Biblical examples of people who lost their salvation

[Andrew]

VOW and GeL,

you got the wrong person. That's was kern's quote i was quoting in my reply "likewise your hypothetical examples", not mine.

notice i put the line -------------- after his quote. maybe I shld use quote marks or say "Kern said..."

 

[Andrew]

Supermag: No one answered me. Are you saying that every time I sin, my salvation is in jeopardy? Or not?
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Of course it's not! Unless we have a very low estimation of the blood of Jesus. In the OC, the blood of bulls and goats was good for a year. As long as the sacrifice was accepted, the Jews walked away scot free not worrying abt their acceptance cos another had died in their place.

Today, OSNAS Christians who think that we can lose our salvation when we sin are in a way implying that the blood of Jesus is only good until the next time we sin, which cld be in the next second. ie they are implying that the goat's blood is superior than Jesus' blood!

 

[supermagdalena]

Thanks

 

[VOW]

Originally posted by Andrew
Today, OSNAS Christians who think that we can lose our salvation when we sin are in a way implying that the blood of Jesus is only good until the next time we sin, which cld be in the next second. ie they are implying that the goat's blood is superior than Jesus' blood!

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, not quite.

OSNAS "implies" that Salvation is a process, not an event. Accepting the Savior's sacrifice puts you on the pathway of righteousness, and then you must journey to the end, which is Heaven. You will always have Jesus by your side, encouraging you, helping you, guiding you, but YOU must still be the one to make the journey.

OSNAS means that it's entirely possible for Satan to cause you to trip and fall. However, Jesus will still be there, hand extended, to help you back up again.

The Christian faith is WORK, each day is a struggle. To the OSNAS person, the OSAS philosophy says, "Hey, get saved, and then sit on your fanny! Jesus will take care of the rest!"

OSAS also means you judge the salvation of others. Take the example of the man who is saved, then kills someone. the OSAS person says, "Well, he wasn't REALLY saved to begin with." How SAD! Your saying that the feelings he had, the pureness of heart he experienced were not REAL? Who are you to judge that? If you try to deliver your message of salvation to this person, you could lose that soul forever! "Well, if what I felt wasn't real, why bother?"

The saving grace of Jesus's blood says that we will ALWAYS be assured of the helping hand of Jesus to boost us back up to the path of righteousness if we should ever fall.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[supermagdalena]

The Christian faith is WORK, each day is a struggle. To the OSNAS person, the OSAS philosophy says, "Hey, get saved, and then sit on your fanny! Jesus will take care of the rest!"

That's really too bad since it's a misconception. The people who believe this...oh i know I'm gonna get jumped on for saying this, but what the heck...most of them really aren't Christians to begin with. They are Christians by name only, who think it's their "Inheritance" from their parents, and who have never really accepted Christ. Sin less, not sinless. In order to do what God wants, be Christ0like, we have to try. But we will fail. The Bible says no where that every time you sin you're salvation is in jeopardy. It says if you prictice sin, if sin is your master instead of Jesus, but not if you ever sin at all. Because no one is without sin, and everyone sins.

 

[VOW]

To Maggie:

That's really too bad since it's a misconception. The people who believe this...oh i know I'm gonna get jumped on for saying this, but what the heck...most of them really aren't Christians to begin with.

Try again. I'm a Catholic convert, and this is what my Church teaches. Don't even TRY to say I'm not a Christian, or that my belief is a misconception!

You are free to say you disagree, but don't judge someone's beliefs!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Andrew]

supermag, you said

"That's really too bad since it's a misconception. The people who believe this...oh i know I'm gonna get jumped on for saying this, but what the heck...most of them really aren't Christians to begin with. "

yeah get what ya saying. But a better way to put it is that when pure grace is preached, the reaction is normally "What? Shld we sin that grace may abound? - Romans"

Paul faced the same problems/ciritcisms OSAS Christians here are facing when he preached pure Gospel. Which means we're on the righ track!

 

[VOW]

To Andrew:

Ah, but Paul also said he was not the one to judge anyone's salvation; Paul even said even HE did not know his own salvation. He talked of winning the race, never that he had WON it.

Maggie said we all sin; that's a GIVEN. But we must atone for that. Even though Jesus paid for our salvation, do you believe our subsequent sins don't HURT God? Whatever we do that moves us even ONE STEP away from Him, instead of one step closer, hurts Him.

This is not denying the gift of Salvation. It is just saying we still have Free Will. We have the ability to TURN AWAY. God does not make us into His robots, where we are incapable of sinning ever again. We are going to make mistakes.

Look at Peter! He denied Jesus three times, but Jesus didn't return to him and say, "Forget it PAL, you didn't trust Me." No, Jesus asked him, "Peter do you love Me?" When Peter said yes, Jesus told him, "Tend my sheep."

Thomas doubted Jesus. What a heartbreak! He didn't believe that Jesus would return, like He said He would. When Thomas finally saw Christ, he fell to the floor and sobbed. Did Jesus turn him away? Of course not!

Paul gave a LIST to the Church in Galatia of things that you can do and LOSE the Kingdom of God. Why would he bother telling the people that? If your ticket to heaven is guaranteed, why would Paul even bother saying, "Oh, guys, by the way, you do these things, POW, your ticket is cancelled."

OSNAS does not DENY the salvation of Jesus. But it does recognize that we have Free Will. And stubborn, argumentative, temptable Free Will CAN get you into trouble, big trouble.

All you have to do, though, is to reach out for Jesus's helping hand, to get you back on the path of righteousness.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[LouisBooth]

"I guess I see it as rather like being "pregnant". Either you ARE, or you are NOT. Either you ARE Christian, or NOT. "

Agreed. Now my question to you Ben, why does this matter? I would say it does becaue I don't have to count things. My comparison would be like going on a diet where you have to measure EVERYTHING. I dont' have to do that. I think that is what Christian freedom is all about. I know I'm saved. I don't want to sin, but do, but I know its okay because where sin is grace covers it.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Paul even said even HE did not know his own salvation. He talked of winning the race, never that he had WON it. "

wrong VOW. He said he would give his up to have Isreal saved, saying he knew he had it. Can't bet with something you dont' have, especially when you betting against God. Reference is romans 9:3

"Whatever we do that moves us even ONE STEP away from Him, instead of one step closer, hurts Him. "

We (the OSAS postion) don't say it doesn't hurt God. We just know all our sins are covered, past, present and future. ie..the sucide issue.

"Paul gave a LIST to the Church in Galatia of things that you can do and LOSE the Kingdom of God. "

*sigh* no matter how many times I hear this book being quoted in the name of nonOSAS it always amazes me. This book alone should cause you to reconsider your postion. With statements like, "I do not set aside the grace of God, for it righteouness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing." and "Know a man is not justifed by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justifed by faith in Christ..." We are justifed to the law at that moment of faith, perminently.

 

[Ben johnson]

No one answered me. Are you saying that every time I sin, my salvation is in jeopardy? Or not?

Super, did you "gain salvation" by NOT SINNING? Then why do you think some of us believe you LOSE salvation BY SINNING? We do not. Christians sin. Fact.

...but what happens AFTER that directly determines our eternal destiny. If we REPENT, and ask forgiveness, if we REMAIN IN CHRIST, we remain SAVED. You cannot, really, ever, LOSE salvation. But you most certainly can REJECT salvation. In 2Tim2:12 it says, "If we ENDURE, we shall also REIGN with Him; If we DENY Him, He also will deny us!" This is given as thesis-antithesis, that is to say that we shall be saved if we ENDURE and ABIDE IN HIM. The ANTI-THESIS, the "opposite" of that, is that "if we DENY Him He will also deny us before God, and we will PERISH!" See Matt10:32-33. (2Tim2:13 declares He will be eternally faithful, just as Heb13:5 does---but His faithfulness will persist EVEN IF WE DENY-HIM-AND-PERISH!)

VOW and I agree on many points---but on "salvation being a process" we must diverge. Salvation is not a process, it is a state. That is because of the nature of salvation. And, really, it is an "EVENT". The event where "the heart believes, resulting in righteousness, and the mouth confesses, resulting in salvation"! Rom10:10! Paul could not write it any clearer.

And this event, founded as it is on BELIEF, (which is QUALIFIED belief, "belief with BORN AGAIN, and REPENTANCE and HUMBLENESS and SUBMISSION TO CHRIST and the SPIRIT!), this event is VERY reversable, if the deception of sin hardens that heart EVEN TO UNBELIEF!

When belief ends, salvation ends. "He who ENDURES TO THE END will be SAVED"!

Salvation is JESUS-IN-YOU. Period. Pure and simple.

"He who HAS the SON, HAS the LIFE! I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life!" 1Jn5:12-13 There is no process here, no "journey"; only the "STATE".

BTW, Andrew, if you wanna quote something, type it EXACTLY like this: &#091quote&#093what-you-wanna-quote&#091/quote&#093

Julia, I am pleased we agree on the "two natures". I was anticipating a trick question...

Now my question to you Ben, why does this matter? I would say it does becaue I don't have to count things.

Why does it matter? Simple. "Contending for the faith". Specifically, for the nature of salvation. Salvation is CHRIST IN YOU. FELLOWSHIP WITH/IN/THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but CHRIST who lives in me..."

Salvation is not mere "belief" (James2:19). Salvation is "heart-surrendered-to-JESUS". He who thinks that salvation is not forfeitable, is in eternal danger. He who KNOWS that salvation is forfeitable, is unafraid---but clearly understands that FELLOWSHIP demands time, communion, surrender.

I contend with only the desire that I myself, and my brothers and sisters, grow ever closer to our Lord!!!

 

[LouisBooth]

"Salvation is not mere "belief" (James2:19). Salvation is "heart-surrendered-to-JESUS". "

But ben, that's what true belief is.

"He who thinks that salvation is not forfeitable, is in eternal danger. He who KNOWS that salvation is forfeitable, is unafraid---but clearly understands that FELLOWSHIP demands time, communion, surrender.
"

And I would say these are invalid made distinctions, for those that know it is not forfeitable also does the things you said.

 

[Andrew]

Maggie said we all sin; that's a GIVEN. But we must atone for that.
---------------------------------
Christ died for all my sins - past present and future. He alone is the Atonement.

I can't atone for my sins evenif i wanted to. Unless I'm the Son of God, unless I'm the sinless spotless Lamb.

No, when Jesus cried out "It is finished!!!" It IS finished. I cant add to a perfect sacrifice. I have entered the rest, and I'm staying there. If you want to stand up every now and then to go into the Holy of holies to offer sacrifices everytime you sin, then I cant stop u. But I'm done. I rest in the finished work of the Son.

 

[Ben johnson]

I cant add to a perfect sacrifice. I have entered the rest, and I'm staying there. If you want to stand up every now and then to go into the Holy of holies to offer sacrifices everytime you sin, then I cant stop u. But I'm done. I rest in the finished work of the Son.

And as long as you "rest in the finished work of the Son", you are saved, and we are in perfect agreement.

But what if you disbelieve, "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God", "falling from the faith by paying heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"? Will Jesus' sacrifice still be efficacious towards your salvation? Or will your inherent and consequential contempt of Jesus sacrifice, reserve ONLY "a terrible expectation of judgment and fury of fire", as "continued salvation would be as if Christ need be offered as a sacrifice for sins over-and-over-again"?

The Cross is only effective for those who believe, and who abide in Him, and in repentance...

 

[Lion Heart]

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RICHARD

 

[Julie]

ALL BELIEVERS ARE SAVED BY GRACE WITHOUT ANY MIXTURE OF WORKS.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9)

"Now to him that worketh is the reward NOT RECKONED OF GRACE, but Of debt." (ROM 4:4)

A child born into a family is part of that family because of BIRTH . He cannot become unborn. Relationship is by birth.
Obedience or disobedience(which is SIN) however, can affect how he gets along IN . that family. This is called FELLOWSHIP .

IN A PARENT-CHILD RELATIONSHIP:

THE DISOBEDIENCE OF THE CHILD DOES NOT BREAK THE RELATIONSHIP - JUST THE FELLOWSHIP .


Julie

 

[VOW]

To Julie and others:

Where are you getting the impression that OSNAS is "salvation by works"? Reconciling yourself to God after sinning is not works. It's reconciling. You aren't EARNING the reconciliation, you are showing remorse, and you are re-commiting yourself to Him. That's not works.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[GreenEyedLady]

A child born into a family is part of that family because of BIRTH . He cannot become unborn. Relationship is by birth.
Obedience or disobedience(which is SIN) however, can affect how he gets along IN . that family. This is called FELLOWSHIP .

This is awesome!
once you are "born again" how can you be unborn?
Makes sense to me!
GEL

 

[Miss Shelby]

Today, OSNAS Christians who think that we can lose our salvation when we sin are in a way implying that the blood of Jesus is only good until the next time we sin, which cld be in the next second. ie they are implying that the goat's blood is superior than Jesus' blood!

That is simply not true, Andrew. People who hold to OSNAS don't downplay the role of repentance and daily sacrifice of our own will to God's. The Blood of Christ is very precious to me...I'm just not willing to buy that I do not have a role to play in my salvation.

Michelle

 

[kern]

Originally posted by Andrew

Today, OSNAS Christians who think that we can lose our salvation when we sin are in a way implying that the blood of Jesus is only good until the next time we sin, which cld be in the next second. ie they are implying that the goat's blood is superior than Jesus' blood!

As I understand the Catholic position, the your salvation is only in danger when you commit a mortal sin. For something to qualify as a "mortal sin", among other things, it must be done with complete foreknowledge that what you are about to do is abhorrent in God's eyes, and that by sinning you are turning away from him.

So it's not just say a cuss word and your salvation is on the line. When you commit a mortal sin you are rejecting God, turning away from him.

-Chris