Sidon

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On many christian forums, you find Threads that discuss "predestination", "Predestinated" "Predestined elect"..
And what i notice is that all of this, when its discussed, does not discuss it correctly.

Its the "predestined" part, that is the misunderstanding...

So, lets say that we try the basic...>"the elect are predestined".....
And lets not make the mistake of tying this into "vessels fitted for destruction", vs "God chose some for heaven"< as when we do that, we are discussing what "this side" teaches, vs '"this side teaches", and that is exactly wrong, because THAT is not discussing the verse correctly. All that is just fighting over theology.

See, we can't understand these verses, when they are not being discussed, because what one group says it means, is then rebutted by the other groups's theology, becomes the LOUD discussion.
So, the theology is argued, the POV is heated, but the verse isn't understood, and that is the fail.

Lets look at one thought with an open mind, and not a theological filter that has replaced any ability to even want to see anything at all..

Q.) What is predestined?

A.) That which is conformed.


The verse says...... something is predestined to BE Conformed. So, to BE, means, to become eventually.
Or, its the END RESULT of the conforming, that is the DESTINY, or what is : pre-determined to happen.

So, this is a spiritual SYSTEM. Its a system in place that starts and ends.
Its a process that has a start and has a end.

So, what is that Simply, according to God's "foreknowledge"?

See all that? That sounds complex, and if you try to SEE IT, using all the biblical nomenclature, then it just becomes a BLUR.

So, lets simplify and get rid of the confusion.
And if this does not agree with what you have been taught, then just think about it, and have it in there, and let it show you something else.

Very simply.
God knows it all.
He knows the end from the beginning and he knows who will be born again, and who wont.

And what is pre-determined to happen, to THE born again person?

They are going to be CONFORMED, in the END, and this is pre-determined for each who are born again, and that is the system that God set up.

So, what is pre-determined that God knows will happen (foreknowledge) to every born again person?
They will END UP< "conformed" into the image of Christ".
So the system starts with born again, and it ends up as "conformed into the image of Christ".

And this must happen, because God has predetermined and predestined this to occur to all the born again.
They will start as born again and end up as "conformed into the image of Christ.

Its like Spiritual math. Its an exact spiritual reality that is a process that starts, continues, and has a finalization.
The bible words are born again, elect, predestined, conformed, foreknowledge.
So, dont let all those words be confusion.

"Being Conformed INTO the IMAGE of CHRIST". : This is the "pre-determined" outcome fact of becoming born again.
You will END UP conformed, as this is pre-determined" according to the process that God set up as Salvation.

And God knows before you are born, if you are going to be born again.
And so He also knows that after you are born again, you will be conformed into the image of Jesus, as this is the pre-determine or predestined or predestination outcome and spiritual finalization regarding how every born again person ends up.
We start "in Christ" and we end up "conformed into the image of Christ".
See that process?
That is pre-determined, or predestined to OCCUR, to every born again person.
And God knows who all these are before they are born = Foreknowledge, because before you are born, God knows if you are going to trust Christ, or if you are going to die a Christ rejector.
And if you are the born again then you will be conformed into "The image of Christ", as God has predetermined this to occur to all born again.
It is in fact, Predestined to happen, because Salvation IS all that, regarding all the born again.

And the Foreknowledge of God, knows it, and it should as God created Salvation to work out exactly that way, regarding all the born again.

If you are born again, then it is pre-determined and predestined, that you will eventually be totally conformed, into, "the image of Jesus".
And God knows this before it happens, as HE designed salvation to end up, there.
And.....God knows who it is, per born again person, before they are born, = foreknowledge.

So, all that, is not the argument about "god chose some for hell", that always replaces the discussion regarding pre-destination AS the eventual conforming INTO the very image of Christ that is what is predetermined to happen to every born again person.
 
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fhansen

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On many christian forums, you find Threads that discuss "predestination", "Predestinated" "Predestined elect"..
And what i notice is that all of this, when its discussed, does not discuss it correctly.

Its the "predestined" part, that is the misunderstanding...

So, lets say that we try the basic...>"the elect are predestined".....
And lets not make the mistake of tying this into "vessels fitted for destruction", vs "God chose some for heaven"< as when we do that, we are discussing what "this side" teaches, vs '"this side teaches", and that is exactly wrong, because THAT is not discussing the verse correctly. All that is just fighting over theology.

See, we can't understand these verses, when they are not being discussed, because what one group says it means, is then rebutted by the other groups's theology, becomes the LOUD discussion.
So, the theology is argued, the POV is heated, but the verse isn't understood, and that is the fail.

Lets look at one thought with an open mind, and not a theological filter that has replaced any ability to even want to see anything at all..

Q.) What is predestined?

A.) That which is conformed.


The verse says...... something is predestined to BE Conformed. So, to BE, means, to become eventually.
Or, its the END RESULT of the conforming, that is the DESTINY, or what is : pre-determined to happen.

So, this is a spiritual SYSTEM. Its a system in place that starts and ends.
Its a process that has a start and has a end.

So, what is that Simply, according to God's "foreknowledge"?

See all that? That sounds complex, and if you try to SEE IT, using all the biblical nomenclature, then it just becomes a BLUR.

So, lets simplify and get rid of the confusion.
And if this does not agree with what you have been taught, then just think about it, and have it in there, and let it show you something else.

Very simply.
God knows it all.
He knows the end from the beginning and he knows who will be born again, and who wont.

And what is pre-determined to happen, to THE born again person?

They are going to be CONFORMED, in the END, and this is pre-determined for each who are born again, and that is the system that God set up.

So, what is pre-determined that God knows will happen (foreknowledge) to every born again person?
They will END UP< "conformed" into the image of Christ".
So the system starts with born again, and it ends up as "conformed into the image of Christ".

And this must happen, because God has predetermined and predestined this to occur to all the born again.
They will start as born again and end up as "conformed into the image of Christ.

Its like Spiritual math. Its an exact spiritual reality that is a process that starts, continues, and has a finalization.
The bible words are born again, elect, predestined, conformed, foreknowledge.
So, dont let all those words be confusion.

"Being Conformed INTO the IMAGE of CHRIST". : This is the "pre-determined" outcome fact of becoming born again.
You will END UP conformed, as this is pre-determined" according to the process that God set up as Salvation.

And God knows before you are born, if you are going to be born again.
And so He also knows that after you are born again, you will be conformed into the image of Jesus, as this is the pre-determine or predestined or predestination outcome and spiritual finalization regarding how every born again person ends up.
We start "in Christ" and we end up "conformed into the image of Christ".
See that process?
That is pre-determined, or predestined to OCCUR, to every born again person.
And God knows who all these are before they are born = Foreknowledge, because before you are born, God knows if you are going to trust Christ, or if you are going to die a Christ rejector.
And if you are the born again then you will be conformed into "The image of Christ", as God has predetermined this to occur to all born again.
It is in fact, Predestined to happen, because Salvation IS all that, regarding all the born again.

And the Foreknowledge of God, knows it, and it should as God created Salvation to work out exactly that way, regarding all the born again.

If you are born again, then it is pre-determined and predestined, that you will eventually be totally conformed, into, "the image of Jesus".
And God knows this before it happens, as HE designed salvation to end up, there.
And.....God knows who it is, per born again person, before they are born, = foreknowledge.

So, all that, is not the argument about "god chose some for hell", that always replaces the discussion regarding pre-destination AS the eventual conforming INTO the very image of Christ that is what is predetermined to happen to every born again person.
Of course we’re talking of God’s foreknowledge here, not our own. He, alone, knows with absolute certainty whose names are to be found in the Book of Life and whose are not, who will persevere to the end and who will not.
 
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disciple Clint

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On many christian forums, you find Threads that discuss "predestination", "Predestinated" "Predestined elect"..
And what i notice is that all of this, when its discussed, does not discuss it correctly.

Its the "predestined" part, that is the misunderstanding...

So, lets say that we try the basic...>"the elect are predestined".....
And lets not make the mistake of tying this into "vessels fitted for destruction", vs "God chose some for heaven"< as when we do that, we are discussing what "this side" teaches, vs '"this side teaches", and that is exactly wrong, because THAT is not discussing the verse correctly. All that is just fighting over theology.

See, we can't understand these verses, when they are not being discussed, because what one group says it means, is then rebutted by the other groups's theology, becomes the LOUD discussion.
So, the theology is argued, the POV is heated, but the verse isn't understood, and that is the fail.

Lets look at one thought with an open mind, and not a theological filter that has replaced any ability to even want to see anything at all..

Q.) What is predestined?

A.) That which is conformed.


The verse says...... something is predestined to BE Conformed. So, to BE, means, to become eventually.
Or, its the END RESULT of the conforming, that is the DESTINY, or what is : pre-determined to happen.

So, this is a spiritual SYSTEM. Its a system in place that starts and ends.
Its a process that has a start and has a end.

So, what is that Simply, according to God's "foreknowledge"?

See all that? That sounds complex, and if you try to SEE IT, using all the biblical nomenclature, then it just becomes a BLUR.

So, lets simplify and get rid of the confusion.
And if this does not agree with what you have been taught, then just think about it, and have it in there, and let it show you something else.

Very simply.
God knows it all.
He knows the end from the beginning and he knows who will be born again, and who wont.

And what is pre-determined to happen, to THE born again person?

They are going to be CONFORMED, in the END, and this is pre-determined for each who are born again, and that is the system that God set up.

So, what is pre-determined that God knows will happen (foreknowledge) to every born again person?
They will END UP< "conformed" into the image of Christ".
So the system starts with born again, and it ends up as "conformed into the image of Christ".

And this must happen, because God has predetermined and predestined this to occur to all the born again.
They will start as born again and end up as "conformed into the image of Christ.

Its like Spiritual math. Its an exact spiritual reality that is a process that starts, continues, and has a finalization.
The bible words are born again, elect, predestined, conformed, foreknowledge.
So, dont let all those words be confusion.

"Being Conformed INTO the IMAGE of CHRIST". : This is the "pre-determined" outcome fact of becoming born again.
You will END UP conformed, as this is pre-determined" according to the process that God set up as Salvation.

And God knows before you are born, if you are going to be born again.
And so He also knows that after you are born again, you will be conformed into the image of Jesus, as this is the pre-determine or predestined or predestination outcome and spiritual finalization regarding how every born again person ends up.
We start "in Christ" and we end up "conformed into the image of Christ".
See that process?
That is pre-determined, or predestined to OCCUR, to every born again person.
And God knows who all these are before they are born = Foreknowledge, because before you are born, God knows if you are going to trust Christ, or if you are going to die a Christ rejector.
And if you are the born again then you will be conformed into "The image of Christ", as God has predetermined this to occur to all born again.
It is in fact, Predestined to happen, because Salvation IS all that, regarding all the born again.

And the Foreknowledge of God, knows it, and it should as God created Salvation to work out exactly that way, regarding all the born again.

If you are born again, then it is pre-determined and predestined, that you will eventually be totally conformed, into, "the image of Jesus".
And God knows this before it happens, as HE designed salvation to end up, there.
And.....God knows who it is, per born again person, before they are born, = foreknowledge.

So, all that, is not the argument about "god chose some for hell", that always replaces the discussion regarding pre-destination AS the eventual conforming INTO the very image of Christ that is what is predetermined to happen to every born again person.
My only question is.....as you said this is discussed on every forum and also on this forum ad nauseam. AND as far as I can tell it changes nothing, those who believe one thing stay with that one thing. It seems that instead of celebrating the fact that we all are Christians we get stuck in the minor issues that separate us and all for nothing. Why try to convert people who are already Christians when we could work at converting those who are not.
 
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Albion

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And although both your reply, fhansen, and the Original Post itself described the one as meaning the other one...

Predestination and Foreknowledge are not the same.

Whether we believe in Predestination or we reject it, treating Predestination as if it were Foreknowledge accomplishes nothing.
 
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fhansen

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And although both your reply, fhansen, and the Original Post itself described the one as meaning the other one...

Predestination and Foreknowledge are not the same.

Whether we believe in Predestination or we reject it, treating Predestination as if it were Foreknowledge accomplishes nothing.
Some have settled on their opinion of how man comes to be saved, and whether or not man’s will is at all involved. Some have settled on more or less strict Divine determinism while the church, with this debate going on for centuries well before the Reformation, never came down on that side, of excluding man’s will totally from the process.

So foreknowledge could well play a part, even though there really is no before and after from God’s perspective. God knows all events in their “immediacy” as it’s been said, existing in eternity while we exist in time, with our moral choices being made, and perhaps changed, sequentially, within the dimension of time where, hopefully, our wills are drawn increasingly away from sin and into rectitude. From our side of the fence that’s all we can know. We’re morally responsible beings obligated to act rightly.

From God’s POV He already knows how we’ll choose, and even uses human choices, such as those of Adam or Judas or Pilot, for example, to ultimately carry out His plan of salvation for man. He intervenes, by grace, and yet does so from a distance, never totally overriding man’s will when it comes to his individual salvation, simply because He wants our participation. So it’s not either/or, but both/and.
 
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Albion

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God knows all events in their “immediacy” as it’s been said, existing in eternity while we exist in time, with our moral choices being made, and perhaps changed, sequentially, within the dimension of time where, hopefully, our wills are drawn increasingly away from sin and into rectitude.
Yes, God knows all things. But that's not Predestination.

Therefore, in a discussion of Predestination, for anyone to say that God knows what will happen doesn't do a thing to address the issue of Predestination.
 
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disciple Clint

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Yes, God knows all things. But that's not Predestination.

Therefore, in a discussion of Predestination, for anyone to say that God knows what will happen doesn't do a thing to address the issue of Predestination.
Well unless ever one is predestined to receive grace and God knows who will and will not accept it.
 
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Sidon

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Of course we’re talking of God’s foreknowledge here, not our own. He, alone, knows with absolute certainty whose names are to be found in the Book of Life and whose are not, who will persevere to the end and who will not.

Well, the "persevere" to the end part is a Theology that some believe.
Some believe that God starts your salvation, and you finish it, or not.

That is not my theology or my Faith.
i believe in the Gospel of the Grace of God.
My faith gives God, thru Christ and the blood atonement, full and all credit for saving me and keeping me saved.

See there are 2 theologies, at the end of the day, regarding Salvation.

1. "The GIFT of Salvation"...God keeps me saved the same way He saved me, = Blood Atonement

2. God started my salvation and now i work to keep it, by enduring.. etc.

One of those isn't true., and that's important to find out.
 
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Sidon

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My only question is.....as you said this is discussed on every forum and also on this forum ad nauseam. AND as far as I can tell it changes nothing, those who believe one thing stay with that one thing. It seems that instead of celebrating the fact that we all are Christians we get stuck in the minor issues that separate us and all for nothing. Why try to convert people who are already Christians when we could work at converting those who are not.

You asked why so many are trying to change the faith of other believers?

Well, if the devil can't keep you from being saved, then he'll try to ruin your faith for life, and he uses people to do it.

I never think of a "christian forum" as anything other then a online church where people should be able to go and grow.
Ive talked to forum owners and have been told that...>"well, we allow anyone to teach anything at all times, as long as they don't attack each other personally, etc". "As long as noone is extremely rude, we just let it run"..
And so i asked them.....>"but you would not allow this in your church. You would not just allow anyone who believes what you dont believe, to get in your pulpit, or teach your Sunday School"...
No one can answer this who owns a Forum, and that is why forums , all of them, are such hotbeds of chaos and confusion, with "you've been banned" as how they try to keep the fires under control.

Interesting, isn't it.
 
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fhansen

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Well, the "persevere" to the end part is a Theology that some believe.
Some believe that God starts your salvation, and you finish it, or not.

That is not my theology or my Faith.
i believe in the Gospel of the Grace of God.
My faith gives God, thru Christ and the blood atonement, full and all credit for saving me and keeping me saved.

See there are 2 theologies, at the end of the day, regarding Salvation.

1. "The GIFT of Salvation"...God keeps me saved the same way He saved me, = Blood Atonement

2. God started my salvation and now i work to keep it, by enduring.. etc.

One of those isn't true., and that's important to find out.
I agree with that. Both believe in the atonement and resulting reconciliation. Both can be plausibly enough backed up, sorta. I believe that, yes, now pulled out of the pit and adopted into Gods family, we have the ability, with the gift of the Spirit, and the obligation, by our willingness to remain in and cooperate with Him, to walk as one of His children. FWIW mine is in line with the ancient churches, in the east and west.
 
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fhansen

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Yes, God knows all things. But that's not Predestination.

Therefore, in a discussion of Predestination, for anyone to say that God knows what will happen doesn't do a thing to address the issue of Predestination.
It does if God doesn’t engage in sheer determinism.
 
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Albion

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It does if God doesn’t engage in sheer determinism.
Okay, then you are saying that Predestination is an issue.

Foreknowledge isn't. We all--Calvinists, Catholics, whatever--understand that God is all-knowing.

This means that to portray the former term as being a synonym for the latter one is an error.
 
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fhansen

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Okay, then you are saying that Predestination is an issue.

Foreknowledge isn't. We all--Calvinists, Catholics, whatever--understand that God is all-knowing.

This means that to portray the former term as being a synonym for the latter one is an error.
Not a synonym, more as a qualifier for the concept of predestination.
 
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Sidon

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I agree with that. Both believe in the atonement and resulting reconciliation. Both can be plausibly enough backed up, sorta. I believe that, yes, now pulled out of the pit and adopted into Gods family, we have the ability, with the gift of the Spirit, and the obligation, by our willingness to remain in and cooperate with Him, to walk as one of His children. FWIW mine is in line with the ancient churches, in the east and west.

God took the "ungodly" while they were still ungodly, , and made them righteous, because they BELIEVED., is all the born again.

And God never said...."ok, here is the deal....if you PROMISE ME you'll be good, and try hard, and endure, and present your body a living sacrifice, and get water baptized.....if you promise me all this FIRST, i will give you the gift of salvation.

Um no. He made no requirement on us, as if he had, then its not a GIFT he's offering.
God said that he will accept faith as righteousness. That he will accept your faith in Christ, to give you the RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ as "the gift of Salvation".

Accepting belief to establish you as the "righteousness of God in Christ", all starts with the "foolishness of Preaching". or as Paul said. "i preach CHRIST CRUCIFIED". and this is a stumbling stone to a self righteous person.

The FLESH, the religious spirit, want's none of that, and in fact will classify it as "cheap grace" "easy believism", but in fact, God offers salvation as a Gift to the ungodly. And this gift, places you as "ONE with GOD, In Christ", and "Christ IN YOU< the hope of Glory".

What a gift.
What a God.
What a love
 
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fhansen

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God took the "ungodly" while they were still ungodly, , and made them righteous, because they BELIEVED., is all the born again.

And God never said...."ok, here is the deal....if you PROMISE ME you'll be good, and try hard, and endure, and present your body a living sacrifice, and get water baptized.....if you promise me all this FIRST, i will give you the gift of salvation.

Um no. He made no requirement on us, as if he had, then its not a GIFT he's offering.
God said that he will accept faith as righteousness. That he will accept your faith in Christ, to give you the RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ as "the gift of Salvation".

Accepting belief to establish you as the "righteousness of God in Christ", all starts with the "foolishness of Preaching". or as Paul said. "i preach CHRIST CRUCIFIED". and this is a stumbling stone to a self righteous person.

The FLESH, the religious spirit, want's none of that, and in fact will classify it as "cheap grace" "easy believism", but in fact, God offers salvation as a Gift to the ungodly. And this gift, places you as "ONE with GOD, In Christ", and "Christ IN YOU< the hope of Glory".

What a gift.
What a God.
What a love
Um, no. It's nothing but humility-and Scripture- that causes a person to believe they must do their part, with some degree of fear and trembling, to work out their salvation with He who works in us. To do otherwise, to return to the flesh as Scripture warns us against would be to mock God and the work of His Son.

And in practice most people of whatever denomination know and live as if what they do counts, that they must strive, persevere, be vigilant, be holy, refrain from sin, remain in Him, put to death the sins of the flesh, etc, etc, in order to be saved. This is all made possible to achieve now by Christ and the reconciliation He wins for us with God. The new covenant and faith are not about relieving us from our obligation to be personally righteousness, but rather finally giving us that ability, the right way, now in partnership with Him.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing."
John 15:5

but with Him,
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people."
Jer 31:33

Man's first job is to get back together with Him. That's the purpose of faith. And then to remain in Him. Impossible without grace, but grace can still be resisted.
 
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Sidon

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Um, no. It's nothing but humility-and Scripture- that causes a person to believe they must do their part, with some degree of fear and trembling, to work out their salvation

First of all, look at what you are saying.
You are saying that God's Blood is not sufficient, and He needs you, the saved sinner, to finish His Blood Atonement.

You might want to reconsider.

Also, look at this phrase...>"work out your salvation".

Notice that you are working out what you have... what you already possess.
See that?
You have salvation already if you are born again, and you are to work it out.
You are thinking that this means to finish it, or to cause it to be completed.
But the verse says to work out what you already have.... as Salvation was completed 2000 yrs ago by Jesus The Christ.
So, to work out His salvation, given to us as a GIFT, means to learn how to operate within it, perfectly.

Also, "fear and trembling" is not to cower under your bed, sweating, and afraid.
But rather think of it like this..."In awe and wonder", we learn how to daily function correctly within the Salvation that we were given as "The GIFT of Salvation".

God's part in Salvation is to supply it.
Our part in Salvation is to receive the Gift.
 
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On many christian forums, you find Threads that discuss "predestination", "Predestinated" "Predestined elect"..
And what i notice is that all of this, when its discussed, does not discuss it correctly.

Its the "predestined" part, that is the misunderstanding...

So, lets say that we try the basic...>"the elect are predestined".....
And lets not make the mistake of tying this into "vessels fitted for destruction", vs "God chose some for heaven"< as when we do that, we are discussing what "this side" teaches, vs '"this side teaches", and that is exactly wrong, because THAT is not discussing the verse correctly. All that is just fighting over theology.

See, we can't understand these verses, when they are not being discussed, because what one group says it means, is then rebutted by the other groups's theology, becomes the LOUD discussion.
So, the theology is argued, the POV is heated, but the verse isn't understood, and that is the fail.

Lets look at one thought with an open mind, and not a theological filter that has replaced any ability to even want to see anything at all..

Q.) What is predestined?

A.) That which is conformed.


The verse says...... something is predestined to BE Conformed. So, to BE, means, to become eventually.
Or, its the END RESULT of the conforming, that is the DESTINY, or what is : pre-determined to happen.

So, this is a spiritual SYSTEM. Its a system in place that starts and ends.
Its a process that has a start and has a end.

So, what is that Simply, according to God's "foreknowledge"?

See all that? That sounds complex, and if you try to SEE IT, using all the biblical nomenclature, then it just becomes a BLUR.

So, lets simplify and get rid of the confusion.
And if this does not agree with what you have been taught, then just think about it, and have it in there, and let it show you something else.

Very simply.
God knows it all.
He knows the end from the beginning and he knows who will be born again, and who wont.

And what is pre-determined to happen, to THE born again person?

They are going to be CONFORMED, in the END, and this is pre-determined for each who are born again, and that is the system that God set up.

So, what is pre-determined that God knows will happen (foreknowledge) to every born again person?
They will END UP< "conformed" into the image of Christ".
So the system starts with born again, and it ends up as "conformed into the image of Christ".

And this must happen, because God has predetermined and predestined this to occur to all the born again.
They will start as born again and end up as "conformed into the image of Christ.

Its like Spiritual math. Its an exact spiritual reality that is a process that starts, continues, and has a finalization.
The bible words are born again, elect, predestined, conformed, foreknowledge.
So, dont let all those words be confusion.

"Being Conformed INTO the IMAGE of CHRIST". : This is the "pre-determined" outcome fact of becoming born again.
You will END UP conformed, as this is pre-determined" according to the process that God set up as Salvation.

And God knows before you are born, if you are going to be born again.
And so He also knows that after you are born again, you will be conformed into the image of Jesus, as this is the pre-determine or predestined or predestination outcome and spiritual finalization regarding how every born again person ends up.
We start "in Christ" and we end up "conformed into the image of Christ".
See that process?
That is pre-determined, or predestined to OCCUR, to every born again person.
And God knows who all these are before they are born = Foreknowledge, because before you are born, God knows if you are going to trust Christ, or if you are going to die a Christ rejector.
And if you are the born again then you will be conformed into "The image of Christ", as God has predetermined this to occur to all born again.
It is in fact, Predestined to happen, because Salvation IS all that, regarding all the born again.

And the Foreknowledge of God, knows it, and it should as God created Salvation to work out exactly that way, regarding all the born again.

If you are born again, then it is pre-determined and predestined, that you will eventually be totally conformed, into, "the image of Jesus".
And God knows this before it happens, as HE designed salvation to end up, there.
And.....God knows who it is, per born again person, before they are born, = foreknowledge.

So, all that, is not the argument about "god chose some for hell", that always replaces the discussion regarding pre-destination AS the eventual conforming INTO the very image of Christ that is what is predetermined to happen to every born again person.

RC Sproul's "Everyone is a Theologian" addresses all of these points. I would say it's a must-read for anyone questioning these things.
 
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Sidon

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RC Sproul's "Everyone is a Theologian" addresses all of these points. I would say it's a must-read for anyone questioning these things.

Does your teacher teach the pre-destined elect denomination view of no freewill,?
Or something different ?
Is he the classic Calvinist, or is he a slight calvinist?
Is he a hyper-dispensationst?
Does he follow Bullinger?
 
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98cwitr

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Does your teacher teach the pre-destined elect denomination view of no freewill,?
Or something different ?
Is he the classic Calvinist, or is he a slight calvinist?
Is he a hyper-dispensationst?
Does he follow Bullinger?

Sproul didn't teach me anything, but did reinforce and confirm all that which God's Word already imparted upon me. That said, I do still question Sproul's position on a few topics, but that's another topic.

Sproul was a Reformed Theologian and minister. He passed away a few years back.

Man certainly has a will, but calling it "free" is a misnomer in any sense that man is somehow causal in his salvation (ie: regeneration; Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31, John 3). Man is "free" to act within the confines and bondage of his own will; and whether that will is under the direction of Satan or God is the true crux of the issue at hand. In conclusion, and to agree with Martin Luther's take: reprobate man is free to choose from a multitude of sins, whereas man under Grace is free to choose from a multitude of righteous deeds. It is, in both cases, man's God-given nature that drives him to any "choice" and to do any action as a result.

I've never seen Sproul labelled a hyper-dispensationalist or even a dispensationalist; and I have yet to recall him mentioning Bullinger in any of his writings.

edit: Did some digging because you peaked my curiosity. Sproul seems to have been very critical of dispensationalism: R.C. Sproul: Dispensationalism Brought Us The ‘Carnal Christian,’ The ‘Sinner’s Prayer, And More Antinomianism - The Aquila Report

edit2: It does seem that Reformed Theology and Dispensational Theology do not agree nor mix well.
 
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Sidon

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Sproul didn't teach me anything, but did reinforce and confirm all that which God's Word already imparted upon me. That said, I do still question Sproul's position on a few topics, but that's another topic.

Sproul was a Reformed Theologian and minister. He passed away a few years back.

Man certainly has a will, but calling it "free" is a misnomer in any sense that man is somehow causal in his salvation (ie: regeneration; Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31, John 3). Man is "free" to act within the confines and bondage of his own will; and whether that will is under the direction of Satan or God is the true crux of the issue at hand. In conclusion, and to agree with Martin Luther's take: reprobate man is free to choose from a multitude of sins, whereas man under Grace is free to choose from a multitude of righteous deeds. It is, in both cases, man's God-given nature that drives him to any "choice" and to do any action as a result.

I've never seen Sproul labelled a hyper-dispensationalist or even a dispensationalist; and I have yet to recall him mentioning Bullinger in any of his writings.

edit: Did some digging because you peaked my curiosity. Sproul seems to have been very critical of dispensationalism: R.C. Sproul: Dispensationalism Brought Us The ‘Carnal Christian,’ The ‘Sinner’s Prayer, And More Antinomianism - The Aquila Report

edit2: It does seem that Reformed Theology and Dispensational Theology do not agree nor mix well.


Thanks for all the information.

What ive noticed is that the bad can do some good and the good can do some bad.
I know a young man.... he's about 26, and he drinks. Otherwise, he's a fine person.
Loving, honest, good.
A few weeks ago, he was drinking, as was his girlfriend, and they got into a fight because she felt he was not totally faithful. (unproven) So, under the influence, she literally attacked him in a drinking induced jealous rage, and was hitting and kicking. Well, he's big. 6'1", 218lbs, and reflexed a right hand into her face that broke her nose, and cracked a tooth and left her in a pile on the floor. So he is at once shocked into a state of panic and regret..
This is "felony battery", and COURT is on the way, with a Judge.
So, did God cause them to fight and end up like that, or did they let things get out of hand?
He's born again and im not certain about the woman.
So, i never give God credit for everything, as i can't see how that works out, in all cases.
-
-
Christians can behave worse than unbelievers, and some unbelievers are better than many Christians, regarding their behavior.

I know that you will probably read what i just wrote, and i believe neither Satan nor God chose you to do it.
I believe you chose to be here, because your will to do so, is free to choose this act.
Im here because im responding to people who are responding to me.
I could unplug and put on my headphones and listen to music, or go and see if UPS delivered my package, yet.
But im choosing to be with you, and with the other members, for a little while longer today.
Tomorrow, if God allows me to be alive and the world to be mostly the same, unlike what is happening right now in Israel, i hope to be back here to listen and share.
MY CHOICE.
MY will.

Currently, Im writing back to you.
I choose to do this, because i have the free will to choose to respond to you.
Being able to choose whatever you want to do next, is your freewill in action.
Your choices are not limited to anything other than time, money, being alive, place, and more choices.

You can choose right now, to not respond to me.
God didnt choose that for you, you will decide this.
The only way God would decide it, is if you stopped and asked Him, and He told you....>"don't respond".

God even gave Christ the option to not go to the Cross and Jesus was born for this purpose.
Christ CHOSE to do His Father's will....."not my will.......but YOURS".
Thats a choice between 2 wills and Christ freely made that Choice.
He was not made to do it.


I talk to buddhists, or anyone actually, all over the world, and a French Buddhist (Gwladys) was talking to me one evening about destiny and the grand design, and how we are just flesh puppets at the whim of whatever you call the "force".... God, etc.....and I said...so, if you go to your kitchen late tonight, and a roach is on the floor, and it runs.
Are you saying that God designed this..... millions of years ago, created this moment, when you would go into your kitchen, and see the roach and react. God crated this bug to be there, at that time, and you to be hungry at this same time, and go and see the bug. And God decided which way the roach will run, and how fast, and how long you will stand there......and what you would do next.
All this is pre-determined? pre-destined? Your Destiny ??????

So, they didnt really want to talk more right then.

Another thing.........how can God hold you accountable for the Choice of Christ rejection, if He made you reject Christ.?
How could God be just and honest and a "loving God", and do that to anyone.?
 
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