• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

baptism necessary to be saved???

Discussion in 'Questions by Non-Christians (Archived)' started by Galadriel, Jul 8, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    .............water baptism does not save you.................

    Idea came out of my bible when I was younger I will check it out with my strong's and other greek tools...God is a trash collector though if you do not see it that your problem....Romans 3:10-11,23

    that's quite a statement florida college judging my motives.
    ................ARE YOU GOD

    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess[agree] with thy mouth the Lord[deity] Jesus[man] and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 for with the heart[personel] man believeth because of righteousness[romans 4:5]; and with the mouth confession is made unto salavation.

    1 cor 15:2-4 "good news"

    ONCE BELIEF HAPPENS BECAUSE WE ARE SONS [GAL 4:6-7]THE HOLY SPIRIT PUT ME INTO CHRIST [1 COR 12:13]

    IF YOUR GETTING CARNAL BECAUSE DISCUSSING SCRIPTURE PLEASE CONFESS YOUR SIN BECAUSE i AM NOT ........TAKES ALOT MORE THAN THIS DISSCUSSION TO GET MY GOAT..

    i THINK DISCUSSING SCRIPTURE IS FUN EVEN IF WE DISAGREE

    ENJOY THE JOURNEY MY FRIEND

    hEBREWS 12:11 nOW NO CHASTENING FOR THE PRESENT SEEMETH TO BE JOYOUS, BUT GRIEVOUS: NEVERLESS AFTERWARD IT YIELDETH THE PEACEABLE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS UNTO THEM WHICH ARE EXERCISED THEREBY.

    JUST ASKED FOR VERSES TO THOSE COMMANDMENTS SINCE YOU KNOW OF THEM PLEASE DO NOT GET YOUR PANTIES IN A KNOT


    wHAT PROBLEM DO i HAVE THE VERSES GIVE ME YOUR INTERPTATION aND i WILL TELL YOU WHY i DISAGREE ... YOU CAN START FIRST...

    WHEN i DISAGREE i GIVE VERSE AND WHY .......YOU JUST GO OFF
     
  2. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
    Christian
    Married
    I believe the point that Florida College was trying to make is that he wants the discussion to stay on topic. It hasn't been lately, and I will take some of the blame for that. I'm normally very good about trying to make sure that everyone stays on topic with their posts.

    The point that Florida College makes is correct, and he was not questioning anyone's motives. Rather, when we post we need to stay on the topic at hand, water baptism and its necessity in our salvation.

    if we ever hope to get anywhere in our discussions, we must try earnestly and with all sincerity to discuss this topic and avoid side roads that lead to all manner of diverse topics but the one at hand.
     
  3. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    1 cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud and all passed through the sea.[on dry ground] 2 And were all bapized unto moses in the cloud and in the sea;

    once again a baptizm that no water involved but they believed that God would save them and hold up the water by walking the path between both sides of the river .




    and to say that we have to be baptised by water to show that we have given our live to christ though he would like us to it is not a requirement of salvation


    job 15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in His saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in His sight. 16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?


    just another reason why God did all the work for are salavation
    ..............John 6:29................



    Once again I believe that Baptism by the Spirit happens at the same time as belief and since we are sons we are given privelges and inheritance even though we did nothing to earn it. We are his sons to love..........
     
  4. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
    Christian
    Married
    This is a completely different covenant, they were never commanded to be baptized with water for the remission of their sins. We have been. There is not water baptism for the remission of sins in the Old Testament because it was never commanded of them.

    We are not baptized to show anyone anything. We are to be baptized in order that we might receive the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38).

    quote]job 15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in His saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in His sight. 16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water? [/quote]

    Again, we have discussed this before, you are quoting Eliphaz the Temanite. Just because someone says something in the Bible does not mean that they are correct.

    In 1 Samuel 15 king Saul claimed that he utterly destroyed the Amalekites when he really had not. Just because he spoke it didn't make it truth. God has said that Eliphaz the Temanite did not speak correctly concerning him, so his testimony is not correct. This verse that you have quoted does not support what you are trying to say.


    We are told to work the works of God. Our believing is working the work of God. It is something that WE have to do.

    Baptism in water for the remission of sins is also something that we are commanded to do. If we are to be obedient to Him, then this is something that we must do. We cannot be obedient, and we cannot have the remission of sins if we are not baptized in water.
     
  5. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian

    romans 10:9 that if thou shalt confess[agree] with thy mouththe Lord[diety] Jesus[man] and shalt believe in thine heart[personel] that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved 10 For with the heart man believeth because of righteousness[romans4:5]; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


    what water for remission of sins its by the mouth!!!!!!!
     
  6. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
    Christian
    Married
    So are you saying that I don't have to believe? Are you saying that I don't have to repent? Of course not, I know that you aren't. You can't take this verse out of the context of the rest of the Bible a brethren. The Bible has outlined confessing Christ as one of the requirements for our salvation. It is only 1 of the requirements!

    The Bible has also outlined baptism as one. Water baptism for the remission of sins is necessary for our salvation (1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16)
     
  7. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    a lot of people are trying to say that we need to water baptism for remission of sins but according to Romans 10:9-10 say it is by the mouth not water
     
  8. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
    Christian
    Married
    Let's take a look at the text that you are quoting:

    Romans 10:9-10 ASV

    because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: (10) for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    As far as this verse is concerned there is nothing necessary besides confessing with our mouths and believing in our hearts. Is this what you believe, that this is all we have to do for our salvation?

    I should hope not, because this isn't all that the Bible says is necessary for our salvation.

    Luke 13:5 ASV

    I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    The word repent in the previous verse is highlighted in red because it isn't found in the verse that you've listed from Romans. This verse from Luke states explicitly and specifically that unless we repent we will perish. So how do you harmonize Luke 13:5 and Romans 10:9-10? Simple...you consider their sum.

    Psalms 119:160a ASV

    The sum of thy word is truth

    We have to consider the whole counsel of the word of God before we judge what it says. When you only consider one or two verses out of context and apart from the rest of the Bible, you wind up with an incomplete view of salvation. This is what you are doing with that verse from Romans 10.

    Based on the sum of God's word, water baptism for the remission of sins is necessary for our salvation.
     
  9. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    I highlighted confess because it is basical the same word as repent
    your tune every time .....................

    Romans 4:5 But to him that workth not but believeth on him that justified the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    keep ignoring the verses that bother you...........

    titus 3:5 Not by good works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us by the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost

    John 6:29 ......This is the work of God, that ye belief on him whom he hath sent.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace[undeserved ] are ye saved [past and continuely] through faith[heb 11:1] and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God 9 Not of works lest any man should boast.

    not my words But God's in many different verses need more


    nOT ACCORDING TO ROMANS 10:9-10
     
  10. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
    Christian
    Married
    In Romans 10:9-10, confess does not mean the same thing as repent. This is not talking about confessing sins, but about confessing Christ as Lord. We have an example of this in Acts 8 with the Ethiopian Eunuch:

    Acts 8:35-38 ASV

    And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached unto him Jesus. (36) And as they went on the way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch saith, Behold, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? (37) And Philip said, If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (38) And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

    Here we have the example of Philip preaching to the eunuch. What did he preach? He preached Jesus. After this preaching the eunuch understood that he needed to be baptized, which means that baptism is included in the preaching of Jesus, but there was still something keeping him from being baptized: he needed to confess. So the eunuch confesses Christ as the Son of God and is baptized for the remission of his sins, and then he is saved. He has heard the word of God, he believed, He confessed, we know he had to repent because of Luke 13, and he was baptized. Then after all these things he went on his way rejoicing because he was saved.


    Not my tune, friend, but God's. This is what the Bible teaches, so this is what I preach.

    There is something that I think you still don't yet understand. You cannot believe without being obedient. You cannot have the faith that God wants and not be obedient. Here is a verse that illustrates that perfectly. I've used several different version of the Bible so that you can see exactly what I'm talking about:

    John 3:36

    NIV: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him

    NASB: He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

    NLT: And all who believe in God's Son have eternal life. Those who don't obey the Son will never experience eternal life, but the wrath of God remains upon them."

    KJV: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    ESV: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    ASV: He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    YLT: he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'

    Obedience is inclusive in belief :).

    They don't bother me, and yes we have covered them time and time again, you just never seem to like to read how we harmonize them, but rather like to pull them out of context to suit what you like. I'm not being rude, just stating what appears to be obvious to me. ;)
     
  11. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    You and aggie03 have been busy responding to each other. I'm picking up right where you and I left off.

    You say water baptism does not save. Here is what I would like for you to do: type Acts 8: 35-39 for me. Yea, that's right, type the passages - - it won't take very long. So far, you haven't even acknowledged that these verses are in the bible. So if you will type them, then I will know for sure that you at least have looked at them.

    Then you can help me answer the following questions from Acts 8:35-39:
    * What did Philip preach in vs. 35?
    * Fill in the blank in vs. 36 - "See, here is _________. What hinders me from being baptized?"
    * Philip and the eunuch went down into something in vs. 38. What did they go down into?
    * Philip and the eunuch came up out of something in vs. 39. What did they come up out of?

    The idea of using "tampons" instead of "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 did not come out of your bible - - the idea came out of your head!

    I am not God. Is that an issue? The issue is your carnal, flippant, and liberal use of bible terminology. I determined that by your actions, not by examining your heart.

    I am not trying to get your goat. But I would make a suggestion: why not exchange your goat for a sheep - see Matt. 25:31-46?

    You still did not solve the dilemma between Jesus' teaching (commandments) and your understanding (only one commandment). Someone is wrong. Does anyone need 3 guesses to figure out who it is?

    I will give you a hint of one command you're overlooking. Fill in this blank: "Can anyone forbid
    _______, that these should not be baptized . . ." - Acts 10:47. Also, he ______________ them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" - Acts 10:48.

    FC
     
  12. AlexK

    AlexK New Member

    27
    +0
    Those passages in Acts result from the persecution Christians were receiving at the time, not the need for water baptism to save your soul.

    Water baptism was a public display of Christianity. Of course, Peter would say, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water?" Meaning, can anybody who is persecuting us prevent these public declarations?

    To say water baptism is necessary for salvation is heresy. It would mean the criminal on the cross next to Jesus never entered paradise. For to have entered paradise, he would have had to removed himself from the cross to seek water baptism.
     
  13. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
    Christian
    Married
    To Alexk:

    Hello :wave: I'm glad that you have chosen to take part in our discussion! To give you a little info about myself, I believe in the Bible and the Bible alone for determining how, what, when, where and why we ought to do things. It is the sole guide given to us by God so that we might know what is pleasing to Him.

    Can you show me where the Bible states this? :confused:

    Can you show me where the Bible states explicitly and specifically that baptism is nothing more than a public display? :confused:

    I do hope that you realize the weight of your statement. It would mean that by preaching baptism as necessary for our salvation, and believing that, I would be condemned. There is also a flipside to that: if you are wrong, then you're the one in trouble. Because this is very serious, just as you have pointed out, I would invite you to continue studying with us so that we may learn more perfectly what the scriptures teach :).

    The interesting point about the theif on the cross that most people either ignore or don't know is that He was under the Old Covenant, so water baptism for the remission of sins wasn't necessary for him anyway. Alos. when Christ mentioned the word paradise He was referring to a division in a place called Sheol. You can read about this in Luke 16, I believe verses 19-31.
     
  14. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    How does an ungodly man be obiedient???
     
  15. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian




    since you will not answer my question I will give you the verse since you are use statement without backing them up

    The Law of Christ

    John 13:34 A new kind of commandment I give unto you, that ye love[agape/action] one another[gal 6:10]; as I have loved you[romans 5:8], that ye love one another.

    John 14:15 If ye love me [Christ], keep my commandments.

    John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me: and he that loveth of my father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    John 15:9 as the Father glorified, that ye bear much much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples 10 If ye keep my commandments , ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

    John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend.

    1 john 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another

    1 john 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth[mild] his brother, he is liar: for he that loveth[agape] not his brother whom we hath seen, how can he love[agape] God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also.

    Gal 6:2 Bear ye onother burdens, and so fulfill the Law of Christ.


    Do ya love me?
     
  16. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    Once again I believe that God saved me by convince me according to John 16:8-11 that when the Holy Spirit come upon me that I believe ,do to the HOLY Spirit Convincing work. AT this exact same moment The Holy Spirit puts me into Christ [1 cor 12:13, titus 3:5]

    Has any one read this????


    the depravity of man is the reason why God Has to help us in our salvation process Gen 6:5, Gen 8:21, Romans 3:10-11, Romans 4:5

    How does the ungodly have faith[ro 4:5] which is by the Spirit [gal 5:22-23, 1 cor 2:10]
     
  17. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Originally Posted By: Florida College

    Brethren,

    You didn't seem to respond at all to my note. So here it is again. If I didn't have a love and concern for you, I would not labor so diligently to reason with you from the scriptures.

    You and aggie03 have been busy responding to each other. I'm picking up right where you and I left off.

    You say water baptism does not save. Here is what I would like for you to do: type Acts 8: 35-39 for me. Yea, that's right, type the passages - - it won't take very long. So far, you haven't even acknowledged that these verses are in the bible. So if you will type them, then I will know for sure that you at least have looked at them.

    Then you can help me answer the following questions from Acts 8:35-39:
    * What did Philip preach in vs. 35?
    * Fill in the blank in vs. 36 - "See, here is _________. What hinders me from being baptized?"
    * Philip and the eunuch went down into something in vs. 38. What did they go down into?
    * Philip and the eunuch came up out of something in vs. 39. What did they come up out of?

    The idea of using "tampons" instead of "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 did not come out of your bible - - the idea came out of your head!

    I am not God. Is that an issue? The issue is your carnal, flippant, and liberal use of bible terminology. I determined that by your actions, not by examining your heart.

    I am not trying to get your goat. But I would make a suggestion: why not exchange your goat for a sheep - see Matt. 25:31-46?

    You still did not solve the dilemma between Jesus' teaching (commandments) and your understanding (only one commandment). Someone is wrong. Does anyone need 3 guesses to figure out who it is?

    I will give you a hint of one command you're overlooking. Fill in this blank: "Can anyone forbid
    _______, that these should not be baptized . . ." - Acts 10:47. Also, he ______________ them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" - Acts 10:48.

    FC
     
  18. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    Act 8:27 .......and had come to Jersalem for to worship {at the Temple, OT believer}

    Jews have the problem of saying Jesus was God

    Vs 30 Had read OT

    Vs 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was lead as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so open he not his mouth.

    vs 37 .....I believe that Jesus[man] Christ[glorified] is the Son of God.

    Baptism of the HS was not instantanous as We have right now this book is transitional

    Vs 38 water
    vs 39 spirit

    Belief saves just like romans 4:5 but this man is Godly
     
  19. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian

    How did you get inside of me??? this is getting weird
     
  20. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
    Christian
    Married
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...