baptism necessary to be saved???

[suzie]

I was just wondering where your support from the Bible was for the statements that you have made. I'm not trying to be rude, but in a discussion like this, I think that it is necessary to post at least some scripture references to what you believe so that others might study and learn. That is after all the point of even getting on here .
I think an important verse that needs to be considered is Psalm 119:160 in that the sum or totality of God's word is truth. If we are not considering everything that God has said in light of everything else, then we are not considering the Truth.
Mark 16:16 ASV
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Let's briefly take this sentence apart and look at what it says. The sentence says "He shall be saved". This is the point and final meaning of all these words, that someone will be saved. So now our question is who will be saved? Is it the person who only believes? NO, for the sentence says believes AND is baptized. These two things together are both necessary for salvation and can be written as a simple mathematical equation:
Belief + Baptism = Salvation
Unbelief + Baptism = Condemnation
Belief does not equal Belief + Baptism and can therefore not = Salvation
Baptism does not equal Belief + Baptism and can therefore not = Salvation
Thise verse, words of Christ, plainly lays it all on the table: belief and baptism, both with each other, are necessary for our salvation. Any alteration of the formula results in condemnation.

I think first of all its interesting that you say we should consider the sum of what God says and then take one verse and pick it apart and make a "clear" endorsement for baptism as necessary for salvation....

If baptism were essential for salvation we would find that wherever the Gospel is presented in Scripture. However, this is not the case.

In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." If baptism is a necessary component for salvation then we are saying that Christ's work on the cross is not enough. You are saying that we need to add something to what He did in order to make salvation complete. To say what God did is not complete, is against everything taught in Scripture.

Other Scriptural references also confirm this:

Romans 10:9-10 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

1 Peter 1:18-19 "Knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ."

In Luke 23,as well, when the thief on the cross next to Jesus asked for remembrance, and he was not baptized. The Lord still said he would be in heaven.
Just remember, there's nothing that we can do to make Christ's sacrifice "more perfect".

Isaiah 64:6 tells us that even good deeds done in our own strength are unclean before the Lord.

Instead Baptism is an outward sign of an inner reality.

 

[aggie03]

Instead Baptism is an outward sign of an inner reality.

I'm glad that you've written back! Think about the things that you've just said about being heard wherever the gospel is preached. Baptism was heard where the gospel was preached. Let's look at some examples from Acts

Acts 2:37,38ASV

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This is the first gospel sermon ever preached, and in it is included baptism for the remission of sins.

Act 8:35-38 ASV

And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached unto him Jesus. (36) And as they went on the way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch saith, Behold, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? (37) And Philip said, If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (38) And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Philip preached JESUS to the Eunuch and from that the Eunuch understood that he needed to be baptized. This means that baptism is included in the gospel preaching of Jesus.

Mat 28:19-20 ASV

Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: (20) teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

The apostles were given the command to baptize those who they had converted in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If they were doing what CHRIST told them to do, whenever they preached the gospel, baptism was included.

I think a point of confusion you may be having is that the epistles were not written to convert people to Christ, they were written to those who were already Christians as a way of explaining, reprooving, exhorting and edifying. The people to whom the epistles were written had already heard the gospel preached to them and had already been baptized.

So, yes, wherever the gospel was preached baptism was included. Here's another verse to consider that says straight up what the verse from Mark 16 says.

1Pe 3:21 KJV

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This baptism says it straightforward. Just like Noah was saved through water, so are we saved through water. Not because the water somehow washes us, but because this is how we are connected with the ressurection of Christ so that we might walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:6, John 3:5)

Baptism, as far as the gospel of Christ is concerned, is necessary for our salvation.

 

[suzie]

You have not addressed my Scripture, but instead seek to push your point of view. You have made up your mind or your church has that this is what you believe. I have made up my mind. Therefore, this type of dialogue is going to be redundant unless we are debating which I dont think we are supposed to be doing.....right?
So to me baptism as essential to salvation is adding works to the saving grace. NOTHING we do can save us. Not dipping in water, not standing on our heads, or reciting prayer. It is an inward conversion of our hearts that includes faith and grace.

 

[aggie03]

You have not addressed my Scripture, but instead seek to push your point of view. You have made up your mind or your church has that this is what you believe. I have made up my mind. Therefore, this type of dialogue is going to be redundant unless we are debating which I dont think we are supposed to be doing.....right?
So to me baptism as essential to salvation is adding works to the saving grace. NOTHING we do can save us. Not dipping in water, not standing on our heads, or reciting prayer. It is an inward conversion of our hearts that includes faith and grace.

I was addressing something that you said, I promise . In your last post you wrote that baptism is a sign. I was showing where the Bible says that it is not a sign, but a necessity, while there has been no scripture cited yet as to indicate what you claim. I also addressed all of the other verses you presented in mentioning who the epistles, which you primarily quoted from, were written to and for.

I would also like to understand how you harmonize your view of baptism as a work if you don't consider believing, repenting, or confessing to be works when they are all things that we have to do. Perhaps baptism is just another condition on receiving salvation through the grace of God, just like believing, repenting and confessing.

I really appreciate the discussion that we're having, and am thankful for your replies .

 

[suzie]

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 'Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." Acts 10:44-48


This group of Gentiles were saved. The Holy Spirit had been poured out on them. They spoke in tongues which is a spiritual gift for believers. They praised God which believers would do--not unbelievers. They were saved --then they received baptism. They would be publicly identifying themselves with the community of Christ.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

you go girl

 

[aggie03]

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 'Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." Acts 10:44-48

I’m very glad that you’ve brought this verse up, as this is often a stumbling point for people when they are trying to study and find the truth about baptism. It’s very easy to assume that just because these Gentiles were given gifts, like the Jews, that they were automatically saved. This is just not the case, and there is no scriptural evidence to support that view. Rather, the reason that they were given these gifts was so that the promise God had made to Abraham so long ago would finally come to fruition.

Genesis 22:18 KJV

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The emphasis that people often miss in this passage isn’t that Cornelius and the others were saved when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit – because they weren’t – but rather that the salvation, which had previously been preached only to the Jews, was available also to Greeks!

This group of Gentiles were saved. The Holy Spirit had been poured out on them. They spoke in tongues which is a spiritual gift for believers. They praised God which believers would do--not unbelievers. They were saved --then they received baptism. They would be publicly identifying themselves with the community of Christ.

Let’s look at the very beginning of chapter 10 to see what kind of a man Cornelius was:

Act 10:1-2 ASV

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian [band], (2) [A] devout [man], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.

Cornelius believed in God – he just hadn’t heard the truth. Cornelius praised God and prayed to him – he just hadn’t heard the truth. When Peter came, he preached unto Cornelius and his house the gospel of Christ, and after hearing the Truth and believing it, then they were baptized for the remission of their sins. After this, and only after this were they saved – not when there were those speaking in tongues. Peter commanded that all be baptized (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1Pet 3:21).

The idea that the people with whom Peter was speaking were saved before baptism DOES NOT harmonize with the rest of the scriptures when we consider the sum of God’s word. And I have still seen no where in scripture that specifically identifies baptism with being only an act of identification. Baptism is one of the conditions that God has placed on our receiving salvation through His grace .

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Baptism by water or Baptism by Spirit

which saves

spirit

plain and simple study all those verses and you still arguing with God not us 2peter 1:19-21

 

[suzie]

Aggie, on the contrary, this verse shows that God extended salvation to the Gentiles and speaking in tongues was proof of this.

Show me support that God gifted unbelievers with this gift.

Peter said "they HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT" Salvation is receiving the Holy Spirit.
Then water.....

 

[Garbru]

Baptism by water or Baptism by Spirit

which saves

spirit

plain and simple study all those verses and you still arguing with God not us 2peter 1:19-21

From what I read and understand you are saved when you accept Jesus into your heart as your Lord and savior. However after we receive him into our heart what we need to do is to study the word of God and live how the Lord wants us to to the best of our ability. Being Baptised for the remission of our sins is part of what the Lord wants so we shoud do it.

 

[mrsjordanjr]

This topic was mentioned on a radio show in my area the other day. 'Do Babies That Die Go To Heaven or Hell?' was the posing question. The speaker went into lengthy detail and quoted many passages which indicated that anyone who is not mentally capable of choosing to sin against God, despite the fact that they are born into sin, is Saved by Grace.

Interesting to note that EVERYONE, including "normal people", is Saved by Grace. No matter what you do, where you come from, what your status is in this life there is only one way to heaven - Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ is a GIFT to all the world. All you have to do is believe (if you're capable in this life).

Aborted babies, miscarried babies and mentally challenged persons (typically referred to as having a childlike mind) are in God's definition of EVERYONE. Who's to say that God does not speak their language? Who's to say that even a mute person does not speak with God?

Luke 18

1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; 2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: 3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. 4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; 5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me. 6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. 15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. 18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is a GIFT. Baptism is a sacrament that increases the faith of a believer as is Communion. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is a renewing of your mind. This is my layman's term definitions.

In Christ,
mrsjordanjr

 

[aggie03]

Aggie, on the contrary, this verse shows that God extended salvation to the Gentiles and speaking in tongues was proof of this.

I agree with you here that this was the purpose of this entire passage. Let's take a look at the context surrounding the situation:

Acts 10:9-19 ASV

Now on the morrow, as they were on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour: (10) and he became hungry, and desired to eat: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance; (11) and he beholdeth the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth: (12) wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts and creeping things of the earth and birds of the heaven. (13) And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill and eat. (14) But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common and unclean. (15) And a voice came unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, make not thou common. (16) And this was done thrice: and straightway the vessel was received up into heaven. (17) Now while Peter was much perplexed in himself what the vision which he had seen might mean, behold, the men that were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon's house, stood before the gate, (18) and called and asked whether Simon, who was surnamed Peter, were lodging there. (19) And while Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

Up until this point in time the Jews considered the Gentiles to be dirty, unclean, and therefore the gospel of Christ had never been preached to them. Peter doesn’t understand the meaning behind the vision at first (remember he’s the only one whose had it or knows about yet) but gradually he begins to understand. Peter had a vision from God, but what about all the other Jews? They had no such vision, and after so many years of being unable to associate with Gentiles it would be hard, if not impossible for them to just make the switch. This is the reason for the miracle. Miracles have always been to prove what God says is true or to carry out His divine purpose. Can you think of better proof? The Scriptures say that those of the circumcision (Jews) were amazed when they saw this – what God had promised – that all nations would be blessed – was true!

Show me support that God gifted unbelievers with this gift.

I don’t need to show you support that this happened to unbelievers, because it didn’t. Cornelius and his house believed what they heard Peter preaching about Christ – but this belief DID NOT save them. Rather, after they believed Peter ordered them to be baptized in the name of Christ for the remission of their sins so that they might meet all of the conditions God places on salvation. They had to hear the word (Romans 10:17), Believe (Mark 16:16), Confess (Romans 10:9), Repent (Acts 2:38), and be baptized (Mark 16:16). The SUM of God’s Word teaches that all of these conditions are necessary to receive His grace – and this is why Peter had those Gentiles who were present baptized in the name of Christ.

Again, there has been no explicit evidence offered to show, scripturally, that baptism is merely a symbol of identification with a community. Rather, baptism is a condition, just like faith and repentance, that God has placed upon the receiving of His grace.

 

[suzie]

So you can believe in your haert and profess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and still not be saved.?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

From what I read and understand you are saved when you accept Jesus into your heart as your Lord and savior. However after we receive him into our heart what we need to do is to study the word of God and live how the Lord wants us to to the best of our ability. Being Baptised for the remission of our sins is part of what the Lord wants so we shoud do it.

kind of .........HOLY SPIRIT DOES THE BAPTIZING
TITUS 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration[put us in christ] and renewing of the holy spirit.....eph 2:8-9 romans 4:5 rev 20:12-14

1cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not,lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine up to them

blinded what

romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches for his kindness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the kindness of God leadeth thee to repentance.

two type of Christains carnal[fleshly] and spiritual

only time the christian can learn is when they are spiritual
1cor 2:10, gal 5:16-17

Carnal gal 4:29 ...ect

studying the bible ....the Holy Spirit leads you in learning hopefully you have a gift pastor teacher that can give you meat and not milk all the time

 

[Theresa]

If you believe that salvation is only by faith, then how can a baby who can't have faith, and because of it's age, can't be baptised, how can they then be saved? If they can be saved without faith or baptism, then can't others? So then your theology isn't foolproof, right?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Verse Please Or Is That Your Opinion

Eph 1:4

 

[aggie03]

So you can believe in your haert and profess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and still not be saved.?

Mat 7:21 ASV

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

The answer to your question is yes, I do believe that is what the Bible, and therefore, God, teaches.

 

[Garbru]

You are right Basptizm is necessary

 

[Dyrwen]

Ok, read the first page, I'll just say "Thanks" for clearing this up..

I've been baptized. I was under 2 years old when it happened. Never plan on being saved, since I'm an atheist.

 

[Globexgirl]

OKay, I'm just gonna state my opinion because I was born in a non-religious family that never went to church. I still don't go to church other then Youth Group, but I am I die hard believer in Christ, and I have never been baptized. My once Youth Pastor, now friend and brother in Christ once held a meeting about baptism. He said that it did not matter whether we were baptized or not if we didn't believe it. He said baptism is a cleansing, but that there should be a time and a place of baptism. He said baptism for those that were not as a child is like being confirmed for those that were. We must be in the right state of mind, and feel as if God is calling us to be baptized. Now I have worried about it yes, but I still haven't been baptized. I do not believe it's necessary, but I do intend on getting batized at some point. I've just been waiting for the right time, and I was going to at one point, but then I went through a really hard time for a few months after that, and I have only recently gotten straight with God again. I became a Christian, and went through the most difficult time of my life, a time of doubt of depression or anger. And in one more hardship, I brought myself back to Christ, and that was only a few months ago. I still believe there is a time in your life when you should be baptized or confirmed if you have already been baptized, but I don't think it is -necessary- to be saved. Christ is the one and only way, baptism is just another thing on the side. Sort of like church, you -should- go... I don't go to church, it's one of those things I will do, but for now I am happy with going to Youth Group. Thats my church, my Youth group. Well, thats my opinion, I know different denominations have different thoughts on different subjects, and I don't want everyone to go off on their own beliefs and such because thats another thing. Denominations, I don't believe in them. There shouldn't be Denominations, there should just be a Christian Community, brothers and sisters in Christ. Denominations breaks things down too much. Alright, I am going to stop rambling now. I am not going to opologize for stating my opinion but I will say that a lot of everything I read here hurt my feelings, and I just wanted to argue my opinion. Love in Christ, Melissa.