Baptism and babies

Justin-H.S.

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Yes, it should be Scriptural, the pattern in the NT is conversion, then baptism. Like the RCC, the Orthodox seem to hold their traditions even with or superior to Scripture. I won't even get into Jesus' siblings........

The pattern in the ENTIRE BIBLE is Birth, then entrance into the covenant by way of circumcision (which was replaced by baptism in the NT). You seem to hold the NT over the OT like a Marcionite, but what I suspect is that you have to elevate the NT for your argument against infant baptism, or else your argument will fail. When St. Paul talked about "scriptures" to the Church, was he talking about his own letters or the OT?
 
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Justin-H.S.

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Does he listen to sermons too? What does slobbering on an icon have to do with being born again?

It gives children a tangible way to humbly live the faith which leads to right belief, IE: Orthodox Praxis; as opposed to insisting that the only way to live the faith is through intellectual belief. My daughter has subconsciously heard many of the scriptures just by living through the liturgical calendar. There's your intellectual belief for children. All of this is included in the Orthopraxis. Our children just grow up in the faith. Our Church isn't a study hall. It's Life Himself.

At the time I was convinced, it may have been part reaction to legalism in my upbringing. Now the church has swung in the opposite problem.

So, it wasn't the infant baptism that caused you to leave the ACNA, it was legalism, and now that you're firmly in the SBC camp infant baptism is a problem for you and you now regret your past life.

What convinced you of Anglicanism in the first place?
 
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East of Eden

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The pattern in the ENTIRE BIBLE is Birth, then entrance into the covenant by way of circumcision (which was replaced by baptism in the NT). You seem to hold the NT over the OT like a Marcionite, but what I suspect is that you have to elevate the NT for your argument against infant baptism, or else your argument will fail. When St. Paul talked about "scriptures" to the Church, was he talking about his own letters or the OT?

He did speak about his own writings being divinely inspired, so yes.
 
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East of Eden

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I would kindly but firmly challenge that last statement about Bible-based preaching. If they do not believe the words of our Lord in John 6 where He stated that one must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, and this was believed from the very beginning (hint: it is not a Roman Catholic invention as the Chick tracts I read used to tell me), then no, they are not Bible-based.

Many of the Church Fathers saw communion as having a symbolic or spiritual meaning.

Did the Early Church Teach Transubstantiation?
 
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East of Eden

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It gives children a tangible way to humbly live the faith which leads to right belief, IE: Orthodox Praxis; as opposed to insisting that the only way to live the faith is through intellectual belief.

I never said intellectual belief was the only way to live the faith, and an infant has no capacity to agree or disagree with any world view. Is this faith through osmosis you describe?

So, it wasn't the infant baptism that caused you to leave the ACNA, it was legalism,

No, legalism in my evangelical upbringing was one factor in my examining the Episcopal Church originally. I grew unhappy with ACNA in part due to it's tolerance of women priests, which IMHO is similar to the acceptance of the gay agenda. In both cases Scripture and tradition is set aside, all in the name of 'fairness'. I also didn't see much outreach to the lost, it seemed somewhat of a WASP social club, although more orthodox than ECUSA.

and now that you're firmly in the SBC camp infant baptism is a problem for you and you now regret your past life.

I was never completely sold on infant baptism, it just didn't make sense to me.

What convinced you of Anglicanism in the first place?

Books like this, https://www.amazon.com/Evangelicals-Canterbury-Trail-Attracted-Liturgical/dp/0819228516

and 'Evangelical is Not Enough'. I knew Prof. Webber when I lived in Wheaton, and probably several hundred students and faculty at Wheaton College were taking the same path, the Anglican CS Lewis was much admired there with the Wade Center and all. So I would say I appreciated incorporating more of the historic church, the liturgy and a more serious view of communion. The ACNA church I attended until a couple years ago closed, and there isn't much of an Anglican presence where I live. The SBC church I'm attending now is close, and as I said has solid preaching, bible studies, and is reaching the lost who for the most part really don't care about the things that attracted me to Anglicanism.
 
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prodromos

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ArmyMatt

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The author appears to be completely ignorant of how "symbol" is understood by the ancients.

he also is ignorant of who is an actual Church Father (Origen and Tertullian are not) and lists St Ignatius of Antioch as fighting the docetists....even though he was martyred long before that heresy enters history.

and he's also ignorant of the distinction that some Fathers make between being spiritual and fleshly.
 
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East of Eden

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Your link does not work, but I urge you to take the time to explore and read the Church fathers for yourself.

And I would say the same for you. Link is working.

"We have already seen how Tertullian clarified his understanding of the Lord’s Table by noting that the bread and the cup were symbols of Christ’s body and blood. In that same vein, we find that many of the church fathers similarly clarified their understanding of the eucharist by describing it in symbolic and spiritual terms.

At times, they echoed the language of Christ (e.g. "This is My body" and "This is My blood") when describing the Lord's Table. Yet, in other places, it becomes clear that they intended this language to be ultimately understood in spiritual and symbolic terms. Here are a number of examples that demonstrate this point:

The Didache, written in the late-first or early-second century, referred to the elements of the Lord’s table as “spiritual food and drink” (The Didache, 9). The long passage detailing the Lord's Table in this early Christian document gives no hint of transubstantiation whatsoever.

Justin Martyr (110–165) spoke of “the bread which our Christ gave us to offer in remembrance of the Body which He assumed for the sake of those who believe in Him, for whom He also suffered, and also to the cup which He taught us to offer in the Eucharist, in commemoration of His blood"(Dialogue with Trypho, 70).

Clement of Alexandria explained that, “The Scripture, accordingly, has named wine the symbol of the sacred blood” (The Instructor, 2.2).

Origen similarly noted, “We have a symbol of gratitude to God in the bread which we call the Eucharist” (Against Celsus, 8.57).

Cyprian (200–258), who sometimes described the eucharist using very literal language, spoke against any who might use mere water for their celebration of the Lord’s Table. In condemning such practices, he explained that the cup of the Lord is a representation of the blood of Christ: “I marvel much whence this practice has arisen, that in some places, contrary to Evangelical and Apostolic discipline, water is offered in the Cup of the Lord, which alone cannot represent the Blood of Christ” (Epistle 63.7).

Eusebius of Caesarea (263–340) espoused a symbolic view in his Proof of the Gospel:

For with the wine which was indeed the symbol of His blood, He cleanses them that are baptized into His death, and believe on His blood, of their old sins, washing them away and purifying their old garments and vesture, so that they, ransomed by the precious blood of the divine spiritual grapes, and with the wine from this vine, "put off the old man with his deeds, and put on the new man which is renewed into knowledge in the image of Him that created him." . . . He gave to His disciples, when He said, "Take, drink; this is my blood that is shed for you for the remission of sins: this do in remembrance of me." And, "His teeth are white as milk," show the brightness and purity of the sacramental food. For again, He gave Himself the symbols of His divine dispensation to His disciples, when He bade them make the likeness of His own Body. For since He no more was to take pleasure in bloody sacrifices, or those ordained by Moses in the slaughter of animals of various kinds, and was to give them bread to use as the symbol of His Body, He taught the purity and brightness of such food by saying, “And his teeth are white as milk” (Demonstratia Evangelica, 8.1.76–80).

Athanasius (296–373) similarly contended that the elements of the Eucharist are to be understood spiritually, not physically: “[W]hat He says is not fleshly but spiritual. For how many would the body suffice for eating, that it should become the food for the whole world? But for this reason He made mention of the ascension of the Son of Man into heaven, in order that He might draw them away from the bodily notion, and that from henceforth they might learn that the aforesaid flesh was heavenly eating from above and spiritual food given by Him.” (Festal Letter, 4.19)

Augustine (354–430), also, clarified that the Lord’s Table was to be understood in spiritual terms: “Understand spiritually what I said; you are not to eat this body which you see; nor to drink that blood which they who will crucify me shall pour forth. . . . Although it is needful that this be visibly celebrated, yet it must be spiritually understood” (Exposition of the Psalms, 99.8).

He also explained the eucharistic elements as symbols. Speaking of Christ, Augustine noted: “He committed and delivered to His disciples the figure [or symbol] of His Body and Blood.” (Exposition of the Psalms, 3.1).

And in another place, quoting the Lord Jesus, Augustine further explained: “‘Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,’ says Christ, ‘and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.’ This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure [or symbol], enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us (On Christian Doctrine, 3.16.24).

A number of similar quotations from the church fathers could be given to make the point that—at least for many of the fathers—the elements of the eucharist were ultimately understood in symbolic or spiritual terms. In other words, they did not hold to the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.

To be sure, they often reiterated the language of Christ when He said, “This is My body” and “This is My blood.” They especially used such language in defending the reality of His incarnation against Gnostic, docetic heretics who denied the reality of Christ's physical body.

At the same time, however, they clarified their understanding of the Lord’s Table by further explaining that they ultimately recognized the elements of the Lord's Table to be symbols—figures which represented and commemorated the physical reality of our Lord’s body and blood."
 
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Valletta

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he also is ignorant of who is an actual Church Father (Origen and Tertullian are not) and lists St Ignatius of Antioch as fighting the docetists....even though he was martyred long before that heresy enters history.

and he's also ignorant of the distinction that some Fathers make between being spiritual and fleshly.
Yes, and just because Jesus has a spiritual aspect does not mean He was not real flesh and blood.
And I would say the same for you. Link is working.
Thanks for fixing the link.
This New Covenant, or New Testament, spoken of by Jeremiah and fulfilled by Jesus at the Last Supper, is not denied by any Church father. As Jesus said, the Holy Eucharist is His true Body and Blood. Is there symbolism and spirituality surrounding Our Lord? Yes. Does that mean Jesus lied to us? No.
 
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East of Eden

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The pattern in the ENTIRE BIBLE is Birth, then entrance into the covenant by way of circumcision (which was replaced by baptism in the NT).

As far as the priestly system, I believe in the priesthood of all believers, and that Jesus Christ was the final high priest/mediator between God and man.

1 Peter 2:9, NIV: "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

From a commentary:

"Peter uses language that had been used to describe God's special relationship with Israel. As Israel was, we—believers, the church—are also a chosen race. Unlike Israel, though, we are not a race in the sense of our family, ethnicity, skin color, or country of origin. We are a spiritual race, in the sense that, in Christ, we share a single spiritual Father. In that same meaning, we are a "holy nation," a specific group of people called out and set apart from all other nations.

Christians, together, are a royal priesthood. In Israel, under the Law, one tribe was given the task of serving as priests, performing the duties of mediators between God and the rest of the nation. Very few held the honor and responsibility of actually coming into God's presence. But in and through Christ, the King, all believers are priests with direct access to our Father. We need no other mediator."
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yes, and just because Jesus has a spiritual aspect does not mean He was not real flesh and blood.

the author of the article had no real idea what he was talking about. to say that St Ignatius was fighting the docestists is dead give away that there was no real thought into this little apology.
 
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Albion

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Many of the Church Fathers saw communion as having a symbolic or spiritual meaning.
So some teach a spiritual presence of Christ in the bread and wine while others see it as purely symbolic. But you haven't taken note of the difference between those two.

In other words, they did not hold to the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.
No. It didn't. However, discounting the Medieval Roman Catholic POV doesn't tell us much about what the early church DID teach and believe.
 
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Not David

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So some teach a spiritual presence of Christ in the bread and wine while others see it as purely symbolic. But you haven't taken note of the difference between those two.



No. It didn't. However, discounting the Medieval Roman Catholic POV doesn't tell us much about what the early church DID teach and believe.
When Evangelicals talk about transubstantiation, it means the bread and wine become the real body and blood.
 
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Albion

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When Evangelicals talk about transubstantiation, it means the bread and wine become the real body and blood.
When anyone talks about transubstantiation, it means that same thing (assuming that they know what the term refers to). ;)
 
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East of Eden

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So some teach a spiritual presence of Christ in the bread and wine while others see it as purely symbolic. But you haven't taken note of the difference between those two.

I see it as a spiritual presence, where God comes to us in a mysterious way, so I guess I'm in between those who see it as purely symbolic and those who say it is the actual body and blood. CS Lewis said the veil between this world and the next is never thinner than during communion. How do you see it?

No. It didn't. However, discounting the Medieval Roman Catholic POV doesn't tell us much about what the early church DID teach and believe.

That's what my link was about.
 
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This New Covenant, or New Testament, spoken of by Jeremiah and fulfilled by Jesus at the Last Supper, is not denied by any Church father. As Jesus said, the Holy Eucharist is His true Body and Blood. Is there symbolism and spirituality surrounding Our Lord? Yes. Does that mean Jesus lied to us? No.

When He called the bread His body, Jesus was physically present with His disciples, His body unbroken. How could He have been offering His broken body to His disciples the night before He died? Jesus often spoke in metaphors, calling Himself the door, the shepherd, the vine, etc. From a commentary:

"The context of the Passover meal is thoroughly symbolic. Almost every element of the meal stood for (or “was”) something else. Jesus took two of those elements and infused them with a new symbolic meaning as He was the fulfillment of everything that Passover stood for. From then on, whenever Jewish believers observed a Passover meal, they would think of the new meaning that Jesus had given to the bread and the final cup. And Gentile believers, who had never been partakers of a Passover meal, would observe the “Lord’s Supper” as part of a “love feast” that the whole church ate together (1 Corinthians 11). Later, the Lord’s Supper (also called communion or the Eucharist) became a separate ceremony all by itself.

Further evidence that Jesus was speaking symbolically is found in John, the only gospel that does not record Jesus’ statement This is my body. In John 6:53–58, Jesus says to a multitude, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

When Jesus spoke of eating His flesh in John 6, He had already given the crowd an indication that He was speaking figuratively. Earlier, in verses 32–35, Jesus had called Himself bread, comparing Himself with the manna in the wilderness: “‘Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.’ ‘Sir,’ they said, ‘always give us this bread.’ Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.’” As if to clear up any misunderstanding, Jesus then distinguishes the physical from the spiritual: “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63, ESV).

When Jesus spoke of His “broken” body at the Last Supper, He was referring to His sacrifice on the cross. His body was broken, and His blood was shed. According to John 6:35, one can “eat” Jesus’ broken body by “coming” to Him and “drink” His blood by believing in Him. Jesus also emphasizes faith (which the eating only symbolizes) in verses 36, 40, and 47."
 
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