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fhansen

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God is not interested in the law being in your mind.
Well that's a bit strange-since the most important new covenant prophecy of Jer 31, quoted in Heb 8 & 10, says that very thing.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


This is not a law that is heard although the written law testifies to it. It aligns with this:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

He's interested in you becoming "the fullness of the Stature of Christ", while you are on this earth.
Thats the goal, along with some serious soul winning on the way there.
Maybe you could define "the fullness of the Stature of Christ" then. It would certainly include obedience and a righteousness that He now empowers us to emulate. And without that I doubt many souls out there would be very impressed with what we have to say anyway. And John tells us in his first letter that we don't even know Christ if we sin or don't do what is righteous. I think that's a problem too. There are plenty of people out there witnessing about God-who don't really know God.

God forgives all, and gives us the Spirit who pours out the love into us (Rom 5:5) that can fulfill the law in us while, as you implied, opens the hearts of those who need it most. But being born again is all about internal change, towards authentic righteousness, towards that love, IOW, about becoming new creations, not just about forgiveness. So we also must 'go, and sin no more'. And this is easy, to the extent that we love. And that is easy to the extent that we remain in Him and His love.

Sorry, but man's obligation to be personally righteous remains under the new covenant. But only God can do that, can write His law, the law of love, on our hearts, which is why the NC is all about being with Him rather than apart from Him. And being with Him is inseparable from faith. The adamantly unrighteous, those who reject love, those who reject Him, will still end up eternally apart from Him. So God's church can rightly teach, quoting a 16th century believer in this case:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

And there's no fear in this love BTW (1 John 4:18). And no condemnation (Rom 8:1). Because to the extent that we love there's nothing to be condemned of.
 
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Sidon

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Well that's a bit strange-since the most important new covenant prophecy of Jer 31, quoted in Heb 8 & 10, says that very thing.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

.

Nice verse.
But there is a context that is more important then just a verse.

its this..
What causes a person to become God's "son".
Is it the law?
is it the torah?
is it commandment keeping. ???????


So, if none of those can cause you to go to heaven, then as compared to what does, is how you have to realize your verse's context.
 
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Sidon

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Now that's good!

God is love.
The heart of the law is MERCY.

The law is given so that "grace more abounds".

The law is given to show you your unholiness, which then leads you to what makes you "the righteousness of God".

When an unbeliever is shown that the Cross is God's LOVE for them....
When a Christ Rejector is shown that God loves them.....

These are the winning seeds that we plant in the hearts of the lost.

We are not responsible for anyone's salvation.
That's God's part.
Our part is to lead them to the LOVE of God., and He takes it from there.
 
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fhansen

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Nice verse.
But there is a context that is more important then just a verse.
Well, it's more than a nice verse; it's the basis of the New Covenant. God, alone, can justify man, can make man just or righteous. The law cannot justify us but, as you say, serves only as a teacher, disclosing and convicting us of sin. We become sons of God by turning to Him in faith, now reconciled, now in communion with Him. From there we're absolutely expected to live as one of His children; we'd be mocking Him and the work of His Son who came to take away sins and provide us the means to remain and grow in that righteousness otherwise. IOW, we don't impress God with our righteous first of all, as if we had any, so that He then accepts us. That's the old covenant- to be under the law. Rather He accepts us first of all, as we are, as we answer His call, and He forgives sin and gives us the righteousness that we're made to have, possessing no real righteousness of our own to begin with.

"Apart from Me you can do nothing."
John 15:5

"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phil 4:13

And I've presented that same context many times in many different ways. The problem with some novel theologies is that they teach that God's no longer concerned with injustice in His creation, with whether or not a person sins after being born again (even though the unrighteous apparently earn hell), or they teach that sinlessness is guaranteed to those born again. But neither could be further from the truth-and fail to align with experience as well. In practice I think most believers live as if what they do counts. To the extent that this is done by the Spirit, there's no legalism involved. Read Scripture-for yourself. And consider the consistent teachings of the ancient churches.

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. Rom 6:22
 
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fhansen

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God is love.
The heart of the law is MERCY.

The law is given so that "grace more abounds".

The law is given to show you your unholiness, which then leads you to what makes you "the righteousness of God".

When an unbeliever is shown that the Cross is God's LOVE for them....
When a Christ Rejector is shown that God loves them.....

These are the winning seeds that we plant in the hearts of the lost.

We are not responsible for anyone's salvation.
That's God's part.
Our part is to lead them to the LOVE of God., and He takes it from there.
Far as I can tell, I wouldn't disagree with any of this.
 
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Sidon

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is that they teach that God's no longer concerned with injustice in His creation, with whether or not a person sins after being born again (even though the unrighteous apparently earn hell), or they teach that sinlessness is guaranteed to those born again.

The reason that Paul says to "reckon your old man dead"......is because the old man is "crucified with Christ".
So, on The Cross, Jesus dealt with the law and with all our sin., "having obtained ETERNAL redemption FOR US">
So our redemption is not based on our works or our sin confessing, or anything else WE DO.
But its only based on God's Blood Atonement.

The Lord had to fulfill the law to be able to resolve and end its capacity to judge us as "sinners".
Once Jesus did this, then the "dominion of the law" was replaced by : "you are no longer under the law but UNDER GRACE".
And that is why as "new creations" "in Christ" we are no longer "under the law".

When we were unbelievers, the law had the right, by dominion, to declare us to be "sinners".
But now this dominion, this "curse of the law", has been removed, and we are "under Grace".
This is why we are now become "new Creation" "Saints", as this is the correct term based on Christ's redemption having declared us "the righteousness of God, In Christ".
 
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fhansen

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The reason that Paul says to "reckon your old man dead"......is because the old man is "crucified with Christ".
So, on The Cross, Jesus dealt with the law and with all our sin., "having obtained ETERNAL redemption FOR US">
So our redemption is not based on our works or our sin confessing, or anything else WE DO.
But its only based on God's Blood Atonement.

The Lord had to fulfill the law to be able to resolve and end its capacity to judge us as "sinners".
Once Jesus did this, then the "dominion of the law" was replaced by : "you are no longer under the law but UNDER GRACE".

And that is why as "new creations" "in Christ" we are no longer "under the law".
When we were unbelievers, the law had the right, by dominion, to declare us to be "sinners".
But now this dominion, this "curse of the law", has been removed, and we are "under Grace".
This is why we are now become "new Creation" "Saints", as this is the correct term based on Christ's redemption having declared us "the righteousness of God, In Christ".
The reason we reckon or count or consider ourselves dead to sin is because now, in communion with God, we have that choice, that ability to overcome sin. So the very next verse continues:
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Rom 6:12

This aligns with Paul’s thoughts throughout Romans, including Rom 8:12-14
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

And this is because we now possess the righteousness to do it, by the Spirit, because of the reconciliation with God won by Christ.
“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

Grace is not merely the favor of God, but it’s the life of God in us: it’s life in the Spirit. And this is the only way to true obedience, righteousness, fulfilling the law- not by being under the law which can only result in an external pretense of righteousness at best. So, again,
“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

We’re now given the ability to do, with God, what we cannot do, on our own.
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Rom 8:1-4

The law can only serve to show us that we’re sinners, even as it also still accurately reflects what sinlessness or righteousness “looks like”, which is why Paul tells us in Rom 7 that the law is right: holy, spiritual, and good; we’re the problem, not the law. We become new creations because we are new creations, now able to accomplish what we couldn’t accomplish before, under the law.
“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it.” Rom 3:21

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5”:18-21

“Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that He appeared so that He might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him.” 1 John 3:4-6

“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

To know God is to enter into and participate in His love. By the greatest commandments we’re commanded to love, and in the fulfillment of those commandments all the law is fulfilled-and man’s justice is complete. Who could truly argue against that obligation? The gospel is not a get-out-of-hell-free-card for those who believe, as if God suddenly decides, after expelling man from Eden for his sin and man suffering centuries of exile from Him involving the spiritual death that this exile entails with all the sin that results and has been experienced over those years, with humans victimizing each other when man's will reigns, all the pain and suffering, to now change His mind and say, “Hey guys, time out, as long as you believe in Me and the work of My Son I no longer care about sin/injustice anymore, I no longer relate justification with actually being…well…just. Sin will no longer earn you death." That’s not the gospel. Past sin is forgiven. Now we’re to ‘go and sin no more’, by the Spirit, in communion with God.

And when we fail, if and when we depart fellowship with Him due to attraction to sin, we can, with metanoia, a sincere and contrite change of heart, enter into fellowship with Him again-His forgiveness always available.

The reason that faith is counted to us as righteousness is because it unites us with God, reversing the rebellion and subsequent exile from God that Adam initiated. Faith puts us back into actually having God as our God, back into right relationship and stead with Him. Paul’s whole point was to solidly distinguish legalism from grace, human-fueled “righteousness” apart from God from true righteousness, “the righteousness of God”, attainable only in partnership with Him. Anything done in and through that relationship is always good, finally.

We don’t even exist, we can’t ‘live and move and have our being’ apart from God. Everything we have comes from Him. But we don’t even have to acknowledge His existence. But when we do acknowledge that, along with coming to recognize and acknowledge His goodness, trustworthiness, mercy, and love, we now become connected with Him, and that relationship or state, itself, is the basis and essence of man’s own righteousness. It’s a matter of the will, now aided by the grace that brings us into contact with Him. We don’t decide our gender or the color of our hair or whether we’ll have eyes and a nose, or whether or not we’ll breathe, etc- that’s all determined without us- but when it comes to morality, moral self-determination, when it comes to sin, we have the choice, either to recognize God as our God, with His will being done, or prefer ourselves and our wills instead. We’re here to learn of the foolishness of the latter so we might embrace the former when He comes to call. Faith is the glue that starts our binding or fusion with God. We’re fully bound to the extent that we love Him with our whole, heart, soul, mind, and strength. Then sin would be completely excluded. That’s all to begin here even if it won’t be fully and perfectly completed until the next life, when we meet Him “face to face”.

The difference between the old and new covenants isn’t in whether or not we must fulfill the law or be obedient or righteous in order to be saved. We must do that in either case, in the manner the church as historically understood that obligation. The difference is in how this is accomplished, either under the law by works of the law (which doesn’t work) or under grace, by works of love, with obedience born of love. Either apart from God, or with God, IOW. God wants more for us that we can begin to imagine, which also means He expects more from us, with more expected from those given more, all for our benefit. Then He decides at the end of the day how well we’ve done with whatever we’ve been given.

And if you made it this far, sorry for the long-winded post.
 
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ozso

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The reason that Paul says to "reckon your old man dead"......is because the old man is "crucified with Christ".
So, on The Cross, Jesus dealt with the law and with all our sin., "having obtained ETERNAL redemption FOR US">
So our redemption is not based on our works or our sin confessing, or anything else WE DO.
But its only based on God's Blood Atonement.

The Lord had to fulfill the law to be able to resolve and end its capacity to judge us as "sinners".
Once Jesus did this, then the "dominion of the law" was replaced by : "you are no longer under the law but UNDER GRACE".
And that is why as "new creations" "in Christ" we are no longer "under the law".

When we were unbelievers, the law had the right, by dominion, to declare us to be "sinners".
But now this dominion, this "curse of the law", has been removed, and we are "under Grace".
This is why we are now become "new Creation" "Saints", as this is the correct term based on Christ's redemption having declared us "the righteousness of God, In Christ".

But that's not saying it's alright to sin as much as we like, correct? That even if our redemption is not based on our works or our sin confessing, or anything else we do, we should still want to do what's good, want to avoid sinning and admit our sins (agree with God that it is sin).
 
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Sidon

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The reason we reckon or count or consider ourselves dead to sin is because

The difference between the old and new covenants isn’t in whether or not we must fulfill the law or be obedient or righteous in order to be saved. We must do that in either case,.

Let me speak to your two comments.

First..... the reason we are to reckon our "old man" dead, is because its true.
Our Old man is "crucified with Christ".

Next, you say that we must fulfill the law in order to be saved.
Well, not according to God.
See. you've not fulfilled the law, if you've ever sinned.
So, you have, and now that's over.,..... so, dont continue to try to so what you've already failed.
You dont get a redo, or a do over, or a 2nd Chance to not sin, that first time.
You already did it, and hundreds of times since......since the first time you sinned.
So, you can't really be serious and talk about fulfilling the law, after all that, fhansen.

Instead, lets do what God told us to do.
Lets put all our trust into the ONE who has reconciled us to God, by His Blood.
Lets do that.
Lets trust in the ONE who has fulfilled the law, 2000 yrs ago, and resolved our sin issue by "becoming our sin" on The Cross.

Lets give CHRIST ALL the CREDIT for our redemption, and let us not for a second think that we could ever save ourselves, or keep ourselves saved.
 
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Sidon

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But that's not saying it's alright to sin as much as we like, correct? That even if our redemption is not based on our works or our sin confessing, or anything else we do, we should still want to do what's good, want to avoid sinning and admit our sins (agree with God that it is sin).

"present your body a living sacrifice". "mortify your members which are upon the earth". "be holy as i am holy".. "use not your liberty for an occasion to the flesh"..."walk in the light as HE is in the Light".
'He that hates his brother, is in darkness"..... etc, etc, etc.

See all that?
That is not Salvation. That is Discipleship, and you are to do it., and even more.
You are to give God your life, and come out of this world system. You are to love the things of God, and not lust (love) the things of this world. "If any man love the world then the love of God is not in Him"..

So, see all that? I know how to use all that to condemn you, and make you think you have to do all that, to be saved or to stay saved. And many will do that to you, because many are deceived.
What does this mean? It means that all believers must eventually understand, (The Apostle Paul's doctrine) and part of that is to recognize the difference between SALVATION, that GOD PROVIDES< and what we do after He has provided it, which is our discipleship.
See, most Christians, combine these 2 , as if they are the same, and that is because they are taught really bad theology by people who have no understanding of Pauline Theology, or the Grace of God.

And here is the worst part.
When a believer is caught up in all that self effort to try to "stay right with God" and "stay saved"< then they are in fact, "fallen from Grace" because their faith has shifted from faith in Christ.....to faith in SELF.
This is why these types all teach, works, works, works, works., as that is become their savior.
 
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fhansen

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Let me speak to your two comments.

First..... the reason we are to reckon our "old man" dead, is because its true.
Our Old man is "crucified with Christ".
Yes, as long as one understands that to mean that the believer is now truly made personally righteous as a new creation. And that being a new creation doesn't guarantee that the old man can't and won't rear his head- and even take back over. This new creation is not merely some positional change or declared state of being. Snow-covered dung-heaps are no different from Pharisaical white-washed tombs for all practical purposes and Jesus didn't come to leave things as they already are-which is how fallen man likes to remain anyway-but to make real change, to take away sins, to restore jsutice to His wayward creation, not to make people "pretend-righteous". We'd be denying Is 5:20 along with the new Testament in its entirety if we did so.
Next, you say that we must fulfill the law in order to be saved.
Well, not according to God.
Only if we ignore His Word.
See. you've not fulfilled the law, if you've ever sinned.
And we won't enter heaven unless we do fulfill it as prescribed by God and taught by His church.
So, you have, and now that's over.,..... so, dont continue to try to so what you've already failed.
You dont get a redo, or a do over, or a 2nd Chance to not sin, that first time.
You already did it, and hundreds of times since......since the first time you sinned.
So, you can't really be serious and talk about fulfilling the law, after all that, fhansen.
With God all things are possible-unless you think sinners will be populating heaven- and that God's incapable of restoring what was lost. And He created no one to sin-sin is an anomaly in His creation. The reason we sin is directly related to our distance from Him. Jesus came to rectify that distance, to heal that sickness.
Instead, lets do what God told us to do.
Lets put all our trust into the ONE who has reconciled us to God, by His Blood.
Lets do that.
Lets trust in the ONE who has fulfilled the law, 2000 yrs ago, and resolved our sin issue by "becoming our sin" on The Cross.
Yes, let's do that. Read the bible more conscientiously-for yourself- in order to understand what He actually wants.
Lets give CHRIST ALL the CREDIT for our redemption, and let us not for a second think that we could ever save ourselves, or keep ourselves saved.
Or, let's let God decide how He wants to save his creation, with our participation or without. He doesn't even need us to exist; He can certainly call the shots on our salvation. So far you've chosen to ignore a big portion of what He's revealed-in order to support the novel view you hold.
 
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ozso

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Lets give CHRIST ALL the CREDIT for our redemption, and let us not for a second think that we could ever save ourselves, or keep ourselves saved.

Or, let's let God decide how He wants to save his creation, with our participation or without. He doesn't even need us to exist; He can certainly call the shots on our salvation.

It seems to me you are both pretty much saying the same thing.
 
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fhansen

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"present your body a living sacrifice". "mortify your members which are upon the earth". "use not your liberty for an occasion to the flesh"...
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13
"be holy as i am holy"..
“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

Which is it then? You say we can’t possibly keep from sinning-and that this is expected for even a believer, in fact- and yet that holiness is a mark of a child of God. How much sin is ok and how much holiness is necessary? The two verses above teach that refraining from sin/gaining holiness is more than a sort of side effect, but necessary for salvation. Jesus did it all, so how can we continue sinning indefinitely?
"If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries.” Heb 10:26
""walk in the light as HE is in the Light".
'He that hates his brother, is in darkness"..... etc, etc, etc.
“For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:20

To be righteous means to be actually righteous.
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of Him. 1 John 2:29
 
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fhansen

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It seems to me you are both pretty much saying the same thing.
In one sense we are (probably more than one, actually): we both recognize the sovereignty of God in it all, and that man cannot be saved apart from Him, but in my understanding one must strive, persevere, work out their salvation, must, yes, work, following and doing God's will, the works prepared for us in advance (Eph 2:10), investing his talents, growing in holiness, but not by works of the law but by works of grace, works of the Spirit, works of love.
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6.

Man must do his part once he's been lifted from the pit and justified by God, in order to gain eternal life. And he can even refuse to be lifted to begin with; God never opposes man's ability to say "no" even if He covets and draws and appeals to man to say "yes", and to continue to do so.

And that concept, that we must cooperate/participate/do our part once enabled by the Spirit in order to gain eternal life, sounds like humble servitude to us, but arrogance to someone who thinks that it detracts from the work of Christ, who did it all, at least for those who believe. But, for myself, Jesus simply did more for us than simply win forgiveness of sin-He won us back the righteousness we were created for by reconciling us with God, a reconciled state of communion that defines righteousness for man by itself, and which remains and keeps us just-and increasingly so- as long as we remain in Him.

At the end of the day I think that most believers live as if what they do counts, regardless of professed theology, and that there's room for serious concern if they ain't doin' right.
 
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ozso

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In one sense we are, we both recognize the sovereignty of God in it all, and that man cannot be saved apart from God, but in my understanding one must strive, persevere, work out their salvation, must, yes, work, following and doing God's will, the works prepared for us in advance (Eph 2:10), investing his talents, growing in holiness, but not by works of the law but by works of grace, works of the Spirit, works of love.
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6.

Man must do his part once he's been lifted from the pit and justified by God, in order to gain eternal life. And he can even refuse to be lifted to begin with; God never opposes man's ability to say "no" even if He covets and draws and appeals to man to say "yes", and to continue to do so.

And that concept, that we must cooperate/participate/do our part once enabled by the Spirit in order to gain eternal life, sounds like humble servitude to us, but arrogance to someone who thinks that it detracts from the work of Christ, who did it all, at least for those who believe. But, for myself, Jesus simply did more for us than simply win forgiveness of sin-He won us back the righteousness we were created for by reconciling us with God, a reconciled state of communion that defines righteousness for man by itself, and which remains and keeps us just-and increasingly so- as long as we remain in Him.

The problem with that for some who are sincere, is they feel they could never do a good enough job to gain eternal life.
 
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fhansen

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The problem with that for some who are sincere, is they feel they could never do a good enough job to gain eternal life.
Jesus’ burden is light, not non-existent. The problem sometimes seems like some want no responsibility or accountability at all. God is merciful and kind and will do His utmost for His beloved creation but still has standards at the end of the day, and what makes for “good enough” for each individual is then for Him to decide. The parable of the talents gives a basic guideline IMO, however.

And we can have a strong level of assurance based on evidence of fruit in our lives together with God’s trustworthiness but still balanced and guarded by the fact that we’re limited, weak, and sinful beings; we’re the wildcard, not God. So we just can’t have perfect certainty, and humility, itself, demands this IMO.

Anyway, I’m repeating here but for me the standard or obligation is given in its most concise form by this statement of a 16th century Christian, quoted in the Catholic catechism:
At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

To the extent that we’ve arrived at meeting that standard, even though not yet perfectly in this life, God has produced something, something of greater value than He began with as we’ve cooperated in blossoming into beings modeled after Himself. And in any case to the extent that we agree with that quote, we understand the gospel.
 
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ozso

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Jesus’ burden is light, not non-existent. The problem sometimes seems like some want no responsibility or accountability at all. God is merciful and kind and will do His utmost for His beloved creation but still has standards at the end of the day, and what makes for “good enough” for each individual is then for Him to decide. The parable of the talents gives a basic guideline IMO, however.

And we can have a strong level of assurance based on evidence of fruit in our lives together with God’s trustworthiness but still balanced and guarded by the fact that we’re limited, weak, and sinful beings; we’re the wildcard, not God. So we just can’t have perfect certainty, and humility, itself, demands this IMO.

Anyway, I’m repeating here but for me the standard or obligation is given in its most concise form by this statement of a 16th century Christian, quoted in the Catholic catechism:
At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

To the extent that we’ve arrived at meeting that standard, even though not yet perfectly in this life, God has produced something, something of greater value than He began with as we’ve cooperated in blossoming into beings modeled after Himself. And in any case to the extent that we agree with that quote, we understand the gospel.

How is love quantified?
 
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