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Believing VS Knowing

Just_a_Joe

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If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

How can one believe something they know?

To know: to experience first-hand.
To believe: to accept as reality something you have no first-hand experience of.

No believer of Jesus can say they know him unless they are Joseph, Mary, John, Mathew, Mark etc. etc. Even Paul did not know Jesus, he only believed in Him.

You can't know anything in religion. Otherwise it stops being religion and becomes a simple fact.
 
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believeume

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I've been where you are, and am still distressed by my natural skepticism, despite the many miracles I've encountered and experienced. I've claimed God's promises, and then waited and found God wanting. In retrospect, I realize I just didn't wait long enough or want passionately enough. I recognize that such a witness is not much comfort to someone like yourself. So what can you do when in fact you can't TRY to believe and hence know God? The very concept of "try" guarantees an expectation of failure. So rather than be "apologetically correct," I encourage you to survey key elements of my path. They are expressed in 2 of my threads: "Speaking in Tongues and Spirit Baptism" and "The Spirituality of Premonitions" (both in the "Spiritual Gifts" section of this site. I guess this suggestion is another way of inviting you to explore the Charismatic Christian option--at its best. I say "at its best," because, in my view, 90% of their manifestations are of the flesh, but the 5% that are real includes the most electrifying and powerful spiritual experiences that are humanly possible to enjoy. I hope you sense why I say this when you read those threads.

Also, I suggest that you need to learn how to pray "the right way." On this subject, please consult my thread, "The Right Prayer Partner" in the "Praise Reports" section of this site. btw, The best and most practical 2 books on prayer are Richard Foster's "The Celebration of Discipline" and "Prayer."
I'm just not that big into reading books, I'm just not

And I just don't know why.
 
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believeume

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Intuition is the voice of our spirit, not an emotion. Emotions are expressions of our thoughts intended to move us to action in some capacity. Do I disagree with your point of emotion? No. Because once the voice of the spirit is heard by a mother the thought comes to her of the needs of the baby and the emotion follows for action.
Yes that is possible too.
 
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believeume

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Oh my goodness! WHY?

"Elementary my dear Watson!"

Jesus said in, John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

MOST of those who called themselves "jews" did NOT believe that Jesus was indeed The Messiah=Christ=Savior

Thus: In order to be Saved, one MUST believe that Jesus WAS indeed, "The Messiah"; which means Christ in English which means Savior. If one does believe that Jesus was "The Messiah", that person is saved and that person will forever believe "IN" Jesus. John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. If one does not believe IN Jesus; they WILL go to hell on judgment day; AND they will never have a blessed, etc, life on earth.

It is that simple. "Sin", or the lack thereof; and "works" or the lack thereof play NO role in salvation; contrary to popular consensus. Rather: Sin, or the lack thereof; and works or the lack thereof play a MAJOR role in WHAT kind of life we live while IN the flesh. IE: If you want to have a more peaceful, more happy, more blessed and more righteous fleshly life; you MUST first believe IN Jesus and pray ONLY to Him and "All of these things will be added unto you". What that means is: Jesus WILL lead, guide and direct the "saved" person into WANTING to do right and serve him.

In a word, it does NOT come from us. It is HIM and His holy spirit that causes righteousness, etc, etc, and etc. NOT the other way around; contrary to what MOST Christians and/or preachers believe and espouse.

Again, one MUST believe (in) that Jesus is the true Messiah. This IS the secret not only to salvation, but having a blessed, etc, life while IN the flesh.

May Jesus richly bless you and yours always,

patdee
Will read later.
 
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Deadworm

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As already mentioned, one of the conditions for getting to know Jesus is to meet His requirements for discispleship and to research what those conditions involve. But you refuse to learn by reading about the barriers that block your desire to know Jesus, and instead, you rely on more chancy insights from a chat site like this one. Your refusal raises 2 red flags that raise 2 questions:

(1) Why, then, do you imagine that you are meeting Jesus' requirement that you love God with all your mind (Matthew 22:38)?" If you won't even check out books that might solve your problem, how intense can your curiosity to know Christ really be? Remember, to get to know Jesus, you need the right kind of passionate longing for this quest.

(2) Why haven't you read the 3 threads I posted to help you and watched the videos posted on that thread? Don't get be wrong; there is no reason why you should take that suggestion. But surely you recognize that if you are unwilling to engage in the hard work of honest and open research, you can expect to get nowhere with your quest. Jesus often rebukes His disciples for being too deficient in perception to be teachable. What price are you willing to pay to demonstrate to Jesus (not to me!) that you are sufficiently teachable to be His committed disciple.

Hopefully, others here will suggest websites and insights that will stimulate you to action. I now gladly pass them the baton.
 
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believeume

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As already mentioned, one of the conditions for getting to know Jesus is to meet His requirements for discispleship and to research what those conditions involve. But you refuse to learn by reading about the barriers that block your desire to know Jesus, and instead, you rely on more chancy insights from a chat site like this one. Your refusal raises 2 red flags that raise 2 questions:

(1) Why, then, do you imagine that you are meeting Jesus' requirement that you love God with all your mind (Matthew 22:38)?" If you won't even check out books that might solve your problem, how intense can your curiosity to know Christ really be? Remember, to get to know Jesus, you need the right kind of passionate longing for this quest.

(2) Why haven't you read the 3 threads I posted to help you and watched the videos posted on that thread? Don't get be wrong; there is no reason why you should take that suggestion. But surely you recognize that if you are unwilling to engage in the hard work of honest and open research, you can expect to get nowhere with your quest. Jesus often rebukes His disciples for being too deficient in perception to be teachable. What price are you willing to pay to demonstrate to Jesus (not to me!) that are sufficiently teachable to be His committed disciple.

Hopefully, others here will suggest websites and insights that will stimulate you to action. I now gladly pass them the baton.
Many ways to get information, besides that the only book I ever read and re-read was the bible

Now it's down to zero.
 
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paul becke

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If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

How can one believe something they know?

Firstly, everything about our faith is ultimately about the heart, our heart and its responses to whatever we face in life, good and bad, and, of course, to the communications we receive from God, the angels, saints and Holy Souls (the latter, at least, as sometimes people close to their final death attest to, as well as near-death experiencers. Hence, mere credence is of scant significance, and need not be a gauge of the generosity of our heart. As St James remarked : 'The devil believes and trembles.'

Actually, most atheists are devout believers in the sense of mere credence, whatever their protestations, and vociferously express their deep displeasure with God because it appears to them that He doesn't seem to be compassionate, what with all the innocent suffering in the world - which is probably the most difficult criticism that Christian apologists have to counter.

However, the deepest spiritual truths, those of our faith, reaching up as high as the Most Holy Trinity, God, himself are increasingly paradoxical, and actually repugnant to reason. We tend to call them 'mysteries', because they are so unfathomable by our worldly analytical intelligence, such access as we are allowed, being granted, instead, proximately at least, to what has been called the 'unitive intelligence', which all mainstream religious traditions have identified as the province of the heart. And that means 'of the will' and of wisdom; the philosophical school of metaphysical voluntarism.

Consequently, it can be said that we actually do believe in what we wish to believe - in the Christians' case, that the life and teachings of Christ were/are sublime and worthy of belief (because by God's grace, they make sense to us) and , moreover, following from it : commitment to Christ's mission to live according to his moral and spiritual values, and to evangelize all of mankind.

Another way of looking at it, is to consider secular faith as its analogue. When we enter a room of an evening, we switch the light on. We don't know for certain that the light will come on, but we believe that there is there is a very, very good chance that it will. In a similar way, Christians check things out and interpret them in the light of our faith, usually positively.

On the other hand, atheists and some agnostics, when faced with 'slam dunk' proof pointing to a Designer and Creator of the universe, and any and everything else that might exist, and to other truths we can take for certainties, simply will not, will simp;y ignore the point and move on to another topic. Why ? Because they fear, rightly(!), that they would have to change their world-view and life-style. They do NOT want to commit to a religion such as Christianity, which would make major demands on their way of life. So, they do not find in Christianity, the extraordinary beauty that we Christians do, though their culpability lies in the refusal of their heart to defer to what ought to transcend their selfish carnal world-view. most notably, Christianity.

Dictionaries define a continuum as a 'confusion of concepts', such as space and time. I believe that, without Einstein's great insight, philosophers would say that trying to fuse them would be a 'category' error. However, as a lens through which to view time and space as the continuum we now know it to be, faith and knowledge as a continuum seems a perfect fit.

Little wonder , then, that, while other great countries such as China and middle-eastern countries made occasional scientific advances long before we discovered the same, it was only Christianity that really set science in motion as an ongoing project, prompting its adherents to believe in a divine law-maker and hence a Creation that would answer to certain physical laws that were rationally conceived to be understood by our rational minds, because its Creator was the supreme source of all Reason.

Scant wonder, too, that not one atheist has been responsible for a major paradigm-shift in physics. Those who were, such as Galileo and Newton, were not just routine Sunday worshippers, but exceptionally devout men. Only the power of his father was able to prevent from Galileo becoming a priest - but it doesn't suit our corporate, atheist media to broadcast that.
 
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believeume

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Firstly, everything about our faith is ultimately about the heart, our heart and its responses to whatever we face in life, good and bad, and, of course, to the communications we receive from God, the angels, saints and Holy Souls (the latter, at least, as sometimes people close to their final death attest to, as well as near-death experiencers. Hence, mere credence is of scant significance, and need not be a gauge of the generosity of our heart. As St James remarked : 'The devil believes and trembles.'

Actually, most atheists are devout believers in the sense of mere credence, whatever their protestations, and vociferously express their deep displeasure with God because it appears to them that He doesn't seem to be compassionate, what with all the innocent suffering in the world - which is probably the most difficult criticism that Christian apologists have to counter.

However, the deepest spiritual truths, those of our faith, reaching up as high as the Most Holy Trinity, God, himself are increasingly paradoxical, and actually repugnant to reason. We tend to call them 'mysteries', because they are so unfathomable by our worldly analytical intelligence, such access as we are allowed, being granted, instead, proximately at least, to what has been called the 'unitive intelligence', which all mainstream religious traditions have identified as the province of the heart. And that means 'of the will' and of wisdom; the philosophical school of metaphysical voluntarism.

Consequently, it can be said that we actually do believe in what we wish to believe - in the Christians' case, that the life and teachings of Christ were/are sublime and worthy of belief (because by God's grace, they make sense to us) and , moreover, following from it : commitment to Christ's mission to live according to his moral and spiritual values, and to evangelize all of mankind.

Another way of looking at it, is to consider secular faith as its analogue. When we enter a room of an evening, we switch the light on. We don't know for certain that the light will come on, but we believe that there is there is a very, very good chance that it will. In a similar way, Christians check things out and interpret them in the light of our faith, usually positively.

On the other hand, atheists and some agnostics, when faced with 'slam dunk' proof pointing to a Designer and Creator of the universe, and any and everything else that might exist, and to other truths we can take for certainties, simply will not, will simp;y ignore the point and move on to another topic. Why ? Because they fear, rightly(!), that they would have to change their world-view and life-style. They do NOT want to commit to a religion such as Christianity, which would make major demands on their way of life. So, they do not find in Christianity, the extraordinary beauty that we Christians do, though their culpability lies in the refusal of their heart to defer to what ought to transcend their selfish carnal world-view. most notably, Christianity.

Dictionaries define a continuum as a 'confusion of concepts', such as space and time. I believe that, without Einstein's great insight, philosophers would say that trying to fuse them would be a 'category' error. However, as a lens through which to view time and space as the continuum we now know it to be, faith and knowledge as a continuum seems a perfect fit.

Little wonder , then, that, while other great countries such as China and middle-eastern countries made occasional scientific advances long before we discovered the same, it was only Christianity that really set science in motion as an ongoing project, prompting its adherents to believe in a divine law-maker and hence a Creation that would answer to certain physical laws that were rationally conceived to be understood by our rational minds, because its Creator was the supreme source of all Reason.

Scant wonder, too, that not one atheist has been responsible for a major paradigm-shift in physics. Those who were, such as Galileo and Newton, were not just routine Sunday worshippers, but exceptionally devout men. Only the power of his father was able to prevent from Galileo becoming a priest - but it doesn't suit our corporate, atheist media to broadcast that.
Humble sound right about now.
 
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believeume

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To know: to experience first-hand.
To believe: to accept as reality something you have no first-hand experience of.

No believer of Jesus can say they know him unless they are Joseph, Mary, John, Mathew, Mark etc. etc. Even Paul did not know Jesus, he only believed in Him.

You can't know anything in religion. Otherwise it stops being religion and becomes a simple fact.
Know that he is real, not believe he is real.
 
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Anguspure

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If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

How can one believe something they know?
It is an interesting point.

Thanks to the work of apologists, most notably Bill Lane Craig, I have recently come to think that God exists as opposed to believing in Him. So I do know that God exists.

I also now know in a historical sense that Jesus of Nazereth lived, was crucified, died and the best explanation for the events that followed is that He actually rose from the dead.

I do, however, still believe that He is the Christ and that His death and resurection took away the sins of the world. I take these things in trust and choose to believe because I do not know the truth about them, but I do trust the person of Christ and the writings of His apostles in this regard.

I beleive that I can trust these because they are shown to be trustworthy on matters that are testable such as historical reliability, geographic knowledge, the honesty of conveying embarassing details, the inclusion of testimony from sources that were not regarded as credible at the time, and the sincerity of the authors in that they followed their Christ to death in the hope of a better ressurection.

So in this sense it is knowledge that preceeds trust that leads to belief that should then result in action.
 
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believeume

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It is an interesting point.

Thanks to the work of apologists, most notably Bill Lane Craig, I have recently come to think that God exists as opposed to believing in Him. So I do know that God exists.

I also now know in a historical sense that Jesus of Nazereth lived, was crucified, died and the best explanation for the events that followed is that He actually rose from the dead.

I do, however, still believe that He is the Christ and that His death and resurection took away the sins of the world. I take these things in trust and choose to believe because I do not know the truth about them, but I do trust the person of Christ and the writings of His apostles in this regard.

I beleive that I can trust these because they are shown to be trustworthy on matters that are testable such as historical reliability, geographic knowledge, the honesty of conveying embarassing details, the inclusion of testimony from sources that were not regarded as credible at the time, and the sincerity of the authors in that they followed their Christ to death in the hope of a better ressurection.

So in this sense it is knowledge that preceeds trust that leads to belief that should then result in action.
You have a most interesting mind, but not everyone would agree to those postulations.

On some level I do.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?
Since Y'SHUA MESSIAH was sent by YHWH for the SALVATION (HEALING) of men, that's really a mute question, isn't it?
Yet, to answer, "why do ... " :
it is because some Christians do believe in HIM, but do not know HIM.

In LIFE, (statistically on earth all the time), many more Christians believe in HIM than know HIM.
 
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believeume

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Since Y'SHUA MESSIAH was sent by YHWH for the SALVATION (HEALING) of men, that's really a mute question, isn't it?
Yet, to answer, "why do ... " :
it is because some Christians do believe in HIM, but do not know HIM.

In LIFE, (statistically on earth all the time), many more Christians believe in HIM than know HIM.
So you so know Jesus, beyond belief and it's become evident?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I don't get it, explain it to me.
Without faith it is impossible to please YHWH.
i.e.
without faith (not seeing, but believing anyway) a person is lost no matter what they do.
Whoever expects anything from YHWH ,
must first believe that HE IS, and then that HE REWARDS those who seek HIM.
Otherwise,
they might as well "go fish". (get nothing)
 
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Just_a_Joe

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If you tell your son, "I believe in you," does that mean you don't know him?

Believing that Jesus is real and saying "I believe in my son" who is standing right in front of you - are two very different things. When one says, "I believe in you", they usually mean, "I know you can do it", "I trust your abilities" etc.
 
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