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Bible says science cannot possibly know how many years since creation

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by dad, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

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    If this were about assumptions you might have a point. Since it is about demonstrated events and effects on people through time and history, it is wrong to pretend it is some mind game. The mind game is actually waving it all away in a desperate frenzy of contrived doubt.
     
  2. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    So I can't find out the truth because I haven't already decided to believe Christianity is real. Once I decide that Christianity is real, I'll get the proof I need.

    I've heard it said that it's the easiest thing to convince someone of something that's wrong if they want it to be true, but no amount of evidence will ever satisfy someone of a truth if they are determined to believe it is a lie.

    And it sure sounds to me that you're just saying that for those people who want to believe Christianity is real will accept anything that appears to prove their beliefs.
     
  3. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    You can say that as much as you want, it won't make it a fact.
     
  4. Colter

    Colter Member

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    My only point was that when Jesus talked about the generation he lived in seeing the kingdom come in power, before he left, he was referring to a "spiritual fellowship". He taught the necessity of his leaving because the "spirit of truth" would then be received by the truth seeker. That's it! He wasn't talking about the traditional material expectations of the Jews for a Messianic kingdom.

    Once the stubborn Atheist is born of the spirit THEN they understand what everyone was talking about. That's what happened to me.
     
  5. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

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    The thread is not about making God (or sugar, or gravity, or birds...etc) a 'fact'.
     
  6. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    Citation required.
     
  7. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    It's about what the Bible says. But your argument that the Bible's claims are true depends on whether God is a fact.

    So you've gotten there in an indirect way, but you still got there.

    Unless you just want us to accept it as a premise, which I'm more than happy to do. But if we accept it as a premise, then we can't also have it as a conclusion.
     
  8. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

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    Correct. Many scientists take the bible as fact. They all need to fess up right now that science cannot know the beginning! They need to cut the con!

    Chapter and verse? Says...who?
     
  9. Colter

    Colter Member

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    John 16:7-15
    The return of his spirit.


    Jesus spoke plainly about the "Advocate", which is the "spirit of truth" available to believers.


    7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

    12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”


    Jesus' warning about the destruction of Israel and his references of the literal second coming were all garbled together in Matthew 24 by the recollection of the gospel authors. The destruction of Israel and the Second Temple did occur in 70 AD. Jesus' practical warning was for his followers to get the heck out of Jerusalem when they saw this coming. But concerning his literal second coming he also plainly stated. “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father."
     
  10. Colter

    Colter Member

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    Kylie, "dad" is part of a proud fringe hold-out in Christendom. As you know there are plenty of Christians who know that the earth is very old, life evolved over hundred of millions of years and the Bible is as flawed as the men who wrote it!
     
  11. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    And I bet that these scientists are NOT in fields where it makes a difference.

    Yeah, dude, I wasn't actually quoting the Bible there. So asking for chapter and verse doesn't make any actual sense, okay?

    I was saying that we can have the assumption the Bible is accurate as one of our premises, BUT if we do that, we can't have the Bible being accurate as our conclusion as well. Otherwise it's just circular logic, and that doesn't work.
     
  12. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    Yeah, okay.

    I see nothing that connects this Advocate with the beginning of any kind of Kingdom.

    You seem to be just assuming that this Advocate is bringing the Kingdom that was spoken of, and I see nothing in the passage you quoted to justify such a claim.
     
  13. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    I'm well aware of that. But I find it diverting...
     
  14. Colter

    Colter Member

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    The kingdom was spiritual and already in existence when Jesus taught about the advocate.

    “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21)
     
  15. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

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    ?? Are you suggesting that no bible believing scientists are in no fields that make a difference?

    If an opinion has no bible or science support on offer, it is hardly worth looking at.
    Well, those who realize God and His word are real and true have reached that decision for various reasons. It is testable. Repeatable. Observed.
     
  16. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    So Jesus was saying that this Advocate would come when the Kingdom came in power - despite the fact that the kingdom already existed?

    You might wanna clear up the order of events here.
     
  17. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    Show me a scientist who believes in the Bible who works in a field where science and the Bible contradict, and the scientist disregards science and uses the Bible to get accurate results.

    For example, show me a geologist who is a YEC and gets useful results using a YEC framework.

    There are plenty of ideas that have no Biblical or scientific support, such as my love for my husband and daughter and sister-in-law. But that's getting away from the topic.

    You have never been able to show that any claim in the Bible is testable. If I give you a particular claim from the Bible, would you be able to tell me how that claim can be tested and verified objectively?
     
  18. dad

    dad On the winning side Supporter

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    And..who wears pink blouses, and purple shoes and was married four times?
    They all use a YEC framework they just don't know it. The patterns they use are what matters. The time it took those patterns to come to exist is only a matter of belief in geology. Patterns of strata, patterns of isotopes...etc. I have heard of some Christian geologists, however they seem to try and explain things using flood geology, or other models that all involve the same basis as the models of science...a same nature in the past. I no more expect that Christian folks using a same state past basis could get to the truth, than I would expect pagan folks using the same belief to get to it. No one can get to a true model of the past using a same nature in the past as the premise. Not Christians, pagans, Muslims or anyone else. It really doesn't matter what religion the are, if the use the belief in the same state past, they cannot come to a knowledge of the truth about the past.

    That includes Walt Brown, AIG, and etc etc etc.

    Yet those things may be real, so what does that say about the reach and scope of science?
    Of course I have as do all believers. I showed myself! So did others! God set it up that way, that those who seek, find. Those who ask, receive. Those who are hungry are filled. Those who really come to Him will know. Those who believe test Him all the time and observe Him in their lives and the lives of others, and in history...etc. We are walking test tubes.
    If you can tell us how science can objectively test miracles and things out of it's little realm and reach...maybe.
     
  19. Colter

    Colter Member

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    I get the sense that you are deliberately misunderstanding again? I'm not your enemy Kylie, I'm genuinely trying to help you understand this one issue. Jesus never said that he was coming back immediately to establish a material kingdom. Those were "old ideas" lodged in the minds of his followers from Judaism.

    This is the order of events:

    Jesus of Nazareth appears publically at Johns baptism and begins his ministry.

    * Jesus gathers together 12 men, apostles who are to be the ambassadors of his spiritual kingdom which he refers to as The Kingdom of Heaven. This spiritual kingdom is comprised of those who by faith realize the fatherhood of God and by consequence the brotherhood of ALL mankind. We are ALL brothers and sisters under the Loving God and creator of the world. [It was NOT the kind of Messianic kingdom that the Jews had envisioned]. That is one reason that they did not like Jesus' gospel message.

    * The Sermon on the Mount was the Ordination of the 12 and inauguration of his Kingdom.

    * Throughout his 3+ year public ministry Jesus used parables to illustrate the spiritual realities of the Kingdom of heaven as a present tense reality.

    * At the end of his life on earth Jesus explained how all who were in the Kingdom would benefit from the outpouring of "the spirit of truth" once he ascended into heaven.

    * The spirit of the advocate came on the day of Pentecost.


    “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” Acts 2:1-4
     
  20. Kylie

    Kylie Atheist and Proud

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    What does that have to do with anything?

    Yeah, that's just wrong.

    They "may" be real? Is that the best you've got?

    *sigh*

    Once again, people who want to believe will jump onto anything that supports what they want to believe.

    Stop moving the goalposts. You made the claim: "God and His word are real and true have reached that decision for various reasons. It is testable. Repeatable. Observed."

    You claim that God's word is repeatable, testable and observed? Fine. Then put your money where your mouth is. Stop trying to change the subject. You said it can be done, and yet when I offer you the chance to actually do it, you try and shirk out of it.
     
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