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Biblical examples of people who lost their salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Miss Shelby, May 8, 2002.

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  1. suzie

    suzie Senior Member

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    I thought that Romans 11:17-21 is speaking about the Jews and Gentiles. many Jewish people rejected the gospel message. They were depending on their heritage for salvation as the "chosen". The Jews had been rejected thus Gentiles were being offered salvation. But when a Jew comes to Christ, there is great rejoicing such as if a dead person had come to life.
    Because of faithlessness the Jews were the broken branches, and Gentiles were grafted in. Both share in the nourishment based on faith in God, and neither can claim heritage or culture for salvation.

    In James 5:19, there is another thought that this is referring to a professing Christian whose faith is not genuine, in which the death would be the "second death" as in Rev. 21:8; or this is referring to a sinning Chrsitian who needs to be restored and the death would be physical (1Cor 11:30)

    This then becomes a form of spiritual ping pong. You have a verse, I have a verse. You say it means this, I say it means that. Why do I hold the OSAS position? Because I know that when we are saved, we are heirs to the kingdom. We didnt earn this right, and we surely dont deserve it. It was given to us. And when this was accomplished, we were given the Holy Spirit as a downpayment. That is how Christ lives in us. Now we have Christ alive in our hearts, we are new creations, we are no longer bound by sin. Then how can we become bound up in sin again? How do we leave the family of Christ? And if we can, does this mean we have to be "saved" all over again? Doesnt this now put a contingency on our salvation? We didnt earn our salvation but it was given to us because of our sincere belief in Jesus and desire for Him. We are adopted as full heirs, sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise to eternal life. Now down the road, we didnt really mean that, we have changed our minds, we reject Christ (even though He now lives in us) and we void ourselves of Him. Christ leaves us and then we change our mind again, desiring Christ, and He saves us all over again.....or says "no way, you cant have me again." We had our chance and we cannot receive it again....Or it means that we have to keep Christ alive in us or faith will die and we will be again bound to sin. How is this different than working to earn salvation...by working to keep salvation. This just isnt possible for the believer ---I believe

    I know when I became a believer, I couldnt help the change that occurred in me. I couldnt get enough of the Word, I was driven to it. I was always a "good" person, but there were dramatic changes in me,which some only I knew, for my heart changed---I looked at the world very differently and I didnt pretend to be good ---I was becoming good---it was an inner conversion. I desired to love and serve Christ. I still do.  It isnt me who makes this happen, it is the Holy Spirit within me that convicts, comforts and empowers me. Those who are saved know exactly what I am talking about. I understood --it all made sense--. I would have been classified a "christian" prior to my conversion. I thought I was one. But there is just no way I believe that a truly saved person can leave Christ to allow sin to reign again. We make grow apathetic in our walks at times, or tired, or sin, but God never lets go of the hand of His children.

    Anyway, that may sound sappy to some, but it is why I believe the verses I believe 
     
  2. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    That's true. But the couching of "brancheS", plural, removes the passage from the argument of "Israel-as-a-people". If it was a PEOPLE, he would have said "BRANCH"---singular. And why were the branches "broken off"? Because of UNBELIEF. And if the unbelief does not remain, those branches will be grafted in again. The "natural branches" absolutely speaks of ISRAEL---but it is their individual salvation that he's addressing---just as it is individual salvation of GENTILES. "You a wild olive branch", SINGULAR, is speaking to a single PERSON. Yes "YOU" is a "GENERIC YOU", but it is still individual.

    In Romans 9, one of the passages "heralded" by the OSAS crowd, Israel did not arrive at righteousness. WHY? "Because they did not pursue it by faith, but by works." 9:30-32 Here again is perfect conistency with the idea that "man is saved by freely believing, or condemned by not believing".

    "He who believes in Jesus is not judged, but he who does not believe is condemed already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Jn3:18
    "OSAS" belief always holds the "CATCH-22"---that is, "if they're NOT saved NOW, then they never were saved in the FIRST place". In 1Cor11:30 it speaks of some who get sick or die because of "abusing the communion". A similar argument is used with 1Cor5:5, arguing that "God will kill his BODY that his SPIRIT still be saved". REALLY? In either passage, (11 they are eating/drinking unworthily, 5 he is immoral more than the heathen GENTILES), the person would die in their SIN. UNREPENTANT. Is there a provision for an unrepentant person to still go to Heaven?

    I think not.

    1Cor5 is more parallel to 1Tim1:10, where "hymenaeus and Alexander were delivered to satan so that they may be taught not to blaspheme".

    Contextually, James chapter 1 is addressed to saved people. I mean this respectfully---it is only stubborn clinging to "OSAS" that entertains the idea that Paul "jumps topic and speaks to THOSE-WHO-WERE-NEVER-SAVED"

    Because I know that when we are saved, we are heirs to the kingdom. We didnt earn this right, and we surely dont deserve it. It was given to us. And when this was accomplished, we were given the Holy Spirit as a downpayment. That is how Christ lives in us. Now we have Christ alive in our hearts, we are new creations, we are no longer bound by sin.

    And yet, we still CAN sin. If we are NEW CREATIONS, AND the old nature is dead and GONE FOREVER, then all we HAVE is GOD'S new-created-nature---we are SINLESS. (1Jn3:9---this is undeniable, it says "we CANNOT sin") Are we sinless? No. The old nature is NOT gone---it is dead. It is dead, according to Romans 8, by virtue of BELIEF, by our "walking in the SPIRIT rather than walking in the FLESH."

    Then how can we become bound up in sin again?
    By being enticed and carried away by lust, which gives birth to sin, which brings death (Jms1). By becoming hardened by sin, creating an unbelieving heart, which falls away from the living God (Heb3). By paying attention to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, falling away from the faith (1Tim4). By listening to deceivers & anichrists, and not watching ourselves so that we do not lose what we have gained, going too far and not abiding in the teachings of Christ (2Jn1). By becoming again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome, so that our LAST state is worse than BEFORE we were saved (2Pet2:20-22). By wandering from the truth (Jms5).

    How do we leave the family of Christ?
    By disbelieving, by "grieving the Holy Spirit" (Eph4:30 "...the Holy Spirit, by which you were sealed EIS-UNTO the day of atonement"---unto, not until).

    And if we can, does this mean we have to be "saved" all over again?  Pretty much. "If they do not CONTINUE in their disbelief, they will be grafted in again." Rm11 Do you believe that the Prodigal son was spiritually SAVED when he was living in DECADENCE? Some say, "He never stopped being a sin!" But losing-and-regaining salvation was the POINT of the parable. "My son was DEAD, now he is alive AGAIN". The "AGAIN" absolutely exists in the Greek.

    Doesn't this now put a contingency on our salvation?
    ABSOLUTELY!!! This is why I persist in these debates! Our salvation is CONTINGENT ON OUR ABIDING/BELIEVING/ENDURING! "He will present you before God holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and NOT BE MOVED AWAY from the Hope of the Gospel..." (Col1) (the HOPE, is JESUS---precisely as it says in Heb10, "DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE (JESUS!)")

    We didn't earn our salvation but it was given to us because of our sincere belief in Jesus and desire for Him.
    Salvation was a gift---but it was received by OUR faith...

    We are adopted as full heirs, sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise to eternal life.
    We were adopted by RECEIVING CHRIST (Jn1:12). We were SEALED through our belief (Eph1:13).

    We were "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph1:4)---meaning, that "CHrist-on-the-Cross" was purposed before the foundation of the world---we are chosen through His sanctification and through our own FAITH (2Thess2:13)

    Now down the road, we didnt really mean that, we have changed our minds, we reject Christ (even though He now lives in us) and we void ourselves of Him. Christ leaves us and then we change our mind again, desiring Christ, and He saves us all over again.....or says "no way, you cant have me again."
    See 2Tim2:11-13---if we endure we shall reign with Him; but if we DENY Him, He will deny us!

    We had our chance and we cannot receive it again.... Why not? "If they do not persist in unbelief, He will graft them in again..."

    Or it means that we have to keep Christ alive in us or faith will die and we will be again bound to sin.
    Not that "we have to keep Christ alive in us", but rather "we keep ourselves alive IN CHRIST". What else did Jude mean by, "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Christ to eternal life"? What does Heb3:14 mean: "We have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance FIRM UNTIL THE END"? How do you re-interpret that to conform to "OSAS"? What about 1Tim4:16, "Pay close attention to yourself and your teaching, persevere in these things---for as you DO this you will SAVE YOURSELF and those who hear you!"

    How is this different than working to earn salvation...by working to keep salvation. This just isnt possible for the believer ---I believe
    Because, we do not "work to keep salvation". The essence of salvation, is fellowship (1Jn1:3,6). We abide in Him (1Jn4:15-26). The actual work of salvation, is done by JESUS---by HIM in our hearts. "I have been crucified with Christ---it is no longer I who live, but He who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." FAITH---BELIEF---FELLOWSHIP---ABIDING---ENDURING---PERSEVERING; they all say the same thing. "He who endures to the end will be saved." "By your endurance you will save your souls".

    Faith is not a work. Enduring is not a work. Believing is not a work---not that we do. Recieving Christ, abiding in Him, is not our work. We are not saved by works.

    Believing in Christ, is the WORK OF GOD (Jn6:29). Receiving Him is our choice. Abiding in Him is our choice. Persevering is our choice.

    Remaining saved is our choice.
    Yes we sin; but Scripture says that some of us, remain in sin. Deceived. What you, or I believe, is irrelevant---Scripture says it is possible to fall.
    If I thought that the issue could not be settled Scripturally, I would not engage in the discussions. Those who hold to "OSAS"---can they dispute 2Pet2:20-22? They work very hard to contend "these were FALSE, they were NEVER SAVED". Yet the same exact words are used in chapter 2 to describe the "escapees from defilements", as the words used in chapter 1 to describe the "escapees from world's corruption". Words like "apopheugo, epignosis". Is it possible to accept that in chapter 1 they are SAVED, but the exact same words in chapter 2 are NOT SAVED?

    Similarly, for those who hold to the "OSAS" view of "PREDESTINED-ELECTION", Romans 5:17-18 sums it up nicely. "For if by the transgression of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and receive the gift of righteousness will reign through the one, Jesus. So through one transgression resulted condemnation to ALL MEN, even so through one act of righteousness resulted justification of life to ALL MEN." Some contend that the FIRST "pas anthropos", "all men", truly meant "the WORLD", but then stubbornly try to convince us that the SECOND "pas anthropos" meant "only SOME of ALL TYPES". Same verse, said in the same breath---same meaning.
    No, it doesn't sound sappy at all---many people believe as you do. I only wish to challenge each person here (including myself), to support the belief, Scripturally.
     
  3. suzie

    suzie Senior Member

    861
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    Christian
    Ben-

    Hmmm, here in Romans 7:17 I thought "branches" meant Jews--some (not all) of the Jews were broken off or rejected by God. Right- the branches were broken because of unbelief. They rejected the gospel message. They were depending on their heritage for salvation.
    Romans 9:30---lets first look before this verse . In 9:25-26 he is quoting Hosea--telling of God's intention to restore his people. Paul applies Hosea's message to God's intention to bring the Gentiles into the family after the Jews rejected his plan. In 9:27-29 Paul tells that Isaiah prophesied that only a small number or God's original people -the Jews- would be saved. In 9:30-32 it shows that although the Jews had a worthy goal to honor God, they tried to attain it the wrong way. They were holding the law rigidly and missing the message. So this isnt about losing salvation , but never getting salvation.

    I see we dont agree about James. I have already explained my position so I will not return to it.

    Actually 1 Cor 5:5 to "hand this man over to satan" would mean to exclude him from fellowship--without Christian support this man would be alone in his sin and hopefully be driven to repentance. 1 Cor 11, yes physical death--this may have been a supernatural judgement on the church. We still continue to sin after our salvation, we do not live in sin however. We still will be judged by how we live our lives and how obedient we are to God.

    You are very right when you say 1 John 3:9 and even prior to that verse, verse 1 on tells us how we are children of God.....No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. We do not live in sin any longer--do we still sin? yes. Do we remain in sin? No. There is a difference between committing a sin and continuing in sin. It means that we as believers do not cherish a certain sin or choose to commit it. A believer who commits a sin, repents confesses and is forgiven. Someone who continues in sin has no remorse, does not feel a need to repent or confess. Therefore we cannot be bound up in sin again.
    Scripture does not, I believe, say that you can fall once saved. It does say that you can rebel and refuse to believe in Him. This will eventually lead to a hardened heart. God eventually will leave us alone in our sin if we persist in our unbelief.

    So, all in all, Ben, we come to the same point as prior to this writing. The OSAS position is scripturally based. You just do not choose to believe that. Just as I have reviewed all the "can fall away" verses and do not believe they mean what they seem to you.
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "fellowship IS salvation. "

    I'd disagree if you define fellowship as as soon as you sin you're out of the club. sorry, christ doesn't work that way.

    If you disbeleive, you never believed in the first place. Christ explains that to us quite clearly in John chapter 10.

    "The word in Jn10:28, is "harpazo". The same exact word used for "Rapture" in 1Thess4. It means: "SEIZE-OR-REMOVE-FORCIBLY". "

    Yup, sin is forcably removing us from God. It can't be done, thatnks for clearing up the point. You're exactly right. The spiritual man (christians) want to serve God, so we would never turn away, as again evidenced in John 10.


    "it only applies to ISRAEL as a NATION"---but then THIS verse from the SAME PASSAGE is ACCEPTED in SUPPORT of "OSAS"??? "

    Is quite a different context because of the wording. something you aren't looking at apperently. As for breaking off the branches he is talking to them so they will not think they "have it better". You seem to totally ignore the context.


    "Does God call EVERYONE? Yes. (Jn12:32) "Every good and perfect gift is from above" (Jms1:17), and God does NOT repent-of, take-back, His gifts to us. "

    Again, you're rationalizing. God elects FEW. that's specifically what he is refering to in that verse. It is very specific. sorry, you can't loose your salvation and no matter how you want to try to twist that verse, it specifically says so.


    "I, uhmmm, actually, think they did. "

    show me where they specifically said, "you can loose your salvation". I have SPECIFICALLY showed you where it says you cannot. Now, give me the verse, no long winded bending and shapeing, just give me the verse in context.

    your reference to the paraible of a vineyard branch is unresearched. As a man that works with them. they NEVER brake off branches that are not producing anything. The people Christ was speaking to would know this, you do not. Its call context.

    "James says there is a type of "faith" that is DEAD---the kind that produces no works. "

    the passage in James doesn't address salvation explictly, so this is not applicable at all.

    "If JAMES was NOT speaking of "falling-from-salvation" here, then what was he SAYING? "

    this is the crux of your arugment. It can't mean anything else!! yes, it can. that's the problem. You can't find ONE explict statement. We find quite a few. I say with confidience scripture supports OSAS view.

    I agree in the fact that I can do nothing to loose my salvation. It testifies to the Love and grace of God that is never ending.
     
  5. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
    +0
    Ben,

    If breaking off the branches means individuals [because of the plural, you say] then look at these thoughts:

    1] Why do we need to be broken off so that unbelieving Jews can be grafted in? Isn't there enough room for all?

    2] Since these individual Jews Paul was talking about have been broken off, how is it that these same individual Jews [now since long dead] can be grafted back in if I stumble, get broken off, and therefore make a place for them?

    Your theory here simply doesn't make sense given these two questions.
    So even if your theology is corrrect, these verses do not support it.
     
  6. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Of course "OSAS" is Scripturally based. The TRULY ESCAPED in 2Pet don't REALLY lose their salvation. Yes they are worse than before they were saved, but that doesn't mean they are now UNSAVED. (Or if they ARE unsaved, then they never were saved in the FIRST place---our "special knowledge" allows us to take certain words from chapter 1 and understand "they are saved", but the same exact words in chapter 2 are really UNSAVED---you just gotta know the hidden meanings BEHIND the actual words.) That passage in James doesn't REALLY mean "wander-away-from-the-truth, as in PERISH"; he's just speaking HYPERBOLE---he uses "THANATOS-death-and-HELL" in EXAGERATION. More hyperbole in Hebrews, like verse 10:29, or 10:35; oh wait---that book was written to only Jews---we can igNORE it. All of the warnings about "persevere" and "do not deny" and "keep youselves", why, they are empty WARNINGS, with no SUBSTANCE; they don't really MEAN what they say. All of those people Paul refers to in 1Tim4:1, why, they don't REALLY fall away from the truth, well Paul wasn't LYING, just more hyperbole---WE know they were never saved in the FIRST place. And because of our "special knowledge", we can filter all the other troublesome verses, like "ALL MEN condemed through Adam, and only SOME of ALL MEN can be justified through Jesus"---yeah he uses the same words for both, but you gotta UNDERSTAND that the same words mean DIFFERENT. Because of our "special knowledge", which isn't-really-written but can easily be understood by taking certain verses, and "establishing" certain truths---then any verse that even SLIGHTLY contradicts those truths, must be REWRITTEN. Well, not rewritten, but just understood with that "special knowledge". Paul is SO prone to using obliqueness and hyperbole, I bet he was just kidding when he said, "Therefore let us fear, lest any any one of you would FALL SHORT"---oh wait, that's from Hebrews, 4:1---I forgot we can discount that... Paul was of course "spouting hyperbole" when he worried about himSELF falling short ---of COURSE Paul embraced the idea that he could NOT "fall short". And Peter was ALSO "hyperbole-ing" when he said, "be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS;" (2:3:17-18) why, we can't REALLY fall from steadfastness, or if we DO we will CERTAINLY still be SAVED. Against what Paul says in Col1:23 about being presented "holy and blameless before God, IF we continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not be moved away from Jesus". I guess there certainly is a way to NOT be steadfast and still be "IN-JESUS", or to be "moved away from Jesus" but still be saved"---or, no wait, this is mere hyperbole again, it's an example of "WHAT IF but could NEVER HAPPEN".

    Boy they sure flapped their gums alot about things that were impossible, didn't they? All of them did.   I wonder why?  CAN'T be the "fatherly-advice/warning-thing", 'cause if we're ELECT, what's the POINT---you can't FALL so why warn against that-which-canNOT-happen?
    Why does that point matter? Those who believe in "predestination" assert that "it is GOD who eELECTS, the 'BORN-AGAIN' nature is INSTALLED unilaterally, which causes belief"; here we have a statement that "they missed out because they WOULD not believe, they tried WORKS rather than FAITH". Whether or not they were saved is irrelevant---they possessed the CHOICE to either BELIEVE (faith) or NOT (works). OH wait, is this just more hyperbole?

    Maybe we can also ignore Jesus' explanation in Jn8:43-44, that they CAN'T HEAR, they DON'T BELIEVE, 'cause they don't WANNA?  I'm sure that Jesus REALLY meant, "you can't HEAR 'cause you're not CHOSEN..."
    Hmmm. Perhaps you'll be kind enough to refresh my "aged memory"---I haven't seen a single verse that SPECIFICALLY SAYS you cannot lose salvation. And I have given you MANY verses that say you CAN; you simply say, "Oh they didn't MEAN it, it was EXAGERATION". (Some of those verses are cited in THIS POST---and your corresponding rejection of their meaning...)
    Ah, my mistake---it CAN mean something else:
    "Brethren, if any of YOU..." Maybe not ALL of them are really SAVED---some might just be SQUATTERS...

    "...wander from the truth..." Nah, doesn't mean become UNSAVED, maybe the SQUATTERS just WANDERED---like those specific "antichrists" in 2Jn, who "went out from them, if they had been OF them they would have remained"---those silly "antichrist-squatters-pretend-brethren"---yeah, that must be what he meant...

    "And another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death and covered a multitude of sins..." Hmmm, if they were never SAVED, then he's being OBTUSE, they're not actually coming BACK but getting saved FIRST; or, then again, see-they-came-BACK-they-never-really-FELL. Oh he just uses "thanatos" for EFFECT, James doesn't really MEAN it.

    Is THAT how the verse can mean something else? Did I get it right?

    I wonder how we can know which passages are legit, and which ones are hyperbole?  OH YEAH---we hafta "filter" them through our special predestined-election[/b] knowledge...
    WELL silly me---I didn't know I was "rationalizing"---I thought I was just reading Scripture. God elects few? I thought I read, "justification for ALL". And "propitiation for the HOLOS KOSMOS WHOLE WORLD". OH YEAH, that "holos-kosmos" is insinCERE, He IS the "propitiation for ALL, but-not-REALLY, 'cause He appeases the sins of only the ELECT". More hyperbole.   "WORLD", and "WHOLE WORLD" only means EVERYONE, except where it contradicts PREDESTINATION...

    "Let O THELOS whosever WILL drink freely of the water of life". But even THIS is insincere, 'cause we know (with our special knowledge) that only the ELECT will actually DRINK. HEY---He chose us BEFORE the foundation of the world. Doesn't matter that 2Thess2:13 says "His CHOOSING of us is through FAITH"---we certainly know that saving faith is GIVEN/GRANTED/INSTALLED by God. Now which verse says that? OH yeah, Eph2:8. We just ignore that the word "that" is neutral, and "faith" is not---creating a problem in Greek because the genders are s'posed to MATCH. We just lift out THAT and correctly assume Paul meant to say,  FAITH IS A GIFT FROM GOD. We'll ignore Paul's contention in Rom10 that "faith comes from hearing, for with a man's heart HE BELIEVES". Probably more hyperbole.
    Ahhh, but can you show me it in Scripture? Clearly? No hyperbole, no inferred, but directly stated?
    It probably has to do with the CHOSEN PEOPLE, rejecting the invitation---so everyone off of the STREETS were invited.   That IS why the Gentiles were INVITED, wasn't it???
    My time machine has blown its spatial injector---and I haven't been able to make a new one. When I get the quantum balance configured properly, I'll go back and ask Paul several questions.  (It must be balanced to an accuracy of ONE ATOMIC DIAMETER or the hyperspace/hypertime-exit-vector is unpredictable; so far, every test jig, with every blasted INJECTOR has disappeared, never to return...). UNTIL THEN, we read "if they do not continue in their unbelief"---we must assume that Paul was talkin' about LIVING PEOPLE.
    Hmmm, which verse? I'm reading verse 9, which says ANYONE can enter through Jesus and be saved (become His sheep).  To quote from the movie "Time-Cop", "Doesn't look good, Lyle."  (doesn't look good for "election"...)

    Forgive me, I'm not usually this sarcastic. After all of this, I guess patience finally wears thin. I do not understand how "all" can mean "all" in one phrase, and "not-all" in the next (and in the same VERSE!); how "saved knowledge" can mean "saved" in one chapter, and "never-saved" in the next. And THEN it is ME who twists Scripture. I think the sarcasm is warranted. If you will finally DEAL with that which I presented (sarcastically), then perhaps we can come to agreement. OR, maybe we will just disagree.

    If the very words of Scripture do not convince you, what can I say additionally?
     
  7. suzie

    suzie Senior Member

    861
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    Christian
    You are saying plenty Ben from your last post.......more than the words, but in attitude. As I previously said, it becomes biblical ping pong. You seem very adamant about your position, and as you can see, there are those of us who do not agree with your "argument".

    I think maybe you should put this one to rest and we can agree to disagree.
     
  8. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    I think the sarcasm was warranted. Scripture is not "vague" on this issue; I post verse after verse, in context, cross referencing and comparing. The verses are ignored---again today, as in the past. It is not "my argument"---it is Scripture. Surely I am entitled to a bit of frustration with those who WILL not see. Maybe I could learn patience from Jesus, as He dealt with Pharasees and gnostics who would not receive Him. And yet, Jesus Himself was capable of sarcasm---John 10:34-35 was very sarcastic (the poor Pharisees were frowning in consternation, muttering, "HUH???"). And Jesus referred to Psalm 82, which was also sarcastic. ("You think you are gods, but you will die like men"...)
    No, it is one of us refusing to admit that the "apopheugo-escaped by the epignosis-knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST", are SAVED. Or to admit that Paul was actually saying "some will fall from the faith" in 1Tim4. On and on. When I post verses that cannot be refuted or twisted, I always know they cannot, because they are ignored.
    I am equally "adamant" about the fact that "JESUS is GOD". And that, "salvation is IN CHRIST". Yet there are those who disagree. The thing is, it is not me they disagree with.

    That's fine. Today did not go particualarly well for me---so I had frustration in several areas. I am not frustrated by non-Christians who deny Christ, or deny His deity; but when someone professes to be Christian, and professes to follow the Bible, I do get frustrated when I read "if any of YOU wander from the truth, and ...be led back, ...save his soul from death-and-Hell"---and the other person staunchly says "Oh that's not what it MEANS". I can even give the Greek, cite matching passages---and still no recognition.

    I am not a savior. There is only one; I do not understand the dynamics that prevent people from reading the Scripture, but I guess I have to accept that there will always be "factions". Denominations have existed for many centuries. When the Perfect comes, there will be one denomination---I do not expect to be "right" on everything, but on the basics of salvation I do.

    This is my motivation, to "contend for the faith", to "destroy arguments and every lofty thing raised against the knowledge of God", to "preach the Word, to be ready in and out of season to reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction; for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine..." ...and to "hold fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, to both exhort in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict". (Jd1:3, 2Cor10:5, 2Tim4:2-3, Titus1:9)

    This has been done here by the "OSNAS" believers; and not by the "OSAS" proponents---post after post citing specific Scriptures are just ignored.

    I guess we'll just "agree to disagree". The good thing about the discussion, is that far more than just the participants are reading it---those who "lurk", can simply follow along with their own Bibles, and Greek (or simply go to one of the online Greek interlinear resources), and verify that the Scriptures, say what they say. "OSAS" uses a web of verses that must be understood in a certain way---while "OSNAS" simply reads them as they are written.

    In the end, truth will be the winner. We do not "argue" to injure, but to admonish and to build.

    From the depths of my heart and soul, may God bless each and every one of you. And may each of you, and me, grow always and forever closer to our God, through our Savior Jesus Christ.  Let us, none of us (you or me), ever have become too "educated" to not be able to learn.
     
  9. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
    +0
    Dear Ben,

    quote:
    1] Why do we need to be broken off so that unbelieving Jews can be grafted in? Isn't there enough room for all?
    It probably has to do with the CHOSEN PEOPLE, rejecting the invitation---so everyone off of the STREETS were invited. That IS why the Gentiles were INVITED, wasn't it???
    unquote

    Probably? CHOSEN? You said you didn't believe in the doctrine of election. And not that you diddn't understand it, but you were going to refute it. But now you use it as part of your answer.

    So who are you talking about here that was broken off? The Jews of that day, correct? Who does the scripture say will be grafted back in? Those who were broken off [the Jews of that day then according to you!] So you will need that time machine after all.

    I asked you a question, but where is your answer? You simply asked me a question. Would you please just give me a straight answer.

    quote:
    2] Since these individual Jews Paul was talking about have been broken off, how is it that these same individual Jews [now since long dead] can be grafted back in if I stumble, get broken off, and therefore make a place for them?
    My time machine has blown its spatial injector---and I haven't been able to make a new one. When I get the quantum balance configured properly, I'll go back and ask Paul several questions. (It must be balanced to an accuracy of ONE ATOMIC DIAMETER or the hyperspace/hypertime-exit-vector is unpredictable; so far, every test jig, with every blasted INJECTOR has disappeared, never to return...). UNTIL THEN, we read "if they do not continue in their unbelief"---we must assume that Paul was talkin' about LIVING PEOPLE.
    unquote

    Which living people [I assume you mean living NOW] were broken off then so they can NOW be grafted in when you or I fail and get broken off? I assume all those living then are already dead.

    If you mean people living NOW, again I ask why does anyone need broken off to add them in? Is there not enough room at the cross for all to believe and be saved?

    Put it all together this time and answer my questions without the smart-alecness.

    In Jesus alone,
    mike
     
  10. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
    +0
    Ben,

    We post post after post on this thread and countless others showing in context how you are wrong about how we lose salvation since true believers cannot lose it.

    Yet you will not listen and you can be very frustrating to deal with, much like those Pharisees might have been to Jesus, except He is the Lord.

    So it is quite humorous for us to read the following:
    quote:
    You are saying plenty Ben from your last post.......more than the words, but in attitude.
    I think the sarcasm was warranted. Scripture is not "vague" on this issue; I post verse after verse, in context, cross referencing and comparing. The verses are ignored---again today, as in the past. It is not "my argument"---it is Scripture. Surely I am entitled to a bit of frustration with those who WILL not see. Maybe I could learn patience from Jesus, as He dealt with Pharasees and gnostics who would not receive Him. And yet, Jesus Himself was capable of sarcasm---John 10:34-35 was very sarcastic (the poor Pharisees were frowning in consternation, muttering, "HUH???"). And Jesus referred to Psalm 82, which was also sarcastic. ("You think you are gods, but you will die like men"...)


    Since it is offending then when you use sarcasm [and wrong to boot] why don't we all just stick to being patient?

    Thanks,
    mike
     
  11. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
    +0
    Ben,

    We post post after post on this thread and countless others showing in context how you are wrong about how we lose salvation since true believers cannot lose it.

    Yet you will not listen and you can be very frustrating to deal with, much like those Pharisees might have been to Jesus, except He is the Lord.

    So it is quite humorous for us to read the following:
    quote:
    You are saying plenty Ben from your last post.......more than the words, but in attitude.
    I think the sarcasm was warranted. Scripture is not "vague" on this issue; I post verse after verse, in context, cross referencing and comparing. The verses are ignored---again today, as in the past. It is not "my argument"---it is Scripture. Surely I am entitled to a bit of frustration with those who WILL not see. Maybe I could learn patience from Jesus, as He dealt with Pharasees and gnostics who would not receive Him. And yet, Jesus Himself was capable of sarcasm---John 10:34-35 was very sarcastic (the poor Pharisees were frowning in consternation, muttering, "HUH???"). And Jesus referred to Psalm 82, which was also sarcastic. ("You think you are gods, but you will die like men"...)


    Since it is offending then when you use sarcasm [and besides you have wrong ideas to boot] why don't we all just stick to being patient?

    Thanks,
    mike
     
  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Ah, my mistake. I understand now that you believe the Iraelites were "CHOSEN/ELECT". So you believe that every last one of them are bound for Heaven, and will not / can not / have not, been "lost". Even those who reject Jesus, they're still Heaven-bound. You believe. Or do you understand that "chosen-people" were invited, and because they refused the invitation they became unchosen. No, you can't believe that, must be the "former". Because if you believed the "latter", then you would agree with me, and besides you would not have said something so obvious.
    I think you have just eloquently made my point for me. Think about what you just said---"We ...show how you are wrong ...since true believers cannot lose it". What if assertions are proven by assumption, rather than by Scripture? For instance, if I believed "true believers cannot lose salvation", and THAT became my foundation, then I would be inclined to say "the ONTOS-APOPHUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST were never ACTUALLY saved".

    My question to you, is "what IS your foundation"? Is it assumption? Or is it Scripture? If Scripture, then please (no dodging or ignoring), then answer just a few simple questions:

    1. How are the "ONTOS-APOPHUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST" in 2Pet1, REALLY SAVED, but the "ONTOS-APOPHUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST" in chapter 2 are NOT saved? How?

    2. How do people "wander from the truth" in James 5:19-20, but-they-WERE-NEVER-saved (in the FIRST place)? Or if they WERE saved, how were they never UNSAVED if John uses "THANATOS"?

    3. What did Paul mean by "the Spirit expressly says that many will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"? (Don't use 1Jn2:19---those were specific "antichrists among us"; 1Tim4:1 is followed by 4:16. Paul says first "many will be deceived and fall", then in the same chapter Paul says "pay close attention to yourself and your teachings to save yourself and your listeners". If you insist on using 1Jn2:19 then you must also answer 2Jn1:6-9: "You should walk in His commandments; many deceivers are there, so watch yourselves that you do not lose what you have accomplished; for anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ has not God"---Clearly this warning was to those who might "go out from them"---were these "walking-in-truth-children" never-really-saved? Or is John simply warning that if we do not abide in Christ then we lose REWARDS but not HEAVEN? Or is this simply "gum-flapping", hyperbole, it-can't-REALLY-happen?)

    If Paul says "may will fall by deceit" so "pay close attention and persevere to save yourself", if John says "walk in His commandments, beware of deceivers and antichrists, watch yourselves that you do not go too far and not abide in Christ's teachings so as to NOT HAVE GOD", why do you believe Paul and John held "OSAS"? Why is "election" Scriptural rather than presumption? (No dodging this time, actually answer the question---pretend you have never answered it before, do so for the sakes of those-who-are-reading-this-for-the-first-time)

    4. Why does Peter say: "be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS" (2:3:17-18)? Did Peter REALLY believe we COULD NOT fall? If so, then why does Peter say "make certain of your calling and election, watch yourselves as to what qualities you exhibit, that you not be blind short-sighted and forgotten purification from former sins, for in THIS way the EISODOS-GATE-OF-HEAVEN will be provided to you" (1:4-11---you cannot say "they were never saved"---they are ESCAPED, they are "of the SAME FAITH as PETER")? If Peter said "make sure of your election, do not forget your purification from former sins, do not "stumble-PTAIO-BECOME-WRETCHED", how then did Peter believe "predestined-election"?

    5. What did Paul mean when he said, "if we endure we shall reign, if we deny Him He will deny us; if we are faithless He remains faithful"? (2Tim2:11-13) If we deny Him will we still go to Heaven? Is this more "gum-flapping-hyperbole"? Why does Paul follow this with "remind them, solemnly charge them not to wrangle about words which is useless and leads to ruin; be diligent to present yourselves approved ...handling accurately the word of truth, avoid worldly and empty chatter, like Hymenaeus and Philetus who have GONE ASTRAY from the truth and upset the faith of some"? If "the Lord knows who are His" (vs 19), why does this support "election" rather than "voluntary belief" (especially when followed by "let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickednes"---if we are elected, would we not AUTOMATICALLY abstain?)? No you can't say "GOD will CHANGE us so that we WILL abstain"---this is a DIRECTIVE TO ABSTAIN---if it was AUTOMATIC then why WRITE it? More gum-flapping-hyperbole?)

    Objectively, does Paul consider that "not-enduring" or "upset-from-faith" is possible here?

    Simple questions, Mike. Answer them. Pretend you have not answered them before, do not "avoid them", do not "dodge them", just answer them. If you do not, then your credibility is gone.
     
  13. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

    +3
    Non-Denom
    Married
    To all members:

    Since this thread has gone on way past the point of answering the initial statement from all sides, let's just respect each other's opinion and move on. Besides, some will never be convinced one way or the other.

    Before the thread deteriorates any further, the thread is being locked.
     
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