Baptism and babies

[Albion]

I see it as a spiritual presence. CS Lewis said the veil between this world and the next is never thinner than during communion. How do you see it?

Basically as you described it there. It's the doctrine of the Real Presence but not Transubstantiation.

 

[Valletta]

When He called the bread His body, Jesus was physically present with His disciples, His body unbroken. How could He have been offering His broken body to His disciples the night before He died? Jesus often spoke in metaphors, calling Himself the door, the shepherd, the vine, etc. From a commentary:

"The context of the Passover meal is thoroughly symbolic. Almost every element of the meal stood for (or “was”) something else. Jesus took two of those elements and infused them with a new symbolic meaning as He was the fulfillment of everything that Passover stood for. From then on, whenever Jewish believers observed a Passover meal, they would think of the new meaning that Jesus had given to the bread and the final cup. And Gentile believers, who had never been partakers of a Passover meal, would observe the “Lord’s Supper” as part of a “love feast” that the whole church ate together (1 Corinthians 11). Later, the Lord’s Supper (also called communion or the Eucharist) became a separate ceremony all by itself.

Further evidence that Jesus was speaking symbolically is found in John, the only gospel that does not record Jesus’ statement This is my body. In John 6:53–58, Jesus says to a multitude, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

When Jesus spoke of eating His flesh in John 6, He had already given the crowd an indication that He was speaking figuratively. Earlier, in verses 32–35, Jesus had called Himself bread, comparing Himself with the manna in the wilderness: “‘Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.’ ‘Sir,’ they said, ‘always give us this bread.’ Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.’” As if to clear up any misunderstanding, Jesus then distinguishes the physical from the spiritual: “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63, ESV).

When Jesus spoke of His “broken” body at the Last Supper, He was referring to His sacrifice on the cross. His body was broken, and His blood was shed. According to John 6:35, one can “eat” Jesus’ broken body by “coming” to Him and “drink” His blood by believing in Him. Jesus also emphasizes faith (which the eating only symbolizes) in verses 36, 40, and 47."

East of Eden, if you are going to copy material from GotQuestions.org or any other website please identify it as a quotation and cite the source.

 

[East of Eden]

East of Eden, if you are going to copy material from GotQuestions.org or any other website please identify it as a quotation and cite the source.

OK, I did not imply that was my writing.

 

[prodromos]

Jesus often spoke in metaphors, calling Himself the door, the shepherd, the vine, etc.

He never took His disciples to a door and say, "I am this door", or show them a particular vine and say, "I am this vine". You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Valletta]

Excellent point. And when Jesus said "I am the door" the people did not say "How can this man be made of wood?"

 

[East of Eden]

He never took His disciples to a door and say, "I am this door", or show them a particular vine and say, "I am this vine". You are comparing apples to oranges.

We disagree.

 

[prodromos]

We disagree.

On what basis?

 

[East of Eden]

On what basis?

That mine was an apples to oranges comparison, on the basis of what I posted.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

That mine was an apples to oranges comparison, on the basis of what I posted.

10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

As far as the priestly system, I believe in the priesthood of all believers, and that Jesus Christ was the final high priest/mediator between God and man.

1 Peter 2:9, NIV: "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

From a commentary:

"Peter uses language that had been used to describe God's special relationship with Israel. As Israel was, we—believers, the church—are also a chosen race. Unlike Israel, though, we are not a race in the sense of our family, ethnicity, skin color, or country of origin. We are a spiritual race, in the sense that, in Christ, we share a single spiritual Father. In that same meaning, we are a "holy nation," a specific group of people called out and set apart from all other nations.

Christians, together, are a royal priesthood. In Israel, under the Law, one tribe was given the task of serving as priests, performing the duties of mediators between God and the rest of the nation. Very few held the honor and responsibility of actually coming into God's presence. But in and through Christ, the King, all believers are priests with direct access to our Father. We need no other mediator."

We're talking about Baptism, not the priesthood. Try to stay on topic. If you want to discuss the priesthood, start another thread.

 

[East of Eden]

We're talking about Baptism, not the priesthood. Try to stay on topic. If you want to discuss the priesthood, start another thread.

Go back and read the thread, someone asked why I left the Anglican church, that was my response.

 

[East of Eden]

10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Don't know what you're trying to say here.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

I never said intellectual belief was the only way to live the faith,

Sure you did. When you implied that only someone who can intellectually ascent to Jesus Christ should be baptized, and since babies are intellectually inept they can't be baptized. See below.

and an infant has no capacity to agree or disagree with any world view.

Exactly, that's why parents raise them up in the faith. That's our job.

Is this faith through osmosis you describe?

Actively living the faith. Osmosis is what Protestants do since they don't actively live the faith like we do: ie. the Holy Mysteries on the reg, liturgical calendars, feasts, fasts, festivals, etc.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Don't know what you're trying to say here.

It's interesting that the door is used by Protestant apologists when trying to argue against the Eucharist, but when you expand the context of the "door" it says right there that it's a figure of speech.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Go back and read the thread, someone asked why I left the Anglican church, that was my response.

You already answered that in a different post.

You were replying to this:
"The pattern in the ENTIRE BIBLE is Birth, then entrance into the covenant by way of circumcision (which was replaced by baptism in the NT)."

 

[East of Eden]

You already answered that in a different post.

You were replying to this:
"The pattern in the ENTIRE BIBLE is Birth, then entrance into the covenant by way of circumcision (which was replaced by baptism in the NT)."

No I didn't, that was responded to in post #244.

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

There was need for a small cleanup.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Justin-H.S.]

No I didn't, that was responded to in post #244.

Both of your posts #244 and #253 were replies to my post #241. It's like you forgot you already replied to me to make a post about the priesthood for some reason. You might've been confused and found yourself replying in the wrong thread?

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Chad infant baptism

 

[Justin-H.S.]

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” (‭‭Acts‬ ‭2‬‬:‭38-39‬ RSV)