Believing VS Knowing

[Vicomte13]

Am I willing to kill my own child, yes I am. If God makes it 100% real for me and I can prove it was the God of the universe that told me to do it, I'd blow her away in a heart beat.

You would? I would tell him to do it himself. I am not willing to kill my own child to please God.

In fact, I am sure that if "God" told me in his voice to do that, I would round on God and tell him, angrily, that he was NOT God, and to get the f--- out of my head.

I did something very similar on a different subject. When God told me to stop eating his animals, I was willing to try to do that, because I feel pity for the animals, and had thought about that for a long time. I did have health concerns, though, because I have found that I don't do well without at least some animal food. So when God spoke to me again and said to stop eating his animals, I asked him why. He did not respond with what I would have expected - he did not speak of compassion, or lateralize. He said "Because I said so." Which surprised me, so I followed up "And what if I don't?" He answered, in a hard voice "Then I will kill you." At which point I rounded on him and shouted, out loud in broad daylight: "F... you! You are not God! If you ARE God, then kill me now! I DARE you to kill me RIGHT NOW! YOU CAN'T, because YOU ARE NOT GOD! GET the F out of my head you s-o-b!"

And I turned and walked into the nearest diner and I ordered a chopped steak - I had been planning to eat a salad.

That voice sounded like God, but I'm pretty sure it was a demon. Just because something can talk to you out of the air and do miracles doesn't mean that it's God talking. And just because God has talked to me once doesn't mean that something else can't mimic God and talk to me in the same voice, and tell me to do something else, something that even seems mostly right.

In the end, I alone am the final judge of everything when it comes to what I do and don't do. As are you, for you. As are we all.

And because that which is foul can mimic the fair, I need some sort of standard by which to judge. The Scriptures and the Canon Law of the Catholic Church provide pretty good standards, but in the end the judge who has to apply them, and who is accountable for their application, is me.

 

[believeume]

Not me. Never. Don't even care if it's in the bible.

No if God tells you, you must. Well God has already asked for children to be killed, and by the sword.

It's not like it's not in his nature to do that sort of thing, Christians should be fine with it.

 

[Tull]

If people united in learning, then they would eventually discover the answers. No more would the wool be pulled over the eyes of the common people by a corrupt system that wants people to live in ignorance.

No more would antiquated concepts like heaven and hell manipulate entire communities to pause in fear of loving each other free of the gun.

Pure humanistic fantasy with no biblical or historical support

 

[believeume]

You would? I would tell him to do it himself. I am not willing to kill my own child to please God.

In fact, I am sure that if "God" told me in his voice to do that, I would round on God and tell him, angrily, that he was NOT God, and to get the f--- out of my head.

I did something very similar on a different subject. When God told me to stop eating his animals, I was willing to try to do that, because I feel pity for the animals, and had thought about that for a long time. I did have health concerns, though, because I have found that I don't do well without at least some animal food. So when God spoke to me again and said to stop eating his animals, I asked him why. He did not respond with what I would have expected - he did not speak of compassion, or lateralize. He said "Because I said so." Which surprised me, so I followed up "And what if I don't?" He answered, in a hard voice "Then I will kill you." At which point I rounded on him and shouted, out loud in broad daylight: "F... you! You are not God! If you ARE God, then kill me now! I DARE you to kill me RIGHT NOW! YOU CAN'T, because YOU ARE NOT GOD! GET the F out of my head you s-o-b!"

And I turned and walked into the nearest diner and I ordered a chopped steak - I had been planning to eat a salad.

That voice sounded like God, but I'm pretty sure it was a demon. Just because something can talk to you out of the air and do miracles doesn't mean that it's God talking. And just because God has talked to me once doesn't mean that something else can't mimic God and talk to me in the same voice, and tell me to do something else, something that even seems mostly right.

In the end, I alone am the final judge of everything when it comes to what I do and don't do. As are you, for you. As are we all.

And because that which is foul can mimic the fair, I need some sort of standard by which to judge. The Scriptures and the Canon Law of the Catholic Church provide pretty good standards, but in the end the judge who has to apply them, and who is accountable for their application, is me.

You brought it up, why test me oh vicomte13.

 

[Vicomte13]

No if God tells you, you must. Well God has already asked for children to be killed, and by the sword.

It's not like it's not in his nature to do that sort of thing, Christians should be fine with it.

God kills children all the time. Mudslides down a hill in the Philippines that take out an orphanage. Not a sparrow falls without God's permission.

I "must"? If God tells me to kill my child, I will not do it. There is no "must" here. I will tell him to do it.
This is what free will is. I have read the story of Abraham. God told him to, he went and just about did it, and God credited that to Abraham. God is God, and he credits Abraham for that. I discredit Abraham for it.

Obviously this is why Abraham was particularly special to God: God could ask anything of him, and Abraham would willingly go do it, including killing his child. I would not do it. I would, instead, challenge the voice asking that of me, asserting that it was not actually God asking, but Satan masquerading as God.

For God to "prove" that it was God, I would put him to all sorts of tests, including showing me what comes next afterwards. And raising the dead, and healing everybody, and changing the world. Once God had properly done all of that and made everything better, to persuade me to do that. Then I would ask God to give me the power to raise the dead, so that I could raise my child back after I killed her.

In the end, God could make it such that I would do it, only because the "killing" would be meaningless. A meaningful, actual killing of my own child? I don't love God enough to do that, and I would pretty much despise a God that demanded that of me.

 

[believeume]

Pure humanistic fantasy with no biblical or historical support

Yeah no, that was a rant.

 

[Vicomte13]

You brought it up, why test me oh victome13.

Because the point of all of this is testing. Knowledge versus belief - it's a matter of testing.
Everything is a matter of testing. For me to believe something enough to actually change my sex life, it has to be TRUE, and I have to KNOW it's true. Otherwise, religion is just a very expensive, time consuming social hobby, and I'd rather socialize in more real and direct ways.

 

[believeume]

God kills children all the time. Mudslides down a hill in the Philippines that take out an orphanage. Not a sparrow falls without God's permission.

I "must"? If God tells me to kill my child, I will not do it. There is no "must" here. I will tell him to do it.
This is what free will is. I have read the story of Abraham. God told him to, he went and just about did it, and God credited that to Abraham. God is God, and he credits Abraham for that. I discredit Abraham for it.

Obviously this is why Abraham was particularly special to God: God could ask anything of him, and Abraham would willingly go do it, including killing his child. I would not do it. I would, instead, challenge the voice asking that of me, asserting that it was not actually God asking, but Satan masquerading as God.

For God to "prove" that it was God, I would put him to all sorts of tests, including showing me what comes next afterwards. And raising the dead, and healing everybody, and changing the world. Once God had properly done all of that and made everything better, to persuade me to do that. Then I would ask God to give me the power to raise the dead, so that I could raise my child back after I killed her.

In the end, God could make it such that I would do it, only because the "killing" would be meaningless. A meaningful, actual killing of my own child? I don't love God enough to do that, and I would pretty much despise a God that demanded that of me.

Well he has demanded it, and therefore Jesus has too.

 

[Vicomte13]

Well he has demanded it, and therefore Jesus has too.

He demanded it of Abraham. And Abraham went to do it.

If he demands it of me, I will not do it.

If the price of my salvation is killing my own child, then God can keep it because I am not willing to pay that price for it. I will not comply with that demand: it is evil.

 

[believeume]

Because the point of all of this is testing. Knowledge versus belief - it's a matter of testing.
Everything is a matter of testing. For me to believe something enough to actually change my sex life, it has to be TRUE, and I have to KNOW it's true. Otherwise, religion is just a very expensive, time consuming social hobby, and I'd rather socialize in more real and direct ways.

Hmm, I think you get the idea that with some viable evidence I'd go to the moon for God. But what can you do with an infrequent burning desire, a bible and prayer?

Not a relationship I like to be in.

 

[believeume]

He demanded it of Abraham. And Abraham went to do it.

If he demands it of me, I will not do it.

If the price of my salvation is killing my own child, then God can keep it because I am not willing to pay that price for it. I will not comply with that demand: it is evil.

I understand, so he wont ask you. So don't stress.

 

[Vicomte13]

I understand, so he wont ask you. So don't stress.

I don't stress. I'm merely making a point about limits, and about how in the end we are the sovereign judge in our own courtroom. We have to decide everything important.

 

[believeume]

I don't stress. I'm merely making a point about limits, and about how in the end we are the sovereign judge in our own courtroom. We have to decide everything important.

Let's wait for the other posters to show up, I'm sure we both will get thumped.

 

[Vicomte13]

Hmm, I think you get the idea that with some viable evidence I'd go to the moon for God. But what can you do with an infrequent burning desire, a bible and prayer?

Not a relationship I like to be in.

I haven't tried to analyze you specifically. I speak more generically. If you study the miracles, you will find that yeah, God is real. He's there. He's the source of natural law. He has given a moral law. If we follow that moral law, and work with each other socially to make it possible to follow his moral law, things will go better for us all. Don't kill, don't lie, be sexually continent, take care of each other - just do those things and there will be world peace and no real poverty. It is good to know that these good things that otherwise would seem to be mere soft human opinions are, in fact, laws from the divine creator, who actually, really exists, not as some pantheist natural force, but as a pantheist natural force with a mind and a will, who knows you.

That is empowering, because it causes you to be able to transcend the fear of death, and the worst that men can do, to be brave, to do right. AND it helps keep you honorable, from not nailing a piece of tail just because you can and it's on offer.

Men who know God can cooperate better financially, because they have a common plan. Of course, denominationalism puts a serious restraint on that - people really do seem to often despise each other across the denominational boundaries, which diminishes the cooperative advantage that Christians could otherwise have.

So, the reason to study the miracles is to get the structure of the universe itself set and fixed in your head. Then you can build on that as bedrock, recognizing that you can have the power of the universe on your side if when you realize that it - that HE - is there, and that you can have him on your side to the extent that you are doing things that follow the path he set out, as opposed to something else.

That's why it's important to me to try to teach from miracle: get the truth right, and you and I could look down the same sightline, and that means we would naturally bind ourselves to the same short list of laws and principles, which means that we can trust each other with money - which means we can build things together that others cannot. That's the big picture, and why it's worth trying to do.

I've tried this enough to know that it's a hard row to hoe.

 

[Tull]

I love these kangaroo courts where humans attempt to put God on trial

 

[mark kennedy]

Then you should make points that don't sound like religion vs. relationship.

Enemies relate. Relationship ain't enough.

Then what does Jesus mean when he says, Depart from me I never knew you. Or what is he talking about when he tells the Ephesians you have left your first love?

 

[Edmond Smith]

The Bible doesn't ask us to make a leap of faith or have blind faith. Biblical faith is entrusting ourselves to what we have good reason to believe is true. God didn't ask for blind faith - He gave reason to believe.

Couple of examples:

God makes a covenant with Abraham in Genesis 12, which requires Abraham to exercise faith. God reaffirms it in Genesis 15 and gives Abraham tangible reason to trust Him and the promise. God literally cuts a contract with Abraham according to the custom of the day. Abraham could reflect back on this when circumstances required faith. His faith wasn't blind or wishful, it was based on a contract. We often do things based on contracts - it's a common occurrence in our world. It gives us reason to place our faith in someone else to fulfill their end of the agreement and we act accordingly to keep our end. We invest ourselves, our time, our resources into something because we have faith in the other person due to the contract. In Abraham's case, the contract was unilateral - it was all God's to keep. But the contract gave Abraham reason to trust God.

Fast forward to Matthew 9. Jesus tells a paralytic man that his sins are forgiven. The scribes question Jesus' authority to do this. Jesus didn't answer that they should just trust Him blindly. He healed the man to give them reason to believe He had the authority to forgive sins. Jesus gave a tangible reason to believe what wasn't tangible.

Now when we are called to believe or have faith and trust in Christ. No proof is called for. Because there is plenty of evidence and reason to place our faith in God. The resurrection of Jesus was witnessed by hundreds of people was the major evidence that we have good reason to believe and have faith in Christ.

 

[Edmond Smith]

Also biblical faith is the personal act of placing your trust in what you believe to be true.

 

[Pastor Bobby Laws]

If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

How can one believe something they know?

The scriptures tell us to believe "on" Jesus. The devil and non-believers believe in Jesus. The way I explain it is like this: I believe in parachutes. I have seen them work on TV, so assume they work. However, believing on them on would mean me putting one on and jumping out of a perfectly good airplane. Believing on something means that you believe to point that you trust in it.
pastorbobbylaws.org

 

[Cappadocious]

Then what does Jesus mean when he says, Depart from me I never knew you. Or what is he talking about when he tells the Ephesians you have left your first love?

Communion, which exists only in certain concrete acts. Relationship can be had by bitter enemies. Communion can only be had by persons.

...Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works...