the faithful, who feel very comfortable inside the framework of the faith of their fathers and of the national ecclesiastical societies, will be quite happy that their usual provincial religiosity will not suffer from an uneasy awareness of being part of the Ecumenical Church of Christ. If, however, we manage to overcome this situation, we will be able to speak of the action of the Holy Spirit.​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

St. Mark of Ephesus pray for us!

They are LIVE Streaming the event and it occurred to me that perhaps it'd be make a world of difference for others to watch it/see what's said directly rather than through any kind of second-hand sources...as it is very easy for media to distort the intentions of a decision or a phrase or decision.

• Livestreaming of Holy and Great Council Events - OCL
  

 

[buzuxi02]

Hello Buzuxi,

I am on Long Island as well. I attend St Gregory of Nyssa Orthodox Church (ACROD) in Seaford.

Cool! Never been to that one.

So you may know the three I'm referring to. I'm still scratching my head in awe as to how the parishioners of St Markella in Wantagh can build such a large church.

 

[buzuxi02]

Two of the three ammendment proposed in the one document passed. The third amendment has not been rejected but they will revisit it.
Perhaps some remember when I said the Church of Greece should put the smack down on the EP. Sure enough it was the Church of Greece alone that proposed the clarifications. According to news articles Metropolitan Hierotheos had a spirited debate with EP Metropolitan Zizioulas on the third ammendment. It was said that the Patriarch of Alexandria stepped in and said to skip over it as things got heated.
This is saying alot as the most traditional bishops from Greece declined to attend, wanting nothing to do with this council.
Instead you have the more modernists like Met. Chrysostom of Messinia. Likewise it was the greek and serbian bishops wanting the resolution to recognize the 8th and 9th councils. If this council goes of course the fireworks will begin in Greece days and months after the delegation return.

 

[rusmeister]

You do think in black-and-white terms, don't you?

Tell me, which one is better?

A self-righteous, judgmental and triumphalist orthodox with no charity in their heart, or a well-intending but, by consequence, misguided sectarian?

There's come too much (Glory to God) genuine good from people belonging to Non-Orthodox Christian communities for us to dismiss them simply as "devious heretics".

This is a reasonable question.
But there is a reasonable answer. What appears to be a dichotomy can be resolved by striving to speak the truth in love. In the dichotomy you present, the triumphalist speaks truth without love; the misguided sectarian has love in his intentions, but not truth.

So neither is better. Speak the truth in love. Some truths are going to be unpleasant. Try to express them, when you must, as charitably as possible. (Note to self: Try to follow own advice...)

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

How binding is this "Pan-Orthodox" meeting when most of the Slavic churches have stayed home - including Russia. Can't they just say, "Nope. We don't accept that?"

 

[GregConstantine]

Do not most of the heterodox consider Christ as the Son of God, True God from True God, born in the flesh as an equally true human? Do they not consider him as the savior of humanity and all of creation, and do not they genuinely at least try to seek union with him via prayer and/or liturgical life?

Professing even any one of these examples of the most basic foundations and beliefs of the Christian faith makes any heterodox body confessing these way more "special" than say, Shintoists.

Some do, some don't, many protestants are borderline Nestorian if they're honest about their theology. Many deny free will, when you do that, you say something different about who God is than if you say He created us with free will.

Many believe all you have to do is believe and accept in your heart that Jesus is Lord (what that means exactly depends on who you talk to). They do not take a sacramental approach to the Christian life. Many outright deny that. If you talk to them about attaining union with God, they will oftentimes respond by telling you that they are already in union with God because they did the aforementioned accepting thing, and that we believe in a work based theology.

I would describe them as falling on a spectrum with one end being very close to Orthodoxy and the opposite end being as far away as you can be (Roman Catholicism on the close end, Mormons, JW's, Unitarians on the other end).

The problem I think some of our hierarchs make, especially the ones who don't live in countries where the majority is protestant, is that they assume certain things about Protestants, making similar assumption you made, so they approach them in that way.

If it were up to me, I would approach each protestant group one on one and cater my approach according to what that group believes and how "close" they are to Orthodoxy and go from there.

I'm not against dialogue, but the dialogue has to be done on our part with the intent of guiding them towards becoming Orthodox, not leaving them in their state of heterodoxy.

 

[E.C.]

This is a reasonable question.
But there is a reasonable answer. What appears to be a dichotomy can be resolved by striving to speak the truth in love. In the dichotomy you present, the triumphalist speaks truth without love; the misguided sectarian has love in his intentions, but not truth.

So neither is better. Speak the truth in love. Some truths are going to be unpleasant. Try to express them, when you must, as charitably as possible. (Note to self: Try to follow own advice...)

Quoting for truth and as a hope to keep cool, calm heads in this thread.

The problem I think some of our hierarchs make, especially the ones who don't live in countries where the majority is protestant, is that they assume certain things about Protestants, making similar assumption you made, so they approach them in that way.

If it were up to me, I would approach each protestant group one to one and cater my approach according to what that group believes and how "close" they are to Orthodoxy and go from there.

This is exactly why the rest of the world, especially North America, needs administrative unity. The Baptist Church is pretty much by default the American Church since so much of the American mentality and ethos is driven by a Baptist mindset. There is no autocephelous Orthodox Church that is surrounded by a sea of Protestantism other than the OCA. The only European autocephelous Church that is in a similar environment would be the Czech Lands and Slovakia. Czech Republic is the most atheistic nation in Europe (third highest percentage in the world after China and Japan) and the majority church in Slovakia is the Roman Catholic Church.

Greece has been Orthodox since basically the Apostle Paul, the Christians in the Middle East have been since about Pentecost, and, the last Slavs to become Orthodox I want to say we're the Serbs in roughly the 9th century. I'm sorry, but until the Fall of Communism what knowledge could any of those nations have about Protestantism beyond a select few minority populations? Romania had a sizable Saxon population for centuries and Catherine the Great invited Lutherans to help develop Ukraine, yet beyond those few small non-proselytizing populations why should we tolerate a heirarch who will inevitably erroneously paint Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, Independent Baptists, Billy Graham types, and snake-handling Evangelicals of Appalachian regions with the same brush?

It is similar to having an officer who came from the Academy (pick a military branch) vs. one who came from the enlisted ranks. Or a boss sent in by corporate as punishment vs. a long-term employee who finally got that promotion he's long deserved. We're here in the Americas. We've dealt with problems unique to the Americas. We know how to talk with Lutherans and snake-handling Evangelicals in their own language without being tarred and feathered. We can't do it if a foreign power puts restrictions up for ABC heterodox groups when they don't understand the cause behind AB and C heterodox groups having those beliefs. Or why heterodox group A believes this, while heterodox group B believes that and heterodox group C either believes both A and B or says A and B are going to Hell for believing either one.

 

[GregConstantine]

"I would describe them as falling on a spectrum with one end being very close to Orthodoxy and the opposite end being as far away as you can be (Roman Catholicism on the close end, Mormons, JW's, Unitarians on the other end)."

I would add to my own comment that "closeness" does not mean "sameness". The Roman Catholic doctrines of papal universal jurisdiction, filioque, the immaculate conception, created grace, indulgences, original sin, vicarious atonement, are serious and profound differences.

 

[Anhelyna]

I've found this link to the Council today

https://www.orthodoxcouncil.org/multimedia

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

Is it true they might add the 8th-11th councils, that a very surprising hardline from the E.P., that might of been the condition for Serbia and the Church of Greece to attend, too bad Moscow didn't attend it could of yielded influence in this way too, if it true they are adding the 8th-11th Councils.

 

[buzuxi02]

How binding is this "Pan-Orthodox" meeting when most of the Slavic churches have stayed home - including Russia. Can't they just say, "Nope. We don't accept that?"

If they dont accept it, nor implement anything then its not binding. it may not even be binding to those Churches that do accept it. It still has to be accepted by their synods and the laity. And even then certain bishops can refuse and teach against the documents within their own diocese.

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

I'm just wondering what the point of this council has been when so many stayed home.

 

[ArmyMatt]

How binding is this "Pan-Orthodox" meeting when most of the Slavic churches have stayed home - including Russia. Can't they just say, "Nope. We don't accept that?"

what makes it binding is if it is accepted by the whole Church, even for those who were not there.