Baptism and babies

[ArmyMatt]

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” (‭‭Acts‬ ‭2‬‬:‭38-39‬ RSV)

good point

 

[Malleeboy]

Everett Ferguson's book on "Baptism in the Early Church" preforms a very thorough job of review of all Christian writings, architecture and liturgies in the first 5 centuries. His conclusion is that the early church baptized normally by credo-baptism but allowed infant baptism when the infants life was in danger. He list an impressive list of church fathers that we have definitive proof were not infact baptized, even those with very devout parents.

Simple question to you all, who is the first great church member who we have definite proof of an infant baptism? (Polycarp doesn't count as he does not specify when he was baptized, he could have as easily have been a catechized as an infant but baptized later. Everett points out that from his understanding the first person we know was baptized as an infant was Julian.)

 

[Valletta]

Everett Ferguson's book on "Baptism in the Early Church" preforms a very thorough job of review of all Christian writings, architecture and liturgies in the first 5 centuries. His conclusion is that the early church baptized normally by credo-baptism but allowed infant baptism when the infants life was in danger. He list an impressive list of church fathers that we have definitive proof were not infact baptized, even those with very devout parents.

Simple question to you all, who is the first great church member who we have definite proof of an infant baptism? (Polycarp doesn't count as he does not specify when he was baptized, he could have as easily have been a catechized as an infant but baptized later. Everett points out that from his understanding the first person we know was baptized as an infant was Julian.)

Read the Bible, households and families were baptized. As has been brought up in the excellent posts, baptism replaces circumcision and the promise included children.
Luke 18:15–16: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’"

 

[Valletta]

.

 

[Malleeboy]

Read the Bible, households and families were baptized. As has been brought up in the excellent posts, baptism replaces circumcision and the promise included children.
Luke 18:15–16: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’"

NT also says whole household believed as well. NT contrast circumcision and baptism etc...

Citing Ferguson p 626...
Here is a list of people who we now were not infant baptized. Ephraem the Syrian, Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nysa, Gregory of Nazianzus, John Chrysostom, Ambrose, Jerome, Rufinus, Paulinus of Nola, Augustine. We could also add Ambrose's brother Satyrus, Gregory of Nazianzus father Gregory, his sister Gorgonia, brother Caesarius, Jerome's friends Heliodorus and Rufius, Paulinus of Nola's brother and Rufinus of Aquileia. Some of these people above had devout parents, eg Gregory of Nazianzus had bishop for a father.

Can you kindly provide the name of the first known person (with a name) to have an infant baptism (that was not done as a clinical baptism of a dying infant)?

 

[ArmyMatt]

NT also says whole household believed as well. NT contrast circumcision and baptism etc...

Citing Ferguson p 626...
Here is a list of people who we now were not infant baptized. Ephraem the Syrian, Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nysa, Gregory of Nazianzus, John Chrysostom, Ambrose, Jerome, Rufinus, Paulinus of Nola, Augustine. We could also add Ambrose's brother Satyrus, Gregory of Nazianzus father Gregory, his sister Gorgonia, brother Caesarius, Jerome's friends Heliodorus and Rufius, Paulinus of Nola's brother and Rufinus of Aquileia. Some of these people above had devout parents, eg Gregory of Nazianzus had bishop for a father.

Can you kindly provide the name of the first known person (with a name) to have an infant baptism (that was not done as a clinical baptism of a dying infant)?

just curious, how do we know they weren't baptized as infants (aside from the ones who weren't Christians as infants)?

 

[ArmyMatt]

he could have as easily have been a catechized as an infant but baptized later.

and how do you catechize an infant?

 

[All4Christ]

St John Chrysostom certainly supported infant baptism.

You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members. (Baptismal Catecheses)

 

[All4Christ]

In the third century - there was a controversy within Christianity over baptism. There was a movement in the church that, in varying degrees, taught that post-baptismal sins could not be forgiven. Some split sins into mortal and non-mortal - and stated that only non-mortal ones could be forgiven post-baptism, while others said that no sins would be forgiven post-baptism. This movement impacted the timing of when some of the early Church fathers and well-known Christians of the time were baptized later in their lives. Constantine is a well-known example of this, as he was not baptized until his death-bed.

It is worth noting that this was not the modern credo-Baptist position. The Christians of the time strongly believed in the remission of sin and regeneration through baptism. The question wasn’t so much a question of whether one should have faith first before baptism, rather than a question of when baptism is most prudent in the realm of our lives. Tertullian even suggested that young unmarried men should wait until they were married to be baptized since they are likely to lust (a mortal sin)!

With no less reason ought the unmarried also to be delayed until they either marry or are firmly established in continence: until then, temptation lies in wait for them, for virgins because they are ripe for it, and for widows because of their wandering about. All who understand what a burden baptism is will have more fear of obtaining it than of its postponement. (De Baptismo, XVIII)

 

[Malleeboy]

and how do you catechize an infant?

Basil of Caesarea Homilies 13:1 speaks of "catechumen since infancy"
Augustine (Confessions 1:11 and 6:4) is held to have been catechumenized from infancy.
Cyril of Alexandria comments on John 11:26, "When a newborn baby is brought to receive the chrism of the catechumenate or chrism of perfection in holy baptism..."
Pope Siricius (384 - 399) decreed "whoever has vowed himself to the services of the church from infancy must be baptized before the years of puberty and join the ministry of the lectors."

 

[Malleeboy]

In the third century - there was a controversy within Christianity over baptism. There was a movement in the church that, in varying degrees, taught that post-baptismal sins could not be forgiven. Some split sins into mortal and non-mortal - and stated that only non-mortal ones could be forgiven post-baptism, while others said that no sins would be forgiven post-baptism. This movement impacted the timing of when some of the early Church fathers and well-known Christians of the time were baptized later in their lives. Constantine is a well-known example of this, as he was not baptized until his death-bed.

It is worth noting that this was not the modern credo-Baptist position. The Christians of the time strongly believed in the remission of sin and regeneration through baptism. The question wasn’t so much a question of whether one should have faith first before baptism, rather than a question of when baptism is most prudent in the realm of our lives the baptized since they are likely to lust (a mortal sin)!

All4Christ,

I am not a Baptist, but I am a credo-baptist, I believe that baptism is for the remission of sins and regeneration. I think the issues of post baptismal sins is earlier than the 3rd cent, it is the main theme of the Shepherd of Hermas

 

[ArmyMatt]

Basil of Caesarea Homilies 13:1 speaks of "catechumen since infancy"
Augustine (Confessions 1:11 and 6:4) is held to have been catechumenized from infancy.
Cyril of Alexandria comments on John 11:26, "When a newborn baby is brought to receive the chrism of the catechumenate or chrism of perfection in holy baptism..."
Pope Siricius (384 - 399) decreed "whoever has vowed himself to the services of the church from infancy must be baptized before the years of puberty and join the ministry of the lectors."

being a catechumen and being formally catechized are not the same thing.

 

[All4Christ]

All4Christ,

I am not a Baptist, but I am a credo-baptist, I believe that baptism is for the remission of sins and regeneration. I think the issues of post baptismal sins is earlier than the 3rd cent, it is the main theme of the Shepherd of Hermas

I wasn’t referring specifically to Baptists.

It isn’t the same position even for those who believe in the remission and regeneration of sins (at least for all denominations I am aware of). The typical credo-Baptist today does not believe that you are not able to be forgiven for post-baptismal sins, even for the more moderate position of not being forgiven for the deadly sins. Do you believe that?

Yes, the post-baptismal sins came up in the Shepherd of Hermas, but it became much more common in the third century.

 

[Malleeboy]

No one answered the question I posed.

Who is the first great church member who we have definite proof of an infant baptism?

It just strikes me that if Infant baptism was the universal practice of the church from apostolic times than the sheer numbers of credo-baptized people doesn't make sense.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Who is the first great church member who we have definite proof of an infant baptism?

St Polycarp of Smyrna. in his martyrdom he says he served Christ for 86 years, and he died at the age of 86 in the year 155.

 

[Albion]

No one answered the question I posed.

Who is the first great church member who we have definite proof of an infant baptism?

Who is the first great church member to have told the Christian community that there is an age requirement for people seeking to be baptized?

It just strikes me that if Infant baptism was the universal practice of the church from apostolic times than the sheer numbers of credo-baptized people doesn't make sense.

What "sheer numbers" are you referring to? I am unaware of the existence of records from the first century that list the total number of people who were baptized.

 

[TedT]

Yes, that's on the Bible

Wy would GOD bring a person into election, repentance and salvation and then destroy him in hell for dying before he is baptised...especially when HE is in charge of the death of everyone?? The mind boggles at how little people know of GOD and are willing to believe such claptrap because of their ignorance.

Job 14:5 A man’s days are numbered. You know the number of his months. He cannot live longer than the time You have set.

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

 

[buzuxi02]

We are still on this topic.
I already proved Infant baptism is mentioned in the original koine bible. But the protestants intentionally mistranslated it and then their teachers never were able to read Greek after that so it was forgotten.

Not to mention every early bishop (some whom were baptised as adults though born into the faith) have said it's an anomaly to be baptised as an adult if you were already born into a Christian family. St. Cyprian makes clear even infants less than 8 days old could be baptised . Gregory Nazianzen one of those who waited to be baptised says if you want to wait till your child is 3 or 4 years old fine but don't wait too much after that.

Hippolytus describes who is baptised first when children are involved. Polycarp says he was baptized in around 75 ad. as a baby

 

[ArmyMatt]

Polycarp says he was baptized in around 75 ad. as a baby

I think it was earlier, as he would have been 6 in 75 AD. he said he has served Christ 86 years and he was martyred when he was 86.

 

[Lukaris]

I believe the ancient Christian view is that children are largely innocent. There is an ancient letter of observation of Christians to the emperor Hadrian by the philosopher Aristides that testified of it. I had posted in a different sub forum & resurrect it here:

The early Christians seemed to take the innocence of children as a given. An account of the philosopher Aristides ( who later became Christian, St. Aristides) ( 125 A.D.) in his surveillance accounts to the Emperor Hadrian,


And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who has passed through the world without sins. And

The Apology of Aristides the Philosopher

The quote is from chapter 15 but the letter is actually only about 12 printed pages ( some “chapters” are a couple of paragraphs).