Belief in the Trinity required for salvation?
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No, you're not answering the question a second time. I'm not asking you to judge them. I'm asking for your opinion as to what you think will happen to them.debiwebi said:
All I can gather is that you are saying you don't know. If you don't know, then you must accept the possibility that they can be saved. Which means Trinitarianism is not required for salvation.
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rebel_conservative
Baruch HaShem! Praise G-d!
No.
One of the most important statements of Jewish faith is the Shema - "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God! The Lord is One!"
Jesus (Y'shua) would have professed this countless times in his life, if He rejected it, or preached triunity etc, we would most certainly know about it. The fact that He didn't leads me to conclude that belief in the Trinity can not be considered necessary for salvation.
One of the most important statements of Jewish faith is the Shema - "Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God! The Lord is One!"
Jesus (Y'shua) would have professed this countless times in his life, if He rejected it, or preached triunity etc, we would most certainly know about it. The fact that He didn't leads me to conclude that belief in the Trinity can not be considered necessary for salvation.
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Wavy said:
Ummm . . . .
1Ki 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.
Multiple "gods" there.
Peace
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No. It means that we leave it up to God. It is the same as saying that perhaps someone who has never heard the Gospel can be saved if God wills it, but that doesn't mean that we believe that belief in Christ is unnecessary for salvation.
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linssue55
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Wavy said:
Elohim (אֱלֹהִים , אלהים) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity. It is apparently related to the Hebrew word ēl, though morphologically it consists of the Hebrew word Eloah (אלוה
with a plural suffix. Elohim is the third word in the Hebrew text of Genesis and occurs frequently throughout the Hebrew Bible. In some cases (e.g. Ex. 3:4 ...Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush...), it acts as a singular noun in Hebrew grammar (see next section below), and is then generally understood to denote the single God of Israel. In other cases, Elohim acts as an ordinary plural of the word Eloah (אלוה
, and refers to the polytheistic notion of multiple gods (for example, Ex. 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.). This reflects the use of the word "Elohim" found in the late Bronze Age texts of Canaanite Ugarit, where Elohim ('lhm) was found to be a word denoting the entire Canaanite pantheon (the family of El, the patriarchal creator god).Gen. 6:2 the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them for wives..., Ex. 4:16 and you [Moses] will be as Elohim to him [Aaron], Ex. 22:28 Thou shalt not curse Elohim, or curse a ruler of your people.
Hebrew word "Elohim", plural. (Deut 6:4)
....B. The Father, 1st Person. (Gen 1:3, Isa 53:10)
....C. The Son, 2nd Person. (Gen 1:1, Cf. Jn 1:3, Col 1:16, Isa 53, 63:8, Micah 5:2)
....D. The Holy Spirit, 3rd Person. (Gen 1:2 w/Psa 104:30, Gen 41:38, Num 27:18, 1 Sam 16:13, Psa 139:7)
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thereselittleflower said:
Half of what you said has already been refuted, especially about "elohim" having to indicate a plurality of persons.
Also, I didn't say there were any singular pronouns in that verse. I was speaking of other verses. How do you explain them? In order for "Elohim" to = plurality of persons, grammatically, plural pronouns should always be used. This is not the case.
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Thhese are all the Hebraic tensesXianJedi said:
from Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew definitions
H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God
Part of Speech: noun masculine plural
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: plural of H433
Same Word by TWOT Number: 93c
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XianJedi said:
It is appropriate for God to refer to Moses as "elohim" for Moses is GOD TO Pharoah.
God has made Moses His representative in all things to Pharoah, and so this makes Moses God in God's stead. . this is what God is saying.
God is a plurality of persons, so it is appropriate to refer to Moses as Elohim, God, a plurality of persons, in this manner for this purpose.
It reinforces our understanding of WHO God is and how He sent Moses to fully represent Him.
Please see above.
Please see above.
Peace
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thereselittleflower said:Ummm . . . .1Ki 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.Multiple "gods" there.
Peace
Not surprised you didn't get it...
Ashtoreth = singular deity. She is called an "elohim" here. So is Chemosh and so is Milcom. All individually are called "elohim", which was my point...
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I can't tell you that because I am NOT GOD .... It is a principle of the Catholic Church that if they are sincere their heart pure and they have not rejected for any otehr reason that God will not judge them simply because of this, but at the same time I CANNOT READ HEARTS EITHER ONLY THE LORD CAN .... And HE specifically told us not to judge anyone's final Salvation in Matthew 7:1-5 .... So Yes I have answered your question and you will not get me to trangress against a command from God either!XianJedi said:
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rebel_conservative
Baruch HaShem! Praise G-d!
Melethiel said:
But it confuses the issue. If Jesus spoke of Triunity, you can bet your bottom dollar that would have been used to condemn Him.
Also, if it was necessary for salvation, do you not think that Jesus might have mentioned it? The fact that He didn't leads me to conclude it is not necessary.
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linssue55
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The Godhead
1. Definition: (Points 1-4).
....God is one in essence, yet three distinct persons.
....A. Unity of the Godhead; (Acts 17:29, Rom 1:20, Col 2:9)
....B. Three Persons of one substance, power and eternity;
........The Persons of The Godhead all have 10 distinct attributes:
........Omniscience: all knowing.
........Omnipotence: all power.
........Omnipresence: infinite presence.
........Sovereignty: Supreme Being of the Universe.
........Veracity: Truth.
........Immutablilty: Unchanging, "not subject to change or variation in quality or nature or form".
........Eternal Life: timeless existence without beginning or end.
........Justice: absolute fairness, equity, judgement.
........Righteousness: intrinsic Good, intergrity, honor, uprightness..
........Love: infinite capacity for affection, esteem, respect, and pleasure of same.
2. Full title of God; God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. (Matt 28:19, 2Cor 13:14)
3. Each Person of God possesses identical Divine attributes, making them co-equal one with the other. (Jn 10:30, 16:15).
4. When the Bible speaks of God as being One it is a reference to the essence which the Persons of the
....Godhead share, whereas the unique names of each Person speak of the individual Person, and not all three.
5. Analogy to Light; This is only an example
....A. Light is composed of three elements; Actinic, Liminiferous and Calorific.
....B. Application; Although light is perceived as one achromatic phenomenon, it possesses three exclusive
........properties, each of which is a parallel to one unique Person of God;
........(1) Actinic light is neither seen nor felt; The Father.
........(2) Luminiferous light is both seen and felt; The Son
........(2) Calorific light is felt, but not seen; The Holy Spirit
6. The Trinity in the Old Testement:
....A. Hebrew word "Elohim", plural. (Deut 6:4)
....B. The Father, 1st Person. (Gen 1:3, Isa 53:10)
....C. The Son, 2nd Person. (Gen 1:1, Cf. Jn 1:3, Col 1:16, Isa 53, 63:8, Micah 5:2)
....D. The Holy Spirit, 3rd Person. (Gen 1:2 w/Psa 104:30, Gen 41:38, Num 27:18, 1 Sam 16:13, Psa 139:7)
7. The Trinity in the New Testement:
......Emphasis is on the individual Persons of the Trinity as expressed in their unique roles in the
......Plan of God:
....A. The Father planned</B> salvation; (Isa 14:27, Jn 4:34, 5:17, 12:44, 1:24; 1Cor 8:6, Eph 3:11).
....B.The Son executes the plan of salvation; (Jn 4:34, 5:17, Heb 10:7).
....C. The Holy Spirit reveals the plan of salvation;
...........(1) To unbelievers; (Jn 16:8-11).
...........(2) To believers; (Jn 16:13,14; 1Cor 2;10).
9. Jesus Christ is the only visible member of The Godhead;
.........(Jn 1:18, 6:46; 1Yim 6:16, 1Jn 4:12).
10. Doctrine of Procession;
.....A. The Father sent the Son; (Jn 17:3, Gal 4:4).
.....B. The Father and Son sent the Holy Spirit; (Jn 14:26, 15:26).
.....C. Christ sends The Comforter; (Jn 16:7).
1. Definition: (Points 1-4).
....God is one in essence, yet three distinct persons.
....A. Unity of the Godhead; (Acts 17:29, Rom 1:20, Col 2:9)
....B. Three Persons of one substance, power and eternity;
........The Persons of The Godhead all have 10 distinct attributes:
........Omniscience: all knowing.
........Omnipotence: all power.
........Omnipresence: infinite presence.
........Sovereignty: Supreme Being of the Universe.
........Veracity: Truth.
........Immutablilty: Unchanging, "not subject to change or variation in quality or nature or form".
........Eternal Life: timeless existence without beginning or end.
........Justice: absolute fairness, equity, judgement.
........Righteousness: intrinsic Good, intergrity, honor, uprightness..
........Love: infinite capacity for affection, esteem, respect, and pleasure of same.
2. Full title of God; God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. (Matt 28:19, 2Cor 13:14)
3. Each Person of God possesses identical Divine attributes, making them co-equal one with the other. (Jn 10:30, 16:15).
4. When the Bible speaks of God as being One it is a reference to the essence which the Persons of the
....Godhead share, whereas the unique names of each Person speak of the individual Person, and not all three.
5. Analogy to Light; This is only an example
....A. Light is composed of three elements; Actinic, Liminiferous and Calorific.
....B. Application; Although light is perceived as one achromatic phenomenon, it possesses three exclusive
........properties, each of which is a parallel to one unique Person of God;
........(1) Actinic light is neither seen nor felt; The Father.
........(2) Luminiferous light is both seen and felt; The Son
........(2) Calorific light is felt, but not seen; The Holy Spirit
6. The Trinity in the Old Testement:
....A. Hebrew word "Elohim", plural. (Deut 6:4)
....B. The Father, 1st Person. (Gen 1:3, Isa 53:10)
....C. The Son, 2nd Person. (Gen 1:1, Cf. Jn 1:3, Col 1:16, Isa 53, 63:8, Micah 5:2)
....D. The Holy Spirit, 3rd Person. (Gen 1:2 w/Psa 104:30, Gen 41:38, Num 27:18, 1 Sam 16:13, Psa 139:7)
7. The Trinity in the New Testement:
......Emphasis is on the individual Persons of the Trinity as expressed in their unique roles in the
......Plan of God:
....A. The Father planned</B> salvation; (Isa 14:27, Jn 4:34, 5:17, 12:44, 1:24; 1Cor 8:6, Eph 3:11).
....B.The Son executes the plan of salvation; (Jn 4:34, 5:17, Heb 10:7).
....C. The Holy Spirit reveals the plan of salvation;
...........(1) To unbelievers; (Jn 16:8-11).
...........(2) To believers; (Jn 16:13,14; 1Cor 2;10).
9. Jesus Christ is the only visible member of The Godhead;
.........(Jn 1:18, 6:46; 1Yim 6:16, 1Jn 4:12).
10. Doctrine of Procession;
.....A. The Father sent the Son; (Jn 17:3, Gal 4:4).
.....B. The Father and Son sent the Holy Spirit; (Jn 14:26, 15:26).
.....C. Christ sends The Comforter; (Jn 16:7).
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1Jo 5:7 And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.
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rebel_conservative
Baruch HaShem! Praise G-d!
if something is required for salvation, I am sure that Jesus would have been very vocal on the subject.
He spoke unceasingly about love and forgiveness, but made only one casual remark that has been interpretted to be a reference to the Trinity... does this not indicate that belief in the Trinity is not a requirement for salvation?
He spoke unceasingly about love and forgiveness, but made only one casual remark that has been interpretted to be a reference to the Trinity... does this not indicate that belief in the Trinity is not a requirement for salvation?
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linssue55
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If you don't believe in the Trinity......then you can't believe in the word of God, The Holy Bible!!!Wavy said:
The "PROOF"..........
Hebrew word "Elohim", plural. (Deut 6:4)
The Father, 1st Person. (Gen 1:3, Isa 53:10)
The Son, 2nd Person. (Gen 1:1, Cf. Jn 1:3, Col 1:16, Isa 53, 63:8, Micah 5:2)
The Holy Spirit, 3rd Person. (Gen 1:2 w/Psa 104:30, Gen 41:38, Num 27:18, 1 Sam 16:13, Psa 139:7)
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Wavy said:
did you ever consider the context Wavy?
Who is God speaking of?
What did they do?
He is speaking of the Jewish people.
They turned from the one TRUE God, Elohim, to gods and godesses IN HIS PLACE.
So, the Jews were treating these gods and godesses as if they were GOD Himself, elohim.
The use of Elohim here accentuates what the Jews did in their hearts . . .they replaced the TRUE God with false ones, giving to these false one the worship due God. Thus making these gods and goddesses "elohim".
Peace
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