• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Believing VS Knowing

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Well I guess thats what it comes down to, who gets life and who doesnt.

You might want to consider this:
Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: (Romans 10:5-8)​
 
Upvote 0

believeume

NQR in the head.
Sep 25, 2016
376
83
Now I know
✟15,832.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Private
The Gospel lays claim to a revelation of sin, righteousness, final judgment, atonement and you can know all that and still go on to perdition. Abraham was promised a son and he laughed, Sarah overheard the promise and she laughed. When Isaac was born he was named Isaac because it means 'she laughs'. Also, Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness, Sarah is said in Hebrews to have believed the one who made the promise if faithful. If by know Jesus, if you mean in a personal way I would agree wholeheartedly. The indwelling Holy Spirit makes known to us the things of Christ and is the only one who can truly convince you of the truth concerning Christ.

In the book of Acts it says the believing Pharisees were the ones pushing for circumcision. Sergius Paulus believed at the preaching of Paul after seeing Jewish sorcerer and false prophet called Bar-Jesus blinded. There are other examples, Agrippa believed at least the OT prophets but did he convert? I claim to know Christ, it's the heart of my Christian profession but does Christ confess before the Father that he knows me, that's the question:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)
I know of no instance where someone came to Jesus and he turned them away, there are repeated examples of them leaving him.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (Matt. 11:29)
Christianity isn't about religion, it's about a relationship. I can tell you all day long I know him but do I love those who love him, do I seek to know and do God's will, I can say I know him but does he know me in the sense of Matthew 7:21-23? That's a difficult question and we should never be so sure of our profession we fail to consider God gets the final decision here.

Grace and peace,
Mark
The Gospel lays claim to a revelation of sin, righteousness, final judgment, atonement and you can know all that and still go on to perdition. Abraham was promised a son and he laughed, Sarah overheard the promise and she laughed. When Isaac was born he was named Isaac because it means 'she laughs'. Also, Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness, Sarah is said in Hebrews to have believed the one who made the promise if faithful. If by know Jesus, if you mean in a personal way I would agree wholeheartedly. The indwelling Holy Spirit makes known to us the things of Christ and is the only one who can truly convince you of the truth concerning Christ.

In the book of Acts it says the believing Pharisees were the ones pushing for circumcision. Sergius Paulus believed at the preaching of Paul after seeing Jewish sorcerer and false prophet called Bar-Jesus blinded. There are other examples, Agrippa believed at least the OT prophets but did he convert? I claim to know Christ, it's the heart of my Christian profession but does Christ confess before the Father that he knows me, that's the question:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)
I know of no instance where someone came to Jesus and he turned them away, there are repeated examples of them leaving him.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (Matt. 11:29)
Christianity isn't about religion, it's about a relationship. I can tell you all day long I know him but do I love those who love him, do I seek to know and do God's will, I can say I know him but does he know me in the sense of Matthew 7:21-23? That's a difficult question and we should never be so sure of our profession we fail to consider God gets the final decision here.

Grace and peace,
Mark
You putting high surety's on how you see Jesus, now remember Jesus is also the old testament God Yahweh.

Yahweh had no problem of mocking you if you returned to him only in a day of disaster.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
You putting high surety's on how you see Jesus, now remember Jesus is also the old testament God Yahweh.

Yahweh had no problem of mocking you if you returned to him only in a day of disaster.
Isn't that the point of the day of disaster? Repentance. Read Hosea much?
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Tell that to James

James was clear what he thought of religion:

Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. (James 1:26)
James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Exactly, my point was the relationship with Christ is the key to anything religious, not the rites and superficial expressions.
 
Upvote 0

believeume

NQR in the head.
Sep 25, 2016
376
83
Now I know
✟15,832.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Private
James was clear what he thought of religion:

Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. (James 1:26)


Exactly.
Yeah, but he's not talking about "Religion" the way we coin it.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
No I don't, I don't mind Yahweh shooting poison arrow's into me or my enemy. At least the old testament is colourful.
So what are the passages you have in mind here, returning to God in the day of disaster and God mocks you? Something from Proverbs comes to mind, what you seem to be alluding to here sounds like the prophets.
 
Upvote 0

Cappadocious

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2012
3,885
860
✟38,161.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Exactly, my point was the relationship with Christ is the key to anything religious, not the rites and superficial expressions.

Then you should make points that don't sound like religion vs. relationship.

Enemies relate. Relationship ain't enough.
 
Upvote 0

believeume

NQR in the head.
Sep 25, 2016
376
83
Now I know
✟15,832.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Private
So what are the passages you have in mind here, returning to God in the day of disaster and God mocks you? Something from Proverbs comes to mind, what you seem to be alluding to here sounds like the prophets.
That kind of stuff is all through the Old Testament, I'm like thinking is God really shooting poison arrows in people. No, metaphorical arrows though. I have a tormentor sent by him, a metaphorical tormentor. Who likes to punch me from the inside after dinner time, while I'm trying to relax.

It will start in 3 hours, I've learned to live with it.
 
Upvote 0

believeume

NQR in the head.
Sep 25, 2016
376
83
Now I know
✟15,832.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Private
"The just shall live by faith" when there are no easy answers or no answers at all this side of the grave.
If people united in learning, then they would eventually discover the answers. No more would the wool be pulled over the eyes of the common people by a corrupt system that wants people to live in ignorance.

No more would antiquated concepts like heaven and hell manipulate entire communities to pause in fear of loving each other free of the gun.
 
Upvote 0

believeume

NQR in the head.
Sep 25, 2016
376
83
Now I know
✟15,832.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Private
If people united in learning, then they would eventually discover the answers. No more would the wool be pulled over the eyes of the common people by a corrupt system that wants people to live in ignorance.

No more would antiquated concepts like heaven and hell manipulate entire communities to pause in fear of loving each other free of the gun.
Don't mind the rant, I'll get back to the topic at hand.
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟108,837.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm sure anyone who believes strongly in something will have similar story's. I bet atheist have testimonies of the natural convincing them of the direction they're going. But experiences someone can have about their position in reality remain wholly subjective. Mostly it's interpersonal and can't be transfered.

There are external, physical, examinable miracles. If you study them using forensic science, you will see where the physics are broken in this object and that it literally cannot exist under standard theory, but there it is, this object - a real miracle.

These miracles are not freebees. They all come wrapped in an informational package - they are instructive miracles. The miracle is there to be a miracle, and the fact of the miracle is there to make you look at the informational package.

All of these miracles - every one of them - has specific religious content. All of the miracles but two are Catholic. All of the miracles but one are Christian. That fact itself is informative. There is an argument from presence and from absence.

If you want God's existence, and Christian nature, revealed to your own eyes through objects anybody can study, it can be done. But nobody will go down that path unless he needs to.

Faithful Christians don't want to go there, and atheists don't either: prove God, and prove that God is a specific way, and you can't then wriggle off the hook - you HAVE to accept it. Best, then, not to see and say you don't need it. That's fine.

What isn't fine, and where I do have to object and intervene, is when the decision not to look becomes a foolish denial of the existence of such things. They do exist. They can be examined. If one chooses not to look at them, it is not because one is either too wise or too smart for that. Rather, it is because one prefers to remain ignorant of it.

I choose to remain ignorant of things all the time. Sports scores, the rules of cricket, various computer programs - the world is full of information I could learn, but choose not to because I don't want to invest the time. For many, the scientific study of the physical miracles falls in that category. And that's fine, that's a choice. But to assert in ignorance that such things don't exist at all, or are figments of the imagination, is a lie. They do, and they're not.

Do not assume too much. You're "sure" that everyone who believes in things strongly enough will have "similar stories". But in fact they don't. And there are people like Paul, or like me, who quite strongly did NOT believe in something, who then got tackled by reality and had their eyes forced open by superior force. After that they had no choice but to accept the reality of what they had come unwillingly to know.

When it comes to God, you're not in command. He can come in and force you to acknowledge his existence, and force you to reject the whole path of your life before that. Look what he did to Paul! He broke Paul, blinded him, humiliated him, forced him to be dependent on the very people he was going to torture. He forced Paul, by reality, to acknowledge in an instant that the religion by which he had sworn, and by which he enthusiastically made his living, was false and wrong, and the religion he hated most was, in fact, true. And he forced him - on pain of blindness, to go and put himself under the tutelage of the very people that a moment before he had despised.

Essentially, God took the cur, Saul, to the spot of filth that Saul had made on the rug, rubbed Saul's nose in it, and threw him out in the dark for a few days to suffer. He BROKE Saul. He broke his reputation - thereafter Paul would be detested by Jews, and beaten and at risk of his life, and distrusted by many, many Christians, who did not forget what Saul had been, and who did not trust his conversion. He left Paul physically crippled and promised Paul that He would make Paul suffer going forward. Paul would carry the message, and PART OF that message would be the ongoing example of Paul's continued suffering. Paul did it willingly, because he saw that he was wrong. Had he refused, God would have left him blind, to starve to death without Christian help. And then he would have thrown him into the fires of Hell at final judgment for the murder of so many Christians.

God was not nice to Paul at all. He put Paul through hell, as an example, BECAUSE Saul had put Christians through hell. Paul's reward was in the afterlife, not this one. And Paul knew it, and accepted his fate as deserved, because it was.

You want to believe. If God reaches out of the air and grabs you, then you know. And then what? Then you can't go back to not knowing and not believing, not ever. Because if you try, then you know full well you are being Judas, and then as the disasters pile up in your life, you will know why. God will not be mocked. If he takes the trouble to come out of the universe and space and time to look at you, mortal creature, straight in the face and say "HERE I AM", then YOU are stuck for life, and you're stuck following something you never wanted to follow, and accepting the truth of things you don't want to believe. And you know that - your wish having been granted - you are now accountable for the knowledge you have, and you cannot escape it by "disbelieving", because you CAN'T ever again disbelieve...because you know.

That's the difference between believing and knowing, which was your original question. You tried to get to knowledge through belief before, but you could not get there, because what you were believing was not, in fact, true. And the truth - the full truth - you would not have accepted. Even now, you could see the truth through your senses, by studying the physical miracles in depth. But if you do, you will come out the other end discovering that certain things you don't want to believe are part of the truth, and then you're stuck in the same sort of misery that Democrats will be in if Trump wins the election, or Republicans will be in if Hillary does: a reality you don't like, but can't change.

Are you really ready to accept ANYTHING that God shows you. If God reveals himself and you discover that the jihadis are RIGHT, would you become a fundamentalist Muslim? Or are there some truths that are so very unpalatable that, if they are true, you'd rather remain ignorant than find yourself forced to accept the truth of things you absolutely hate?

Don't kid yourself that people who have seen God or the supernatural are merely recounting subjective experiences. The physical miracles are not subjective. They are objective, and can be studied by forensic science - already have been. You CAN know the answers to what you seek. But ask yourself: Do I really want to, if knowledge meant that I would have to reverse my most treasured beliefs about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? If the reality of the universe will not make you happy because it conflicts with what you passionately believe now, do you really want the answer? Are you willing to become a Nazi, if God is a Nazi? Are you willing to become a racist, if God is a racist? Are you willing to become a homosexual, if God is a homosexual? Are you willing to do what you hate, if that is what God is?

Are you willing to kill your own child if God demands it of you?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

believeume

NQR in the head.
Sep 25, 2016
376
83
Now I know
✟15,832.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Private
There are external, physical, examinable miracles. If you study them using forensic science, you will see where the physics are broken in this object and that it literally cannot exist under standard theory, but there it is, this object - a real miracle.

These miracles are not freebees. They all come wrapped in an informational package - they are instructive miracles. The miracle is there to be a miracle, and the fact of the miracle is there to make you look at the informational package.

All of these miracles - every one of them - has specific religious content. All of the miracles but two are Catholic. All of the miracles but one are Christian. That fact itself is informative. There is an argument from presence and from absence.

If you want God's existence, and Christian nature, revealed to your own eyes through objects anybody can study, it can be done. But nobody will go down that path unless he needs to.

Faithful Christians don't want to go there, and atheists don't either: prove God, and prove that God is a specific way, and you can't then wriggle off the hook - you HAVE to accept it. Best, then, not to see and say you don't need it. That's fine.

What isn't fine, and where I do have to object and intervene, is when the decision not to look becomes a foolish denial of the existence of such things. They do exist. They can be examined. If one chooses not to look at them, it is not because one is either too wise or too smart for that. Rather, it is because one prefers to remain ignorant of it.

I choose to remain ignorant of things all the time. Sports scores, the rules of cricket, various computer programs - the world is full of information I could learn, but choose not to because I don't want to invest the time. For many, the scientific study of the physical miracles falls in that category. And that's fine, that's a choice. But to assert in ignorance that such things don't exist at all, or are figments of the imagination, is a lie. They do, and they're not.

Do not assume too much. You're "sure" that everyone who believes in things strongly enough will have "similar stories". But in fact they don't. And there are people like Paul, or like me, who quite strongly did NOT believe in something, who then got tackled by reality and had their eyes forced open by superior force. After that they had no choice but to accept the reality of what they had come unwillingly to know.

When it comes to God, you're not in command. He can come in and force you to acknowledge his existence, and force you to reject the whole path of your life before that. Look what he did to Paul! He broke Paul, blinded him, humiliated him, forced him to be dependent on the very people he was going to torture. He forced Paul, by reality, to acknowledge in an instant that the religion by which he had sworn, and by which he enthusiastically made his living, was false and wrong, and the religion he hated most was, in fact, true. And he forced him - on pain of blindness, to go and put himself under the tutelage of the very people that a moment before he had despised.

Essentially, God took the cur, Saul, to the spot of filth that Saul had made on the rug, rubbed Saul's nose in it, and threw him out in the dark for a few days to suffer. He BROKE Saul. He broke his reputation - thereafter Paul would be detested by Jews, and beaten and at risk of his life, and distrusted by many, many Christians, who did not forget what Saul had been, and who did not trust his conversion. He left Paul physically crippled and promised Paul that He would make Paul suffer going forward. Paul would carry the message, and PART OF that message would be the ongoing example of Paul's continued suffering. Paul did it willingly, because he saw that he was wrong. Had he refused, God would have left him blind, to starve to death without Christian help. And then he would have thrown him into the fires of Hell at final judgment for the murder of so many Christians.

God was not nice to Paul at all. He put Paul through hell, as an example, BECAUSE Saul had put Christians through hell. Paul's reward was in the afterlife, not this one. And Paul knew it, and accepted his fate as deserved, because it was.

You want to believe. If God reaches out of the air and grabs you, then you know. And then what? Then you can't go back to not knowing and not believing, not ever. Because if you try, then you know full well you are being Judas, and then as the disasters pile up in your life, you will know why. God will not be mocked. If he takes the trouble to come out of the universe and space and time to look at you, mortal creature, straight in the face and say "HERE I AM", then YOU are stuck for life, and you're stuck following something you never wanted to follow, and accepting the truth of things you don't want to believe. And you know that - your wish having been granted - you are now accountable for the knowledge you have, and you cannot escape it by "disbelieving", because you CAN'T ever again disbelieve...because you know.

That's the difference between believing and knowing, which was your original question. You tried to get to knowledge through belief before, but you could not get there, because what you were believing was not, in fact, true. And the truth - the full truth - you would not have accepted. Even now, you could see the truth through your senses, by studying the physical miracles in depth. But if you do, you will come out the other end discovering that certain things you don't want to believe are part of the truth, and then you're stuck in the same sort of misery that Democrats will be in if Trump wins the election, or Republicans will be in if Hillary does: a reality you don't like, but can't change.

Are you really ready to accept ANYTHING that God shows you. If God reveals himself and you discover that the jihadis are RIGHT, would you become a fundamentalist Muslim? Or are there some truths that are so very unpalatable that, if they are true, you'd rather remain ignorant than find yourself forced to accept the truth of things you absolutely hate?

Don't kid yourself that people who have seen God or the supernatural are merely recounting subjective experiences. The physical miracles are not subjective. They are objective, and can be studied by forensic science - already have been. You CAN know the answers to what you seek. But ask yourself: Do I really want to, if knowledge meant that I would have to reverse my most treasured beliefs about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? If the reality of the universe will not make you happy because it conflicts with what you passionately believe now, do you really want the answer? Are you willing to become a Nazi, if God is a Nazi? Are you willing to become a racist, if God is a racist? Are you willing to become a homosexual, if God is a homosexual? Are you willing to do what you hate, if that is what God is?

Are you willing to kill your own child if God demands it of you?
Am I willing to kill my own child, yes I am. If God makes it 100% real for me and I can prove it was the God of the universe that told me to do it, I'd blow her away in a heart beat.
 
Upvote 0

Landon Caeli

I ♡ potato pancakes and applesauce
Site Supporter
Jan 8, 2016
17,495
6,712
48
North Bay
✟794,795.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Am I willing to kill my own child, yes I am. If God makes it 100% real for me and I can prove it was the God of the universe that told me to do it, I'd blow her away in a heart beat.

Not me. Never. Don't even care if it's in the bible.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Vicomte13
Upvote 0