Biblical examples of people who lost their salvation

[VOW]

To Julie:

The context of these verses is the loss of rewards or inheritances for Christians at the Judgment Seat of Christ

And that is your interpretation. However, another interpretation is that Paul said you will lose the Kingdom of God, and he meant just that: you will not go to the Kingdom of God.

I had a detailed discussion with Andrew in the other salvation thread about the "rewards" system. Your "reward" is eternal life. You don't NEED any other "reward." Remember the parable about the workers in the vineyard? Some complained, because the laborers who showed up just before quitting time got paid just the same as the ones who had worked since the very beginning of the day.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Julie]

Your "reward" is eternal life.

Huh?

No, Eternal Life is a Gift.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Julie





Colossians 3
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance : for ye serve the Lord Christ.

 

[Ben johnson]

Wow, Julie! Did you type all that yourself? Your fingers must be TIRED!!!

Chapters 6, 7, and 8 are really all tied together. In 6 we are taught about "death-of-the-old-nature", in 7 Paul laments about the "old dead-but-not-gone-nature sometimes living again, causing a war within our members". In despair he cries "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from this body of death?"

And the answer is in chapter 8.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus---for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God DID; sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin."

It continues to describe the difference between "those sho set their minds on things of the flesh" (which is death), and "those who set their minds on thins of the Spirit" (which is life).

This is not a philosophy of "works" or "good deeds", but rather, "if Christ is IN YOU, though the body is dead because of sin yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness; ...He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who INDWELLS YOU".

So then---living by the SPIRIT rather than by the FLESH, is accomplished by CHRIST IN YOU. By His Spirit in us we "set our minds on the Spirit"---and live.

This is in perfect harmony with 1Cor6:9ff, Gal5, all the passages which have "lists". It's not that "keeping the lists" will save you, but directly reflects what Jesus said, "you will KNOW THEM by their FRUITS".

The "LISTS" show the attributes that unavoidably accompany a saved heart. And those things that unaviodably accomnany a condemned heart.

Religion: "You are what you do".
Christianity: "You do what you are".

One more list, which I have quoted repeatedly: "Now for this reason also, applying all dilience, in your faith supply moral excellence, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, you are useful and fruitful in the true knowlede of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he who LACKS these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having FORGOTTEN his purification from his former sins. (is it possible to have "NEVER-BEEN-SAVED" yet to have BEEN "purified from sins"??? Is it?) Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things you wil never stumble; And in THIS WAY the EISODOS-GATE-ENTRANCE into the eternal kingdom of our Lord will be abundantly supplied to you".

Will that "ENTRANCE-to-HEAVEN" be supplied to us in ANY OTHER WAY?

Will it?

Did Peter believe in OSAS?

 

[Julie]

The "LISTS" show the attributes that unavoidably accompany a saved heart. And those things that unaviodably accomnany a condemned heart.

You're way off man. You need

J
U
L
I
E

 

[Lion Heart]

More verses; On the Gift of GOD.



Jhn 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God , and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Acts 8
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Eph 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God :
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Tim 1
6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God , which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.



R

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
life).

This is not a philosophy of "works" or "good deeds", but rather, "if Christ is IN YOU, though the body is dead because of sin yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness; ...He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who INDWELLS YOU".

Ben

Sometimes I follow you until you make sudden left turns; an lose me.

In the verse above you left out part of the verse, that clears up the subject being emphasized.

Here is the entire passage;

Rom 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


These verses speak of two basic points;

1. Any man that has the Spirit of God, belongs to Christ, and Christ lives in that person by the Spirit, and He will give life to that man's mortal speaking of the coming ressurection. His spirit verifying in that man by the mans living that he is a child of God. And the following verse explains why the child of God lives a righteous life.

Phi 2
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

For those that live in the flesh, by their living prove they are not His, and shall die in the flesh with no hope of being raised unto eternal life.

(In reality they will be raised in the same body to receive the judgement for the things done in the body, however eternal life is connoted with, "in the presence of God.)


2. Whoever does not have the spirit of Christ is none of his, He can't live a life pleasing to God , and lives in the flesh because they are debtors to the flesh.


Now what is the point that you were trying to make, using this verse, in the light of the subject being discussed here.





Richard,

 

[eldermike]

Vow,

You said: <After you have been reborn in Christ, though, your behavior DOES count>

When has anyone said that it didn't? It counts, it's what other see, that is of huge importance but nothing to do with salvation. Galations is not a yoke around your neck, Christ set you free, if you claim it. John Chapter 8 will help you if you will let it. If I am sick I can't help the sick, if I am in bondage of sin I can't help others get free. The cross set me free of this bondage so I can be useful. My actions count but not against salvation, that scorecard was torn down the middle.

Blessings

Blessings

 

[eldermike]

Julie,

You said <Huh?

No, Eternal Life is a Gift. >

<grin> The "Huh" works well here.

Amen!!

Blessings

 

[Miss Shelby]

eldermike,

How do you combine the Gospels into Neil Anderson's methodology of doctrine making?

Michelle

 

[VOW]

To Eldermike:

When has anyone said that it didn't? It counts, it's what other see, that is of huge importance but nothing to do with salvation.....My actions count but not against salvation, that scorecard was torn down the middle.

I'm finding a conflict here in your words.

Here's the deal: You accept salvation through your own Free Will. You cannot have it placed upon you, without your cooperation. Yes, it's a gift, a fantastic gift, but you must ACCEPT it. You have to do that much effort; you must use your Free Will to actually hold out your hands and take the gift.

Free Will doesn't evaporate once you accept the gift. Now, I'll grant you, that living the Christian life gets easier as time goes on. Jesus has all kinds of graces He bestows upon you to live the life He wants for you.

You still have Free Will, though, and as stupid as it sounds, you CAN decide to hand back the gift at any time. It happens. And God isn't going to pick it up and SHOVE IT BACK INTO YOUR HANDS. You must EXTEND your hands towards Jesus again, and re-accept the gift.

This is the difference between forgiveness (the gift itself) and repentance (the act of reaching out for the gift). After you've dropped that gift through sin (as the list in Galatians itemizes) then you have to show your remorse to God for dropping His precious gift.

God doesn't FORCE Himself on anyone. The whole relationship is voluntary on OUR PART.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[eldermike]

Miss,

I don't, the gosples are not bondage makers. It's the epistles that get folks all bound up. It's isn't the fault of the epistles, it's the lack of doctrine when reading them. If you try the method it just might open it up for you. If you don't try it then you will have to justify your own reason for that decision. The opening statements are much more than greetings, they are foundational to the instructions. With the cross in every one, with the blood of Jesus setting us free. Check it out.

Blessings

 

[Miss Shelby]

I don't, the gosples are not bondage makers. It's the epistles that get folks all bound up. It's isn't the fault of the epistles, it's the lack of doctrine when reading them. If you try the method it just might open it up for you. If you don't try it then you will have to justify your own reason for that decision. The opening statements are much more than greetings, they are foundational to the instructions. With the cross in every one, with the blood of Jesus setting us free. Check it out.

I tell you what, eldermike---I know who Neil Anderson is. I read a book of his called the Bondage Breaker. Even took the 12 week class and watched the videos.

And in that book (even though it is a book regarding demon oppression)--he asserted that we do not have to confess our sins--that they are already forgiven.

That gave me cause to question him and his teachings. (Which I did during the class---to no avail).

Anyway--eldermike--what about the part in the gospel of John where it says "abide in me or you will be cut off."

Is that not applicable to believers?

Michelle

 

[Ben johnson]

Now what is the point that you were trying to make, using this verse, in the light of the subject being discussed here.

I don't understand---it seems so simple.

In Romans 6 the concept of "BORN AGAIN" is beautifully detailed. In chapter 7 there is recounted the "war" between the two natures---the old, dead-but-not-gone, and the new spiritual nature. Chapter 8 is the solution. "Walking in the Spirit" vs "walking in the flesh". You said:

1. Any man that has the Spirit of God, belongs to Christ, and Christ lives in that person by the Spirit, and He will give life to that man's mortal speaking of the coming ressurection. His spirit verifying in that man by the mans living that he is a child of God. And the following verse explains why the child of God lives a righteous life.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This seems to be exactly what I was saying. Or, trying to say.

Jesus said, "You will KNOW them by their fruits. No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit." Jesus' comment, "Not everyone will inherit the kingdom of God, but those who DO the will of the Father"---that is balanced by the very verse you quoted, that we are not saved by works, but the works are unavoidable consequence of having-been-saved; BECAUSE salvation is JESUS-IN-YOU, the works we do, are naught but those that HE does THROUGH us!

(How often do you get to use the word, "naught"???)

Thus, as Rom8 declares, we are "putting to death the flesh and walking in the Spirit, by HE WHO LIVES IN OUR HEARTS!

My point in the whole-long-discussion, which in my falibility I may not have been communicating adequately, is salvation is FELLOWSHIP with/in/through Jesus. His very real presence in our lives and heart, just as Gal2:20 declares. Doing the good works THROUGH us.

Salvation is "ABIDING IN HIM".

Nothing more complicated than that...



@ Julie....

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by eldermike
Missy,



you said &lt;I have a question for those that believe in OSAS..what happen when you all sin...or don't you sin ? Can you just continue to live in sin, but as long as you say, &quot;Oh, I am saved!&quot; you can continue to keep breaking God's commands and still be saved ? Without consequences ? &gt;

We all sin, no matter our doctrine. Here is the difference. My sins are forgiven back at the cross. Why else did Jesus die?. I confess my sins for cleansing (agreement), not salvation. OSAS doesn't mean freedom too sin. We are sinners saved by grace, actually saints that occasionally sin. I do not know a single OSAS believer that wants to sin.

Do you see not sin by following God's commands?

Can you list all the sins? I am not sure I know them all.

If you miss one, what does that do?

Blessings

ElderMike,
I do not full believe you understood my post..but I will make it clearer for you.

First of all, I in no way think that just because someone commits a sin (that is claiming salvation) will not be saved in the end. But I do fully believe that those that claim salvation that do sin and continue to live in sin with out repentance will reign in Hell.

I am a sinner and am fully aware of that, I make no excuses for it. But I have the good common sense, and love for the Lord to apologize for my sins and to sincerely ask for forgiveness, and I make a conscious effort not to commit those sins continuously.

I cannot support OSAS, because that is not my interpretation of the Bible. I can understand and appreciate your interpretation, but I do not believe in it. It is something personal for all of us, and that is why God gives us free choice. If it helps you along in your faith to believe in OSAS, well God bless you. And I hope that the Lord continues to bless you. But as for me, I feel I must work to keep my salvation and I have no qualms with that.

One of my favorite pieces of scripture is this: Romans 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another, another esteemth every day alike, Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

I am fully persuaded in my mind, and I can only pray that you are as well Elder Mike.

God Bless,
Missy

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by Ben johnson


This is in perfect harmony with 1Cor6:9ff, Gal5, all the passages which have &quot;lists&quot;. It's not that &quot;keeping the lists&quot; will save you, but directly reflects what Jesus said, &quot;you will KNOW THEM by their FRUITS&quot;.

The &quot;LISTS&quot; show the attributes that unavoidably accompany a saved heart. And those things that unaviodably accomnany a condemned heart.

Ben,


Thanks for your answer, Now by "lists" above what lists are you refering to?

Or do you mean the sayings of Jesus?




Richard

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by Ben johnson

One more list, which I have quoted repeatedly: &quot;Now for this reason also, applying all dilience, in your faith supply moral excellence, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, you are useful and fruitful in the true knowlede of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he who LACKS these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having FORGOTTEN his purification from his former sins. (is it possible to have &quot;NEVER-BEEN-SAVED&quot; yet to have BEEN &quot;purified from sins&quot;??? Is it?) Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things you wil never stumble; And in THIS WAY the EISODOS-GATE-ENTRANCE into the eternal kingdom of our Lord will be abundantly supplied to you&quot;.

Ben,



Here is where you turned left,


are you quoting some reference source; or is this your own words trying to explain something?

Is it possible to never-been-saved; yet to have been purified from sin???

Are you making a statement or asking a question here?





Richard

 

[LouisBooth]

"Free Will doesn't evaporate once you accept the gift. "

You're not geting the point VOW. If you eat mud all your life then one day a guy gives you a ticket for a lifetime supply of steak or any other food you want. I'm willing to bet anything that you'll never eat mud again. Same logic set to accepting and never loosing your salvation.

 

[Ben johnson]

by "lists" above what lists are you refering to?

Lists of "bad fruits", that accompany the "goats": "fornicators, idolaters*, adulterers, perversely effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers". 1Cor6:9-10

"immorality (sexual), impurity, sensuality, idolatry*, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions (heresies), envying, drunkenness, carousing." Gal5:19-21

None of those who PRACTICE deeds from these lists will inherit Heaven.

Good fruits include: "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against these there is no law". Gal5:22-23

Are you making a statement or asking a question here?

Asking a question. Peter clearly says, "Those who LACK these qualities have FORGOTTEN their purification from former sins". I asked, "is it possible to have been purified WITHOUT being saved?" ---In other words, is there any way they were NOT saved, BEFORE they "forgot their former purification"?

The specific use of the wording, "having FORGOTTEN their purification from former sins exposes Peter's belief in "OSNAS". This in response to those who say, THEY WERE NEVER SAVED.

Yes they were. Because they were FORMERLY PURIFIED FROM SINS.

Louis---have you ever had mice? What do you put on the mouse-trap? Do you cover it with mud? Do you find the most vile and disgusting thing for bait? Or do you put something the mouse will find attractive and delicious?

"Sin hath its pleasure for a season" (but bitter is the end). Sin attracts by its deceitfulness. Not in absolute RIGHT or LEFT TURNS, but by very tiny branches from the main road. So subtle is the deception, we are inclined to say, "Well, it's such a TINY branch, and why, look here, it's right along SIDE of the main! Not really a branch at all!" We take step-after-step, never noticing that the branch moves ever-so-slightly more and more away from the main. Until, one day, we suddenly draw up short, in the midst of a THICKET, crying: "HEY! WHERE'D THE ROAD GO?!?!

"Take care that your hearts not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, to falling away from the living God"...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
* Idolatry is anything (or anyone) that holds a higher position in our hearts than God...

 

[WayneH]

I am fully persuaded in my mind

missy - thats what most of us have been saying also....... the problem here goes more to those trying to prove OSAS is wrong.. you see - most of us here are content to Believe as we do - because we are fully persuaded in OSAS........ its no different then the catholics getting all bent out of shape because someone questions their doctrine - they cry that we are bashing them.....

well - its goes the same here - those that do not believe in OSAS ( you excluded ) have been bashing the other side and saying We are wrong - we're crazy for thinking such things and basically saying hey - you lost your salvation if you get jealous......

just for clarity also missy... the Methodist church ( NOT SAYING AME ) taught OSAS and many Pastors still do... so - its no different then most other things - you have to reconcile your heart and mind to God.. you know - I disagree with My pastor on the Rapture.. He has his beliefs and I have Mine.. same goes in here... I am fully persuaded of My Salvation..

I am fully persuaded that I have a seat reserved and NOTHING can seperate Me from the Love of GOD... and one thing that irks Me is someone coming along and saying I am being presumptious by saying I am assured of My salvation... when they should say what you did.. you have to go by your heart.. We go by ours... and the BOTTOM LINE IS - is it a SALVATION ISSUE?? NO.. OSAS - OSNAS - will not save you.. only the blood of Christ...
the rest will only cause conflict...........

 

[eldermike]

Miss,
You said:
<Anyway--eldermike--what about the part in the gospel of John where it says "abide in me or you will be cut off." >

Jesus never said that he would cut any believer off. In fact He said "I will set you free". The freedom He was talking about was from sin. You need to read John chapter 8 carefully. He was talking to Pharisees up until verse 30 something and then He specifically talked to the ones that believed. He used those words. To the believers. Then He goes back to warn the unbelievers. Please don't get those confused. It is important to understand that many believed, many didn't, He had messages for both. Another thing "abiding in His word", do you know what that means? It is not an instruction to follow some list of do's and don'ts. It means abiding in God (logos) but listen carefully. you have to have an invitation, it's simply an explanation of the kinship relationship God forms with His sons and daughters. If you abide in Him, He abides in you. It's like saying if I own a house the house owns me, if I don't own a house then the house can't own me. It's about kinship, not about losing salvation. I am sorry you can't see that. If you see it as a way to make lists of things you can do and things you can't then I am sorry for saying this but that is a pride issue. The Pharisees wanted to understand but only the ones that believed could hear it. That was also pride. He told them they would die in sin, why would He say that?, they followed the law, did they not?. Why would Jesus tell law keepers they would die in sin? Because you can't cleanse sins with the law but most importantly you can't reject the cross. Isaiah knew we needed the cross, Jesus said Abraham knew. Why don't we know?

"Abide in Him" is by invitation only, once the kinship is formed, it's permanent. God seeks a relationship with each of us, we reject Him by not understanding why He had to die on a cross, it's that simple. It is a boast to say I can live sin free, it's rejection of Jesus to say I love you but forgive me for my sin, HE DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He bled all over the place to do it because we can't do.

I always ask Jesus to clean me, create the heart that He wants in me and then I thank Him for forgiving me. I don't beg him to forgive me that would be a rejection of the cross. I confess my sin problems with my close brothers in Christ, we keep each other accountable. But I am forgiven.

I like Neil Anderson, He understands freedom.

Blessings