Bernie releases 10-year $16 trillion ‘Green New Deal’, promises it will ‘pay for itself’

RocksInMyHead

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All 3 would be good goals if they were based on a real problem, although #2 isn't a bad one, depending on what "revamp" would mean.
As for solving that "problem"--it's a major waste of money.
Ah, so your objections mainly come down to denying that climate change is a cause for concern then?
 
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civilwarbuff

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RocksInMyHead

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(my bolding)
Puerto Rico says to receive $16 billion in federal disaster aid
Puerto Rico says to receive $16 billion in federal disaster aid - Reuters
Doesn't sound to 'largely independent of the US' to me.......
Their governance and administration is done by Puerto Ricans elected by Puerto Ricans. In other words, the government of Puerto Rico is responsible for the failings of PERPA. Since the government of Puerto Rico will not be running any government-owned utilities in the continental US, their failures with PERPA aren't really relevant - the amount of disaster aid received from the US notwithstanding.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Seems like whenever someone brings up evidence of governmental ineptitude as evidence of why the so called 'NGD' is not a good thing for the US we are met with a 'meh, doesn't apply' attitude. So, to all who are so looking forward to BS's idea of a utopian civilization.....be careful what you wish for......
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Seems like whenever someone brings up evidence of governmental ineptitude as evidence of why the so called 'NGD' is not a good thing for the US we are met with a 'meh, doesn't apply' attitude.
It's not that it doesn't apply. I'm conscious of the bad examples, but throwing them out as reasons to not do something when good examples of the same thing exist is silly.

For example, if I say that I want to create a new digital storage media, telling me that I shouldn't because LaserDisc failed isn't really relevant. Yes, it's useful as an example of what not to do, but I can take those lessons, as well as the lessons of successful systems like CD, DVD, Blu-Ray, and MicroSD and use them as a foundation for my new system.
 
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civilwarbuff

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It's not that it doesn't apply. I'm conscious of the bad examples, but throwing them out as reasons to not do something when good examples of the same thing exist is silly.

For example, if I say that I want to create a new digital storage media, telling me that I shouldn't because LaserDisc failed isn't really relevant. Yes, it's useful as an example of what not to do, but I can take those lessons, as well as the lessons of successful systems like CD, DVD, Blu-Ray, and MicroSD and use them as a foundation for my new system.
Sorry, but made for print examples don't carry any weight.....
The territory of Puerto Rico, which must adhere to the US Constitution and federal law is a perfect example of governmental greed, corruption and inefficiency in connection with control of utilities and that is not even mentioning the many independent countries whose utilities suffer the same fate under governmental control. Despite massive amounts of federal aid the grid is still not fully functional and stable.....but instead of getting a serious well thought out response.....meh, doesn't apply....:sigh:
 
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civilwarbuff

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It's not that it doesn't apply. I'm conscious of the bad examples, but throwing them out as reasons to not do something when good examples of the same thing exist is silly.

For example, if I say that I want to create a new digital storage media, telling me that I shouldn't because LaserDisc failed isn't really relevant. Yes, it's useful as an example of what not to do, but I can take those lessons, as well as the lessons of successful systems like CD, DVD, Blu-Ray, and MicroSD and use them as a foundation for my new system.
And don't even get me started on the oil industries in Venezuela and Mexico.....governmental corruption to the extreme.....
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Sorry, but made for print examples don't carry any weight.....
The territory of Puerto Rico, which must adhere to the US Constitution and federal law is a perfect example of governmental greed, corruption and inefficiency in connection with control of utilities and that is not even mentioning the many independent countries whose utilities suffer the same fate under governmental control. Despite massive amounts of federal aid the grid is still not fully functional and stable.....but instead of getting a serious well thought out response.....meh, doesn't apply....:sigh:
And the Tennessee Valley Authority is an example of a case where it DOES work - also in the US. So we can be mindful of the mistakes of PERPA while trying to emulate the TVA.

And rather than trying to emulate Venezuela and Mexico's oil industries, perhaps we look to Norway?

No one is denying that corruption can be an issue. But dismissing the idea out of hand because it sometimes becomes corrupt (but more often doesn't) is extremely small-minded. Rather, we should work to prevent that corruption from happening.
 
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civilwarbuff

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And the Tennessee Valley Authority is an example of a case where it DOES work -
At what cost....sounds as though 15,000 families and their farms and land is OK....so when is it too much?....25,000?....50,000?....100,000?....or maybe when they come into your neighborhood and say it is time to leave?....is the cost too high then?...is the cost OK as long as it is NIMBY?
And rather than trying to emulate Venezuela and Mexico's oil industries, perhaps we look to Norway?
Why?....isn't that what Bernie is talking about in his proposal?....the greed and corruption that he seems to believe is rampant in the energy sector? You don't happen to believe that government officials are somehow immune to that same ongoing thing, do you?....
2. End the Greed of the Fossil Fuel Industry and Hold them Accountable
For decades, fossil fuel corporations knowingly destroyed our planet for short-term profits. The fossil fuel industry has known since as early as the 1970s that their products were contributing to climate change and that climate change is real, dangerous, and preventable. Yet, they kept going. Instead of working to find solutions to the coming crisis, the fossil fuel industry poured billions into funding climate denialism, hiring lobbyists to fight even the slightest government regulation and oversight, and contributing to politicians who would put the interests of fossil fuel executives over the safety and security of the planet. Fossil fuel corporations have fought to escape liability for the pollution and destruction caused by their greed. They have evaded taxes, desecrated tribal lands, exploited workers and poisoned communities. Bernie believes this is criminal activity, and, when he is President, he will hold the fossil fuel industry accountable.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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At what cost....sounds as though 15,000 families and their farms and land is OK....so when is it too much?....25,000?....50,000?....100,000?....or maybe when they come into your neighborhood and say it is time to leave?....is the cost too high then?...is the cost OK as long as it is NIMBY?
Any major public works project in a developed area is going to run into eminent domain issues. It's not a problem that can be avoided by not making public utilities. What matters is that the people who are displaced are fairly compensated.

Why?....isn't that what Bernie is talking about in his proposal?....the greed and corruption that he seems to believe is rampant in the energy sector? You don't happen to believe that government officials are somehow immune to that same ongoing thing, do you?....
Not sure where you got that impression from what I said. Government institutions can be corrupt. Private corporations can be corrupt. If we avoided doing things because they might become corrupt, we'd never do anything. So we acknowledge that it's a possibility, try to design safeguards in the system to prevent it, and keep an eye on things with watchdog and regulatory organizations.
 
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civilwarbuff

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I said:
Why?....isn't that what Bernie is talking about in his proposal?....the greed and corruption that he seems to believe is rampant in the energy sector? You don't happen to believe that government officials are somehow immune to that same ongoing thing, do you?....

Not sure where you got that impression from what I said. Government institutions can be corrupt. Private corporations can be corrupt. If we avoided doing things because they might become corrupt, we'd never do anything. So we acknowledge that it's a possibility, try to design safeguards in the system to prevent it, and keep an eye on things with watchdog and regulatory organizations.
Well, from everything you have posted here I have to believe you are on board with BS's 'NGD' policy so it seems to follow you would agree with him about the greed and corruption of the energy sector since otherwise there would be no legitimate reason to take it over. So I want to know why you think government officials are/would be any less greedy or corrupt? If they aren't then what is the justification for taking over an entire industrial sector of the US? Personally, I believe it is so he can bleed it dry for tax money.....gotta pay for the grandiose dream of his somehow....but what say you?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Well, from everything you have posted here I have to believe you are on board with BS's 'NGD' policy so it seems to follow you would agree with him about the greed and corruption of the energy sector since otherwise there would be no legitimate reason to take it over. So I want to know why you think government officials are/would be any less greedy or corrupt? If they aren't then what is the justification for taking over an entire industrial sector of the US? Personally, I believe it is so he can bleed it dry for tax money.....gotta pay for the grandiose dream of his somehow....but what say you?
Except that he doesn't want to take over the fossil fuel production industry (in fact, he wants to eliminate it almost entirely, at least from an energy perspective - not sure how possible that is right now). What he's proposing is government control of electricity generation so that things can be standardized, upgraded, and protected properly - basically the equivalent of the federal highway system, but for electricity.
 
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parousia70

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Yes it is IMHO....and the health care system is the best example of that 'evil' (your word). The average Joe has to exist under it while the wealthy can get around it.

How is that different from the current Health care system reality?... (Besides removing corporate Robber Barons from profiting off it?)
 
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civilwarbuff

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Except that he doesn't want to take over the fossil fuel production industry (in fact, he wants to eliminate it almost entirely, at least from an energy perspective - not sure how possible that is right now).
Now I have to admit that is very humorous.....you agree with him and what he wants to do but you don't know how it is possible....think maybe he is just proposing a money grab?....cuz most everything he proposes in relation to energy is more taxes or threats to extort more money from them which really translates into more money from us since we are the ones who buy the products. And of course if petroleum becomes so expensive that only the wealthy can afford it what do you think happens to other forms of energy?.....that's right.....their prices go right up along with petroleum. So, hold onto your wallet cuz this keeps sounding more and more like nothing less than a gigantic money grab......
 
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parousia70

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Government institutions can be corrupt. Private corporations can be corrupt.

The difference is, Government institutions are accountable to we the people and are not required by law to turn a profit, Private Corporations are accountable only to their shareholders and are required by law to turn a profit.
 
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civilwarbuff

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The difference is, Government institutions are accountable to we the people and are not required by law to turn a profit, Private Corporations are accountable only to their shareholders and are required by law to turn a profit.

Put in the ticker number and see what comes up......
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Now I have to admit that is very humorous.....you agree with him and what he wants to do but you don't know how it is possible
Agreeing with a policy in general does not require that I agree with every detail of how it should be carried out or know now how something might occur 10-30 years down the road.
 
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Sparagmos

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No, his proposal is not really about the environment. It's all-encompassing, just as AOC's Green New Deal was. It may be named for environmental justice but includes economic justice and social justice as primary components.

Like the earlier Green New Deal, Bernie's proposal looks to be government takeover of the entire economic sector. Pure socialism.

What else would one expect from a self-described Democratic Socialist?
The entire economic sector? Are you kidding? Please explain.
 
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