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Bulgarian Orthodox Church withdraws from Pan-Orthodox Council in Crete

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Anhelyna, Jun 1, 2016.

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  1. gzt

    gzt The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.07 billion years

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    A propos of what?
     
  2. ICXC-NIKA

    ICXC-NIKA Member

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    Super depressing, makes me question my faith to be honest. Pray for me!
     
  3. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    We've had far worse bishops in the history of the Orthodox Church. Sin should not be the cause of you questioning your faith. Perhaps you should spend more time reading the Saints.
    I think it was Elder Paisios who prayed that years be taken off his life and given to a particular Patriarch so that the latter would have more years for repentance.
     
  4. E.C.

    E.C. Well-Known Member

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    Yeah well you'd think that with a dwindling population and it being the holiest place for Christianity there wouldn't be any fights in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, but every year..........
     
  5. Orthodoxjay1

    Orthodoxjay1 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah from what I understand, correct me if I am wrong, it is usually the Armenians, and Greeks who end up brawling there all the time. It really is a bad witness to the world, on our behalf. You know Orthodoxy is the one true faith, otherwise I wouldn't be getting baptized this Pentecost, still I think our heirarchs & priests could do a better job being better witnesses to the world. Not being able to put together a Council, and fighting at the holiest place in Christianity is just patethic stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
  6. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Handmaid of God † CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    I only have my eye on a slice of Orthodoxy, but it seems to me that within it, relations and overall behavior have been far worse lately than I have ever seen before. I think that most likely has to do with all that is being said about the Council, and all the strain it is causing.

    That's a shame.

    But the fact is, the Church is made up of sinners as well as Saints. Good thing or they would NEVER have let ME in. ;) I'm glad I'm not a catechumen right now. I pray for those who are. This forum is much tamer than what I see on FB, but it occurs to me to wonder whether some of the harsh things said might not be enough to scare some seekers away, and if so, how will God judge those words? That's not something I want to be accountable for, God forbid.
     
  7. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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  8. AureateDawn

    AureateDawn Love & Peace

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    Is there a place where I can follow the events of the Holy Council? I've been waiting for this since I first delved into Orthodoxy, and I'm very interested to see how it progresses. :)
     
  9. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    It's a complex situation in the Holy Sepulchre. Once you stop defending your territory in the church you lose it to the group that has taken it over. You'd be surprised but OO fight amongst themselves omwhen their section is encroached upon. A section of the roof is divided between Copts and Ethiopians. A few years ago a coptic monk decided to move his chair about a foot to catch the shade as the sun was hitting him. The Ethiopians viewed that as violation of their defined space. Huge brawl erupted between the two sides even though they are of the same communion. Even the transit routes through the church are regulated by centuries old agreements. This is why you have the infamous ladder still in the same spot for 160 years made famous in postcards.
    Of course all these monks are not hostile to each other day and night. It is common to take pictured of all of them in group photos for tourist literature and whatever other photo ops. They get along when it doesnt concern their priveleges.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
  10. OrthodoxPhoebe

    OrthodoxPhoebe Member

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    We have come to a crossroads where it is the laities responsibility to speak up. There is truly no hierarchy in Christ. The body is one.
     
  11. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    I agree. Thats why im shouting from the top of my lungs. Granted I'm just a regular plain joe but I use whatever venue I can to get the word out.
    I was ecstatic with the Serbian response on the conditions it will take for them not to walk out of the council. Their response was assertive with backbone. They made clear that those aligned with the EP, if they hear them say those churches boycotting the council are doing it for no good reason or are doing it for political reasons they will walk right out and align themselves with the boycott.
     
  12. OrthodoxPhoebe

    OrthodoxPhoebe Member

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    The real issue that is happening is that there is real power in Christ as we all know. The Orthodox Church has the purest teachings, the original teachings which lead one to theosis, and this is a threat to the power structure, so they are trying to water down the teachings in interfaith, so people cannot find Christ through these teachings. They do this through bringing in Bishops and Priests that will lead the church to this murky water step by step. The most sorrowful situation is those who are riddled with bad spirits are the ones doing this and who need it most. We should pray for them.

    It is now time for the laity to stand up for these Holy teachings and for Christ and to not hope that bishops and priests will do it. The Church has been infiltrated pretty deeply at this point. At least in the parts that count. Though Christ states, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." It is time to witness and be tested with fire in whatever way God shows us to.
     
  13. Mary of Bethany

    Mary of Bethany Only one thing is needful. Supporter

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    Hi, Justin! How are you?

    To answer your question, I would think the GOARCH site would cover it.

    Mary
     
  14. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    welcome back!

    Metropolitan Isaiah of Denver actually says stuff like this proves Orthodoxy. because despite all of the infighting and sin and silliness, we are still one Church, united at the Chalice.
     
  15. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    This is quite true. And I prefer laity that will speak out on the fidelity to church doctrine. Most in the liturgical churches go with the flow and only speak out on secular causes, most of which are not christian issues.
     
  16. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Antiochians actually had communion with each other worked out a long while ago..as it concerns ecclesiastical affiliation, authorized by the SOC and the Antiochian EO church (more shared here in Statement of the Orthodox Church of Antioch on the Relations between the Eastern and Syrian Orthodox Churches: A Synodal and Patriarchal Letter and here).

    That said, as it concerns the rest of the council, it has been rather complicated on a host of levels but interesting to keep up with. And for some good places for review, I thought what was found here showed good thoughts to consider with what's happening currently that will impact Orthodoxy (https://khanya.wordpress.com/2016/…/10/pan-orthodox-council/ ).


    [​IMG]

    As said there, for an excerpt:


    There hasn’t been any burning issue of dogma that has needed to be resolved. I was content to wait and see what the Synod came up with, and then discuss it. And that is where Dr Andrew Louth’s paper gets interesting — as he points out, the discussion documents came out late, and there was no time for discussion, and that is the main reason that some churches are withdrawing. Instead of being a Pan-Orthodox Council, as many had hoped, it seems to be turning into a Constantinopolitan Council to which some other churches have been invited.

    Among the reasons given for not attending the council is this one 11 reasons not to participate in the Pan-Orthodox Council | Katehon think tank. Geopolitics & Tradition:

    The draft document “of the Orthodox Church’s relations with the rest of the Christian world” provoked the greatest debate and criticism in the various Local Churches. It is of great concern that Christians, who have fallen away from the Church, are not called by traditional theological terms as heretics and schismatics anywhere in the project, and only the “Christian churches”, “confessions” (p. 6), “near and far” (p. 4).

    And that seems odd to me, because that is one issue where things differ notably between the times of the Seven Ecumenical Councils and now, and so it really needs to be discussed by representatives of all the Orthodoc Churches. The Seven Ecumenical Councils dealt with heresies, and there were schisms, and so it was appropriate to speak of heretics and schismatics. But today there is a phenomenon that was entirely unknown to the fathers of the Seven Ecumenical Councils — denominationalism.

    While it still makes sense today to call those who contumaciously reject the teaching of the Church “heretics”, and those who contumaciously reject the fellowship (kinonia) of the Church “schismatics” (cf Acts 2:42), it makes no sense, it seems to me, to use those terms to refer to those who have never been members of the Orthodox Church. Those are people who belong to denominations that may have been schismatic in their origin, and are often schisms from schisms from schisms, but those who belong to such denominations today, and have never been members of the Orthodox Church cannot be regarded as “heretics” or “schismatics” in the sense that the fathers of the Seven Ecumenical Councils used those terms. Many such people have never heard of the Orthodox Church, and have no idea of its origins, teachings or even its existence. There are more than 10000 Christian denominations in South Africa alone — nobody knows exactly how many, and new ones are being formed every week. Some of their teachings might be heretical from an Orthodox point of view, and if members of the Orthodox Church propagated any of those teachings they could indeed be called heretics, but the same term loses its meaning when applied to people who are not members of the Church and are not, in many cases, even aware of its existencve.

    And for other places to investigate:

    As one of the issues that caused some of the churches to pull out was over the issue of what to call non-Orthodox Christian bodies, I was glad for what Sr. Vassa said way in advance on the matter - as well as on the issue of the draft document for the Council.






    And of course, for anyone interested, Fr. Dr K. M. George, a priest of the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church in India, had some interesting thoughts on the matter that did give some food for thought.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  17. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    Sr. Vassa's YT response makes no sense. First her very own Synod on their website ROCOR makes clear the problematic statements in the text that they want revised. Secondly the text makes clear that the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church is that same one as every other WCC church that recites the creed. Hence why the text speaks that the Orthodox church recognises other christian churches and confessions outside her. Read the text through a protestants or WCC prism and you will see it defends branch theory. Now who are these Father's that taught this???? Which Father speaks of heterodox as an ecclesial reality? Which canons speak of this? Heterodox sects were named after their founders or the geographic location of their origins, or some other adjective that would describe them, hence Arians, Basilidians, Donatists, Phyrigians, Eunomians, Novatians aka Catharoi etc.

    And no, Pope Stephen did not win out over Cyprian's position on the question of (re)baptism of heretics. Pope Stephen received everyone by communion only including the Montanists. Cyprian would have been open to receive heretics through chrismation if it could be demonstrated that it was an ancient practise. But he was adamant that not all Heretics can be received without baptism regardless of form confession of their sect. The canon of the 2nd council required Montanists to be baptised anew, Stephen when alive was against this claiming Montanists held the same baptism as the Catholic church.( read Cyprian's epistles 73-75). So any mention that Cyprian's POV is not neccesarily the Church teaching is using just smokescreen and mirrors, St Cyprian's epistles were received by Trullo precisely because it condemned Stephen's practise.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  18. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    I'm getting to the point I could care less if there is an ecumenical council or not. Am I alone in this? I attend a Serbian parish, but I can commune at the Greek parish down the street. I can go to San Francisco and visit a Russian or Antiochean or Greek or any other Orthodox parish and take communion. There are no major issues that come to mind that are causing a need for a council that I can see apart from the overlapping jurisdictions in the Americas problem? You have Fresno with a Greek Orthodox and a Serbian Orthodox parish down the street from each other with two different bishops and patriarchs. That shouldn't happen. That needs to be fixed---overlapping jurisdictions. Other than that, I don't see a great "Arian controversy" or anything of epic proportions that should summon a council? Perhaps I'm way off on this and it's the fact I've only been Orthodox since 2012....

    I don't like what I've heard from the Ecumenical Patriarch honestly. He seems a bit pie in the sky and liberal. Even the Russian patriarch met with Pope Francis. That's a bad sign as well! Maybe God wants this council to not happen because bishops and patriarchs might pull something dumb!
     
  19. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    The various churches got along for centuries without a council. Now these 20th-21st century councils are dividing us. This is precisely why you don't hold councils unless if something has already gone totally awry. Universal Councils can cause schism and none have ever been invoked to heal a schism.
     
  20. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    As far as overlapping jurisdictions go, I think the Bishops just need to meet together on a regular basis to discuss how they can deal with the various issues which affect their respective flocks, plus there needs to be regular concelebration. Over time they will begin to see each other as one flock and will be of one mind in looking after them while still being sensitive to the different cultures of each. When that happens the issue of overlapping jurisdictions will dissolve.
     
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