Biblical examples of people who lost their salvation

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VOW

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To Wayne:

but committing a sin doesn't lose our salvation

My response to that is what Paul told the Church in Galatia. He gave a LIST of sins, and said, "If you do these things, you will lose the Kingdom of Heaven."

Now the ANSWER to those who sin, who commit a sin which costs them the Kingdom of God, is in your previous sentence:
we must always ask for repentance
That is the KEY. We are always welcome back into the arms of the LORD, but we MUST show sorrow for our sins. Our sins HURT GOD. We need to exhibit a change of heart, which will PREVENT us from sinning again. Now, it's quite possible to go out and actually do the same, stupid, sinful act again. We can repent, though. We can reconcile ourselves to God. Whereas, a loved one might soon lose patience with us for making the same, stupid offense over and over, God's capacity for forgiveness is unlimited!

But the notion that all sins, INCLUDING FUTURE ones are "automatically taken care of" is really being quite rude and taking advantage of God's mercy.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Ben johnson

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That is the KEY. We are always welcome back into the arms of the LORD, but we MUST show sorrow for our sins. Our sins HURT GOD. We need to exhibit a change of heart, which will PREVENT us from sinning again. Now, it's quite possible to go out and actually do the same, stupid, sinful act again. We can repent, though. We can reconcile ourselves to God. Whereas, a loved one might soon lose patience with us for making the same, stupid offense over and over, God's capacity for forgiveness is unlimited!

But the notion that all sins, INCLUDING FUTURE ones are "automatically taken care of" is really being quite rude and taking advantage of God's mercy.
...what SHE said! ;)

"For I say to you, unless you REPENT, you will PERISH!" Luke13:3
"Do you not know that God's patience and kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But YOU, by your stubborn and unrepentant heart, are storing up WRATH for yourself to the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God!" Rom2:4-7

RE 1Cor5:5, from the text "OSAS":
There are some who believe the 1Cor5:5 verse indicates that God will kill the Christian, that his soul may be saved. But think about that for a moment---verse 1 says he is already immoral, "of such a kind of immorality as not found even among the Gentiles". If he dies before he repents, he dies in his sin. Do you really believe that God will admit such an immoral, unrepentant man into Heaven? Paul says in 1Cor6 and other places, that "immoral men will not inherit the kingdom of God!" Perhaps the 1Cor verse is indicating that Paul wants the person to suffer some kind of physical punishment, that he may be brought to spiritual repentance (and thus his soul saved).
You're right, this is fruitless. I believe and I KNOW that I can NEVER lose my salvation. I KNOW what the bible has revealed to me. If others want to go and and not have that security, then there is nothing you can really do about it. I KNOW and I believe that I am secure in the Lord...and so do you!
Actually, we-who-hold-OSNAS, are "secure in the Lord". Because salvation is "CHRIST IN US", we can KNOW that we are saved (1Jn5:12-13). But I am glad that "the Bible has revealed OSAS to you". Can you help me to understand how OSAS accomodates verses such as:

"Abide in Me, and I in you; If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Jesus, in Jn15:4-6

"Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who goes to far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD." 2Jn1:8-9

"For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what things have been heard (faith comes from hearing), lest we drift away from it. ...how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" Heb2:1-3

"Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the EISODOS-ENTRANCE/GATE of (Heaven) will be abundantly supplied to you." 2Pet1:10-11

"KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ TO ETERNAL LIFE". Jude21

"He who endures to the end will be saved." Matt24:13, Mk13:13.

"By your endurance you will gain your PSUCHE-souls". Luke 21:19

"Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and Alexander… " 1Timothy 1:18-20

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience..." 1Timothy 4:1-6:

"But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." 1Corinthians 9:27

"do not be cause for stumbling that our weaker brethren, for whom Christ died, be ruined". 1Corinthians 8:9-13

"Obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls" (1Pet1:9---notice it is couched as "your faith", not "the faith that God has given you"...)

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18

"Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it." Heb4:1

What group was "beware your adversary the devil, who prowls the world like a roaring lion", to what group of people was that written??? 1Pet5:8
 
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Miss Shelby

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There are plenty of unconditional Scriptures which would seem to support the OSAS view if you conisder that being saved is 100 percent divine responsibility. In other words God has done it all. (Which He has)

But what about those conditional Scriptures which emphasize human responsibility? We just ignore them or twist them to suit our fancy because God did all the saving work Himself? I'm not buying that.

I contended this on another board and I hold to the notion that when you have Scripture side by side which seemingly contradicts itself then you have a mystery. And when man tries to figure out what God Himself can only know the result is doctrines like OSAS. We must pay attention to what the Scripture says and not what we want it to say. And if it doesn't make sense to us--so be it.

Michelle
 
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VOW

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To Miss Shelby:

We must pay attention to what the Scripture says and not what we want it to say. And if it doesn't make sense to us--so be it.

Yes, Ma'am, absolutely! We don't say, "Hey the Bible is full of contradictions, so it must be a LIE."

We also don't pick and choose which part of the contradiction pleases us the most. We are not supposed to FORCE that square peg into the round hole.

Instead, we keep looking through ALL the holes to find a square one. It's there, too!


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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WayneH

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Ben......

I can add a ton of verses that supports OSAS.... will you refute each and every one?? No - you can't - so - lets just say - agree to disagree... I personally know I am guaranteed My salvation... you can believe as you wish - I'm not going to sit and argue over it.. again I say - I know I have My guarentee..... catch ya in heaven ben.... take care.......


Miss Shelby - bless ya Maam... I agree when yo say about the contridictions - but - I do not see any contridictions. so I again we agree on that - isn't that great..... I fully agree to listen to what the scriptures say... you also have a wonderful day...
 
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eldermike

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Mis,

You said <Do you mean the freedom to know and love God unconditionally and to grow in intimacy with Him..out of a heartfelt desire to love Him because what He did for us was out of a selfless perfect love so that He could have us back? Is the freedom you speak of the freedom of knowing who I am... A Blood bought Child of God? I know that freedom. >


No, that is not what meant.

Blessings
 
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Ben johnson

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There are plenty of unconditional Scriptures which would seem to support the OSAS view
And what would they be? I am aware of essentially all of them. And I list them in the text I'm writing, not "debunking" them but rather explaining them in harmony with "OSNAS". Take Eph1:4, for example: "He CHOSE us in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and blameless before Him". How in the world could that mean anything BUT "predestined-election"? The answer lies in Scripture. In Matt22, the parable of the wedding supper, in the end all have been called but only those who accepted (AND clothed themselves with the Master's righteousness) became the chosen. The parable ends with: "For many are called, but few are chosen!"

And in John15 it clearly says, "You did not choose Me but I chose you!" Yet, just a few verses earlier, it says: "Anyone that does NOT abide in Me is cut off ...and cast into the fire." How can both be true?

The answer is easy when you understand salvation.

Salvation is by OUR faith, it is GOD'S grace. Salvation is CHRIST-IN-US. Fellowship. From the foundation of the World God purposed JESUS. So, "chose-us-in-HIM", harmonized perfectly with "whosoever BELIEVES should not perish but have eternal life". Our predestination, is absolutely, Scripturally, founded on our belief!

If we BELIEVE, then (and only then) are we God's chosen. Because the entire work-of-salvation was accomplished by Jesus-on-the-Cross, we did not choose Him but He chose us! All based on our belief, our acceptance of Him and the gift of grace.

And passage after passage admonishes us to "remain in salvation". Eph1:4 says "holy and blameless", the exact words used by the same writer Paul, in Col1:22-23: "Holy and blameless IF INDEED you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not moved away from Jesus!"

And, as the title of this thread declares, example after example of those who FELL FROM SALVATION persist...
 
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Miss Shelby

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The way I see it there are two sides to the coin. There certain Scriptures which emphasize divine responsibility and those that emphasize human responsibility.

The harmonizing I agree with you on that Ben johnson. If Christian assurance is built only on one side of the coin {divine responsibility} then you have false assurance. If it is built on the other side of the coin and place everything on human responsibility you have virtually no assurance. But real and practical assurance comes from harmonizing them together.

I am following you on that, Ben.

Michelle
 
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eldermike

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Missy,



you said <I have a question for those that believe in OSAS..what happen when you all sin...or don't you sin ? Can you just continue to live in sin, but as long as you say, "Oh, I am saved!" you can continue to keep breaking God's commands and still be saved ? Without consequences ? >

We all sin, no matter our doctrine. Here is the difference. My sins are forgiven back at the cross. Why else did Jesus die?. I confess my sins for cleansing (agreement), not salvation. OSAS doesn't mean freedom too sin. We are sinners saved by grace, actually saints that occasionally sin. I do not know a single OSAS believer that wants to sin.

Do you see not sin by following God's commands?

Can you list all the sins? I am not sure I know them all.

If you miss one, what does that do?

Blessings
 
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VOW

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To Eldermike:

My sins are forgiven back at the cross

Ah, but that is EXACTLY what OSNAS believes as well!

Your sins are forgiven, the payment has been made. But should you sin following your acceptance of Salvation, you must still REPENT for what you have done to offend God.

Repentance is not a payment for sins. Repentance is ACKNOWLEDGING you have sinned, that you have offended God, and that you have TURNED AWAY FROM HIM by sinning. AND....you have now acknowleged your sinful actions and have TURNED BACK TO HIM.

Repentance and forgiveness are two different terms, two different actions.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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eldermike

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Mis,

Yes I did.

The first part of the epistles is doctrine. center is instructional. You can't understand the instructions until you have the doctrine down. That is Neil Andersons method.

We twist scripture to fit a doctrine that is not in the first 2 or three scriptures.

Blessings
 
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Ben johnson

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I meant all sins, including tomorrow.
Is repentance involved in this in any way? I mean, what if went to God and prayed: "God, forgive me for the man I killed yesterday. And for the one I'm gonna kill tomorrow."

Would He have forgiveness for me? For either?
 
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Miss Shelby

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Mis,

Yes I did.

The first part of the epistles is doctrine. center is instructional. You can't understand the instructions until you have the doctrine down. That is Neil Andersons method.

We twist scripture to fit a doctrine that is not in the first 2 or three scriptures.


So you, (or Neil) takes each epistle individually and come up with a doctrine out of the first -say three or four chapters-- and then assume the rest is just fluff?

What do you do with the Gospels?

Michelle
 
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VOW

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To Eldermike:

The first part of the epistles is doctrine. center is instructional. You can't understand the instructions until you have the doctrine down. That is Neil Andersons method.

The first part of the epistle of Galatians is addressed to the Church in Galatia. Then Paul gives some background on himself. Chapter Five, which is where my Scriptural quotation is from, is a pleading with the churchmembers on how to live Christian lives.

I fail to see how Mr Anderson's "method" can detract from what Paul is telling the Galatians in my quotation, that they must not do the things that Paul lists, or they will lose the Kingdom of Heaven.

Again, we are discussing repentance vs forgiveness here.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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VOW

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To Eldermike:

If you don't have God, the list is useless.

You can be the best person in the world, but if you have not accepted the gift of Salvation, then it doesn't matter what you do, or what you don't do.

After you have been reborn in Christ, though, your behavior DOES count. The good things you do reflect the presence of God in your life: "faith without works is dead." The little bad things you do are painful to God, and you need to stop listening to His voice with only one ear. The horribly ROTTEN things you do, like Paul's list, mean that you are pointed in the wrong direction on the road to Eternity.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Julie

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GALATIANS FIVE In verse nineteen there begins a list of seventeen fruits of the flesh. Some of these words are not commonly used today and are far above the vocabulary of the normal 20th century human being.

lasciviousness - lewd, lustful

variance - deviation, sower of discord, fickle

emulations - jealousies

strife - troublemaker, conflict fighting, altercation

sedition - rebellion against authority

revellings - riots, orgies

"...they that do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God." (See Col. 3:24; Eph. 5:5; 1 Cor. 6:9) The context of these verses is the loss of rewards or inheritances for Christians at the Judgment Seat of Christ. I Cor. 3:13-16 "shall suffer loss."

Colossians 3
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance : for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Ephesians 5
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Corinthians 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,




1 Corinthians 3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward .
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved ; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?



Paul exposes in this last section of chapter five the arch enemies of the Christian walk, the works of the flesh versus the fruit of the Spirit. This battle is discussed by Paul in the book of Romans chapters 6 and 7. Romans 6: 11-22; 7:1-25 Notice the word fruit in chapters 6 and 7.

Romans 6
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


Romans 7
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Julie :pink:
 
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