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baptism necessary to be saved???

Discussion in 'Questions by Non-Christians (Archived)' started by Galadriel, Jul 8, 2003.

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  1. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    believe and making it personel which this fellow did.

    He read how his savior ,in Isaiah in acts 8:32, how to look for his savior and he makes it a personel belief

    the angels were not offered salvation
    they believe because they have been around God

    there is a lot of believer's that get bashful about thought about God not uncomon ..most likely a baby believer not an elder ..

    So when peter denied God three time is he not a believer? or was he an apostle .....................
     
  2. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    Originally Posted By: Florida College

    My quote:
    I am not God. Is that an issue? The issue is your carnal, flippant, and liberal use of bible terminology. I determined that by your actions, not by examining your heart.


    Your response:
    How did you get inside of me??? this is getting weird

    Reply:
    To the best of my knowledge, I'm not inside of you.
    Neither was the apostle Paul inside the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 3:1,3-4 when he charged them with being carnal. He examined their actions; their actions warranted the charge - vs. 4. Likewise, your choice of terms reveals your carnal (fleshly, or worldly) nature.

    Your quote:
    Baptism of the HS was not instantanous as We have right now this book is transitional

    Vs 38 water
    vs 39 spirit

    My reply:
    Your quote "Baptism of the HS was not instantanous as We have right now this book is transitional" leaves me wondering where you came up with this transitional concept. Somehow, either some one has taught you, or you taught yourself, an erroneous view of the book of Acts. The book of Acts is a book of conversions to Christ. It includes a number of gospel sermons. It even tells us how what those that glady received the word did - Acts 2:41. From an objective point of view, it is obvious that you are having trouble accepting what Acts 8:35-39 is clearly pointing out - - that the baptism that was preached was in water. You cannot have Philip and the eunuch going down into the water and coming up out of the the Spirit. Verses 38 & 39 plainly and clearly say that Philip & the eunuch went down into the water and they came up out of the water. That is settled. The only thing left to settle is why you cannot accept what these passages so clearly point out?

    Aggie03 has made some excellent points for you to consider.

    FC
     
  3. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    AlexK,

    Welcome to the discussion emphasizing the importance of salvation.

    Let me give you some background information to consider (from page 18 of our study):

    Consider Matthew 2; Jesus was born in Bethlehem, called out of Egypt, and also called a Nazarene. Which aspect is true? Obviously, they all three are.
    We determine that by harmonizing the scriptures and not making a conclusion before all the scriptures are examined. Is faith alone really all that is necessary for salvation? If so, what about passages that command repentance - Luke 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30, confessing Christ - Matt. 10:32-33, and baptism - Acts 2:38 ;
    Acts 10:48 ; & Acts 22:16. To help you think about these verses, ask yourself this question again,
    "Was Jesus born in Bethlehem, call out of Egypt, or called a Nazarene?" Learning how to harmonize scripture will also help you see through your perceived dilemma between faith and works.

    Concerning baptism: read Romans 6:3-11. Allow your faith to help you understand all that is involved in baptism. Remember the words of Jesus, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" - Mk. 16:16. Now, recall Ananias' words to Saul, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" - Acts 22:16.

    Concerning your post: I have the same question as aggie03 - - Where is your scripture that says that water baptism is a public display of Christianity? I looked pretty hard at the passage you alluded to - -Acts 10:47 and couldn't find it there.

    Your quote:
    "To say water baptism is necessary for salvation is heresy." Really? If so, was Peter a heretic - - note 1 Pet. 3:20-21? Was Philip a heretic in Acts 8:35-39? Was Paul a heretic in Acts 22:16? Was Jesus a heretic in Mk.16:16?

    Please continue to study your bible and grow in the knowledge of God.

    FC
     
  4. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    what action ?
     
  5. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    AlexK,

    Please consider the following information taken from page 18 in a reply to A Brethren IN CHRIST:

    Does the example of the thief on the cross negate the teachings on the necessity of baptism? You obviously think so. I don't. Consider how harmonizing the scriptures works in this case.
    Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Jesus taught that baptism was necessary for salvation - Mk. 16:16.
    When did Jesus' law go into effect? If you don't know the answer, read Hebrews 9: 15-17. According to this passage, Jesus' law (testament, or will) could not go into effect until after he died. Was Jesus dead at the time he granted parton to the thief on the cross? It doesn't appear that he was in Lk. 23:39-43. So the real questions are . . . what law was in effect when the thief was on the cross? . . . and was baptism into Christ required under that law in order to be saved? The only written law in effect at that time was the Law of Moses - - given exclusively to the Jews. Baptism into Christ was not required under the Old Testament. But what about after Jesus' death? What law went into effect then? According to the passage in Hebrews 9: 15-17, then Jesus' law could go into effect. In fact, if you consider that Jesus' testament or law is the same as a will that goes into effect when the one that made it dies, then you could think of Acts 2 as reading the will and stating the terms of the will. What did Peter tell those Jews that believed the sermon in Acts 2 and asked what they should do since they were guilty of putting to death the Christ? Did he tell them that as long as they had faith they would be saved from their sins? No, he told them to "repent and be baptized . . . for the remission of sins." In Acts 2 the message of salvation had been proclaimed, and the terms to the will stated. Now, can you find any examples of salvation without baptism after Jesus' testament went into effect?

    FC
     
  6. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    It's the action that you cannot accept - - being buried in water - - you know, like the eunuch in Acts 8:35-39.

    FC
     
  7. Chuck_Slotter

    Chuck_Slotter New Member

    2
    +0
    I studied the Baptism issue and wanted to respond to it.

    Someone needs to explain to me that if Baptism saves then how did the Ethiopian Eunich receive the spirit before being baptized in Acts 10:41??? Especially when Acts 10:43 says "..that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

    “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). What this verse doesn't say is "whosoever does not get baptised will be condemned" but it does say,"whoever does not believe will be condemned".

    Jesus referred to baptism as a work of righteousness (Matt. 3:15). It is 'not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." (Titus 3:5)-Dr. Norman Geisler points this out and I haven't really heard any one refute it. I've only heard people ignore it.

    If baptism saves then Paul committed blasphemy because the Bible says: ”For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel-not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17).

    This verse teaches that the Gospel saves and it separates Baptism from the gospel.

    Paul here draws a distinction between baptism and the gospel. And since it is the gospel that saves (1 Corinthians 15:1,2), baptism is clearly not necessary to attain salvation-Dr. Norman Geisler, Dr. Ron Rhodes, etc.

    Acts 2:38 may be translated,"Be baptized because of the remission of sins"-Dr. Charles Ryrie Acts 2:38 uses a causual resultant. Do you take an aspirin "for" (to get) a headache? Or do you take an aspirin as a result of a headache?

    Note: the Greek preposition ("eis"-"for") in Acts 2:38 can actually have the meaning "because of" as it does in Matt. 12:41.

    Another point I want to make is I Peter 3:21

    "The like *figure* whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."-I Peter 3:21

    There are two things. (1) It plainly says that Baptism saves as an appeal towards God which is what faith is but it says that Baptism doesn't wash your sins of the flesh away. Do you know why? Baptism is a picture of what has already happened. If you put Baptism in reverse order of salvation then salvation is a work.

    (2) I looked up the word "figure" and it means a representation, counterpart or like figure. Cameras weren't invented in the time of Christ so they didn't have the word "Picture". Pictures don't create salvation. Pictures only capture what has happened. "The like figure" of "Baptism" is a picture and not the cause of salvation.

    Baptism is a picture of what Christ has done for us. The like figure of what baptism represents (Christ's judgment for our sins) is what actually saves us.

    Jude's example to contend for the faith is to remember those who were destroyed by God who believed not and doesn't mention baptism.

    "That they al might be ****** who believed not the truth.." (II Thess. 2:12) talks about belief is a requirement for salvation and not baptism.

    The Bible speaks of the word of God (1 Peter 1:23; James 1:18.21; Romans 10:17) as the instrument used by God in regeneration, not baptism.

    Dr. Gleason Archer points out that works don't save and even if they could, God says that there is none good but God so our works would be evil.-Matthew 19:17. And Rhodes points out that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. The fact that our sins are as filthy rags and that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, there is nothing we can do apart from jesus Christ's finished work on the cross. Since Jesus referred to Baptism as a work of righteousness, I know that it isn't according to works of righteousness that we have done but according to His mercy He has saved us (Titus 3:5)

    And I will interpret the hard to understand verses in the Bible by the clear verses:

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."-John 3:16

    "As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12)

    "...children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." John 1:13

    "Verily, Verily I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, *Hath* everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."John 5:24

    It doesn't say,'might have' or 'could have'.. It says,"*hath*" everlasting life.

    Those are clear verses to me.

    --------------------
    "He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me (Jesus), hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."-John 5:24
     
  8. Galadriel

    Galadriel Lady of Light

    +77
    Christian
    Married
    ^__^

    Thank you for that post there! I tend to agree with you, that it is not baptism that saves. It is hard because both sides seem to have equally good arguments, and if this is dealing with salvation, then it is not something to be taken lightly.

    About just believing on God and Christ, isn't there a verse that says 'even the devil believes' (not exact wording, I am not sure where it is located) but what sets us apart from Satan? We believe, even he believes, but I suppose it is salvation that sets the mere believer apart from the child of God? Because you can believe there is God and Jesus, but not be saved.
     
  9. Galadriel

    Galadriel Lady of Light

    +77
    Christian
    Married
    I'll type out the verses you say:

    ACTS 8:35-39 (NIV Version)

    (35) Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told the good news about Jesus. (36) As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" (38) And he gave orders to stop the charoit. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. (39) When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.
     
  10. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    i answer you ...but I see problem are bibles say diferent things
     
  11. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Chuck Slotter,

    Welcome to our discussion on the necessity of baptism. I couldn’t help but notice that this is your first correspondence on Christianforums. Funny, how you just happened to find this website, and this particular discussion, just when you had all these points about baptism on your mind. Well, let’s get to work . . . shall we?

    Your quote:
    Someone needs to explain to me that if Baptism saves then how did the Ethiopian Eunich [sic – Acts 10 deals with Cornelius and his household, not the Ethiopian “Eunich”] receive the spirit before being baptized in Acts 10:41??? Especially when Acts 10:43 says “. . . that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

    My response:
    1 Peter 3:21 “ . . . even baptism doth also now save us . . .” ( I will comment more on this particular scripture later.) The scripture is clear that baptism does save us. The chronology of events in Acts 10 is that Cornelius, a Gentile, was a devout, God-fearing man - - but outside of Christ vs.1-2. God sends a vision to Cornelius vs.3-6. NOTE: In the vision Cornelius is told to send men to Joppa for Simon. Cornelius sends for Simon vs.7-8. Peter receives a vision vs.9-16. Peter receives the messengers from Cornelius vs. 17-23. Peter comes to Cornelius vs. 24-27. Peter explains why that he, being a Jew, has come to meet with Cornelius, a gentile vs. 28. Cornelius explains his vision vs.29-33. Peter preaches salvation through Jesus . . . realizing that God is now extending the gospel to the Gentiles vs. 34-43. While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles (Cornelius and his household) vs. 44. The Jews were astonished vs. 45. The Gentiles spoke in tongues vs. 46. Peter asks a relevant question, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized . . . vs. 47?” Peter commands them (the Gentiles - - Cornelius and his household) to be baptized vs. 48. I believe that this sequence of events is an accurate assessment of the order of events. Correct? What is left to be determined is what the baptism of the Holy Spirit of Cornelius and his household means. While it is true that Cornelius (and his household) received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water, does that mean that they were saved before baptism in water? It does not? All that it showed was that God was offering salvation to the Gentiles, as well as the Jews. You quoted vs. 43 accurately, “. . . that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” This is the point of our real disagreement: what does it mean to have faith in the Lord? Consider Cornelius’ faith - - he obeyed God - - he sent men to Joppa vs. 5, 7-8; he listened to what he must do vs. 6,33; and he obeyed the command to be baptized vs.48. This is in agreement with Mk. 16:16 and Acts 2:38 (I will comment on both of those passages later also). Cornelius and his household were not saved by faith alone - - in fact, if you closely examine vs. 43, it does not say faith alone.

    Your quote:
    “Whosover believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). What this verse doesn’t say is “whosover does not get baptised will be condemned” but it does say, “whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

    My response:
    Look carefully at what you said. You never addressed what the passage plainly says. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. “And” is a coordinating conjunction that connects two equal parts. If salvation precedes baptism, then salvation also precedes belief. Are you willing to accept that conclusion? Faith is essential – Heb. 11:6. Baptism involves faith – Romans 6:3-11. Baptism alone, without faith, does not result in salvation. Likewise, faith alone, without baptism, does not result in salvation. Jesus said, “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” Both faith and baptism are necessary for salvation. Simple as that!

    Your quote:
    Jesus referred to baptism as a work of righteousness (Matt.3:15). It is “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us.” (Titus 3:5) – Dr. Norman Geisler points this out and I haven’t heard any one refute it. I’ve only heard people ignore it.

    Jesus was referring to his own baptism in Matt. 3:15. Consider: John’s baptism was for repentance and confession of sins vs. 1-6 of Matt. 3. Jesus had no sins to repent of or confess – Heb. 4:15. He was baptized to “fulfill all righteousness” – Matt. 3:15 - - to be a righteous example. Addressing the next point: Titus 3:5 & Eph. 2:8-9 are comparable passages. Salvation is by grace – ***. 2:11. In fact, it is extended to all men. But since all men will not be saved (Matt. 7:21-23), there must be other considerations. We are saved by faith (Eph. 2:8-9, Jn. 3:16, Mk. 16: 16, etc.). NOTE: These passages (and others) say salvation is by faith - - none of them say that we are saved by faith “alone” or by faith “only” - - no, not a single passage! What does it mean to have faith? That is the question? James 2: 14-26 answers the question. It also addresses the issue of “faith only” (vs. 24) while reminding us of the works that justifies a man. The problem with your position with ***. 3:5 is that you use it to say that no works are necessary. James 2:24 plainly says that works are necessary. You simply cannot accept what you think one passage says and ignore other passages. ***. 3:5 & Eph. 2:8-9 are discussing different works than James 2:14-26: human works (or works of human merit) vs. works of obedience - - the former works do not save us, but the latter works are necessary.

    Your quote:
    If baptism saves then Paul committed blasphemy because the Bible says: “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel – not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Cor. 1:17).

    My response:
    Consider 1 Cor. 1:10-17. There were divisions in the church at Corinth. These divisions were based on who taught or baptized the different believers vs. 12-13. Paul did baptize Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas vs. 14,16. Paul is saying that he baptized only a few of the Corinthians, “lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name” vs. 15. “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel . . .” is Paul’s reply to the division at Corinth - - it didn’t matter who baptized them, they were baptized into Christ (carefully consider the anwers Paul is seeking to this questions in vs. 13). Conclusion: Paul was baptized – Acts 22:16. He himself baptized some. And he taught the necessity of baptism – Rom. 6:3-11 & Gal. 3:26-27. Paul neither promoted division, nor blasphemed the salvation of the Lord!

    Your quote:
    This verse [1 Cor. 1:17] teaches that the Gospel saves and separates Baptism from the gospel.

    My response:
    Really? To save time, I’ll just direct you to Acts 8:35-39. Philip preached “Jesus” vs. 35. By necessary inference, it must be concluded that “preaching Jesus” contained teaching about baptism - - note the eunuch’s question in vs. 36 - - he learned of baptism from Philip’s preaching of Jesus! You have drawn the wrong conclusion from the 1 Cor. 1:17. The verse is putting the attention on the Lord, as does vs. 13, downplaying the importance of who did the baptizing.

    Your quote:
    Acts 2:38 may be translated, “Be baptized because of the remission of sins” – Dr. Charles Ryrie Acts 2:38 uses a causal resultant. Do you take aspirin “for” (to get a) headache? Or do you take an aspirin as a result of a headache?

    Note: the Greek preposition (“eis” – “for”) in Acts 2:38 can actually have the meaning of “because of” as it does in Matt. 12:41.

    My response:
    The word “for” in Acts 2:38 is the Greek preposition “eis.” In our modern English language we frequently use the word “for” to mean “because of” I agree with your application of the modern English usage. However, I disagree with the idea that “eis” can mean “because of.” Consider Matt. 26:28 – “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many “for” the remission of sins.” The word “for” is the Greek word “eis.” To make the argument simple, if the remission of sins precedes repentance and baptism in Acts 2:38, then the remission of sins precedes the shedding of Jesus’ blood in Matt. 26:28. That conclusion simply won’t work when you look at Heb. 9:12. In the same way, Rom. 4:5 will present major problems. “. . . His faith is accounted “for” righteousness . . .” Can righteousness precede faith? The Greek word for “because” in Matt. 12:41 is not “eis!” It is “hoti.” Notice how the different Greek word carried a different meaning. Therefore, your conclusion about making "eis" mean "because of" is not valid.

    Your quote:
    Another point I want to make is I Peter 3:21
    “The like *figure* whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the anwer of a good conscience towards God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” – I Pet. 3:21

    There are two things. (1) It plainly says that Baptism saves as an appeal towards God which is what faith is but it says that Baptism doesn’t wash your sins of the flesh away. Do you know why? Baptism is a picture of what has already happened. If you put Baptism in reverse order of salvation then salvation is a work. (2) I looked up the word “figure” and it means a representation, counterpart or like figure. Camera’s weren’t invented in the time of Christ so they didn’t have the word “Picture.” Pictures don’t create salvation. Pictures only capture what has happened. “The like figure” of “Baptism” is a picture and not the cause of salvation.

    My response:
    There is a sense it which baptism plays a part in salvation – “. . . even baptism doth also now save us . . .” That is clear. What is not clear is the fuzzy image you created with your camera. Let’s see if we can get the lens to focus a little better. Here goes. There is a comparison taking place: “eight souls were saved through water ” in vs. 20. In the “like figure” (KJV) baptism saves us. Eight souls being saved by water was a figure of baptism saving us - - that is the comparison! How does baptism save? The text says not by putting away of the filth of the flesh - - not by washing the dirt from the flesh, or the outer man: but by the answer of a good conscience - - by washing the inner man, resulting in a clean conscience!

    Are there any other points that you would like to have answered about baptism?

    If you choose to respond, why don’t we narrow the discussion down to one point at a time?

    FC
     
  12. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Galadriel,

    Thank you for typing Acts 8:35-39. A brethren IN CHRIST just can't seem to bring himself to do it. He is having trouble accepting that the baptism that was preached there is a baptism in water.

    The verse you were looking for is James 2:19 - "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe and tremble." - KJV
    Consider the context of this passage - vs. 14-26. Be sure to note "Ye see then that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" - vs. 24. If faith alone justified, then the devils (demons) would be saved. That is the point of vs. 19. Makes you think, doesn't it?

    FC
     
  13. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;)


    cool verse never got water baptised interesting
     
  14. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian

    we have different tranlations ..............

    Acts 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalm for to worship 28 was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Isaiah, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guideme? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was lead as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his sheerer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgement was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Phillip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speakeththe prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Phillip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they cam unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Phillip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Phillip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Phillip........................
     
  15. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    There are a lot of passages of scripture that don't say a word about water baptism. You have made an excellent observation. What about the verses that do mention it? Those are a little harder to acknowledge, aren't they? Is your courage strong enough to type Acts 8:35-39 yet?

    FC
     
  16. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


    No Baptism interest
     
  17. Florida College

    Florida College Guest

    +0
    Brethren,

    I'm sorry. I was looking at the wrong posting. You did type Acts 8:35-39. Whoopee! Yeaaaaaa! Way to go!!! See, now that wasn't so bad, was it?

    I usually use the NKJV, but also use the KJV. I will occasionally reference a NIV or NAS. How 'bout you? What is your weapon of choice?

    FC
     
  18. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    King James version ............

    If baptism is not nessessary in Romans 9:11 since they have not been born ...why would we as born ones would it be nessessary for salavation?

    Not consistant for Obiedience but not Salavation..
     
  19. RaptureTicketHolder

    RaptureTicketHolder Selectively Agreeable

    488
    +20
    Non-Denom
    Tell me folks, what is said about death bed converstions?

    Will that dying person be in heaven with Christ?
     
  20. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

    +90
    Christian
    Married
    This is a very popular question, in fact it's one that comes up every time that I get involved in a discussion with someone about whether or not baptism for the remission of sins is necessary for our salvation. There are, however, at least four problems problems with the sitation that you have provided.

    The first problem with what you are doing is that you are trying to justify something through a situation that has no application to you whatsoever. Are you on your deathbed? Probably not (can't ever be too sure with modern technology :)). If you're not on your deathbed, then this shouldn't matter at all to you - you should search through the Bible and believe what the Bible says.

    Baptism isn't the only condition of salvation with which we can create hypothetical situations. What about repenting? Let's imagine that there was someone who had heard the gospel, believed in it, confessed Christ as Lord, was baptized for the remission of their sins - but they never repented for any of their sins. Luke 13:3,5 tells us that we have to repent or we can expect to perish. Well, what if just before they died they considered repenting, and were just about to, but they suffered a cerebral anurism and dropped dead on the spot. You see what I mean? We can create almost any situation we want to with hypothetical situations. Luckily for us, the Bible isn't hypothetical.

    The second problem is that when people bring up situations like this they are either assuming that what God has said will change upon the conditions that we find ourselves in, or they want this to be true. I agree with you wholeheartedly that it would be very sad indeed for someone to go through their entire lives denying Christ and the power of God, only to realize at the end when it's too late that they wrong. But I also believe that the Bible is the word of God, unchangable, immutable, unbreakable, enduring and abiding forever.

    The third problem is that people who bring these situations up usually equate belief only with salvation. So this is a story that they believe justifies their stance: someone about to die believes. Well, belief is not the only condition laid out in the Bible. You have to hear, believe, confess, repent and be baptized. If you haven't done all of these things, than according to the Bible you haven't been saved (this is after all what we are discussing). With that being said, there are a lot of people who are alive today who do believe but haven't met all of the conditions for salvation. They are in no different a situation than the hypothetical "deathbed believer" except that they still have an opportunity to do something about it.

    The fouth problem is that you are asking me, or to whomever your post was addressed, to make a decision that I can't possible make. I am not God. I cannot know the judgment of someone's soul because I am not God. When you ask someone this question, you are asking them to supercede their place and take the judgement seat of God. That is impossible. What I can do, however, is tell you and show you what the Scriptures say.
     
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