• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 25, 2017.

  1. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about - what is the YEV?
     
  2. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    I think I get it - you don't want to change the interpretation of the verse, but you would prefer it if it said what you wanted it to say... mmmmmkaaaaaayyyyyyyy I will leave that with you.
     
  3. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

    +2,536
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    No, I just stated my personal opinion.
    But, the guy I was replying to when I said that, that is what he does.
    If no translations work for him, he just looks for one of the possible alternate meanings of a word to make it fit his doctrine.
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Should read TEV the version at the far right of your post.
     
  5. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    1Cor. 15:22 For just as all people die because of their union with Adam, in the same way all will be raised to life because of their union with Christ.

    So what is your point?
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    From your quote.
    TEV 1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as a people die because of their union with Adam, in the same way all will be raised to life because of their union with Christ
    Are all men in union with Christ? [ my point]
    Further explanation. Some folks believe that 1 Cor 15:22 teaches that "all" men will be saved no matter what. But this version limits those saved to be those who are in union with Christ.
     
  7. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

    +1,133
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Two things:
    1. It became very apparent to me seven years ago that CI was the correct interpretation of scripture and I turned to it from ECT.
    2. Your post is way too long. I agree with your point, but you kind of end debate with that post. It's just a fire hose to the mouth.
     
  8. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

    +2,536
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I believe there are only 2 reasons to spread this doctrine.
    1. Because people can't accept that people will be punished for eternity.
    This is an emotional response. If you look at that book "Hope beyond hell", I think that is the title.
    You will find lots of this stuff, they just don't think it is in keeping with the character of a loving God.

    2. This one is much more sinister. They want people to put off making a decision in this life, and to wait until the next life, thereby condemning them to an eternity of punishment.

    I sincerely hope that these people who preach US are doing so because of reason 1.
    In which case they will have many tears for God to wipe away when they get to the afterlife because of all the people in hell who thought they could wait till the afterlife.

    If people could wait till the next life, they will.
    The Gospel allows for no pride whatsoever and many people would rather contribute to their own salvation rather than accept God's free gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD.
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    There are three passages in the Bible 2 in the OT and 1 in the NT which speak of the dead having some kind of conscious awareness after death.
    In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

    Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
    9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

    10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    [ . . . ]
    22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
    In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
    Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

    .....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

    Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
    18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
    19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
    20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
    21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

    22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
    Eze 32:30-31
    (30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
    (31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
    Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
    Luk 16:22-28
    (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    (23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    Some try to dismiss this a parable but neither Luke nor Jesus introduces it as a parable, it lacks the standard parable opening, e.g. "The kingdom of heaven is like unto,.." and Jesus does not explain it to His disciples later.
    .....In all of the undisputed parables Jesus uses everyday, ordinary things and events to introduce or clarify a Biblical truth. At sometime in history virgins were not prepared for a wedding, a landowner had a dispute with his tenants, a shepherd lost a sheep and found it, a widow lost a coin and found it etc. In Luke 16 what is the ordinary event illustration and what is the Biblical truth? The only events within the experience of Jesus' audience was a rich man living sumptuously and a poor man begging in the street. What is the "like unto the kingdom of heaven" truth this illustrates?
    .....What happens after death was not in the experience of anyone in Jesus' audience therefore do not illustrate any Biblical truth.
    .....The Luke 16 story also differs from a parable in a major way. All of the undisputed parables refer to anonymous people, a certain man, a certain landowner, a certain king. In Luke 16 two names are given Lazarus, Heb. God is my help, At some point in history there could have been a beggar named Lazarus begging at a rich man's gate.
    .....The other name is Abraham, an actual Biblical person. If Abraham was not actually in the place Jesus described and did not actually say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was a liar.
    .....Every early church fathers who quoted or referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.
    Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies Book II
    Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book IV. Chap II 3.
    Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Treatise on the Soul
    Tertullian On Idolatry
    Clement Of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor
    Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
    Archelaus [A.D. 277.] The Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes.
    41.
    Methodius [A.D. 260-312.] From the Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III.
    XIX.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  10. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    Yes they are as with women and children.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Is this in response to my question are all in union with Christ now?
     
  12. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    Yes
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I have found two copies of Origen's Greek Commentary on John, book 13, online. The phrase from John 4:13 "a well of water springing up into everlasting life."/"πηγη υδατος αλλομενου εις ζωην αιωνιον" occurs several times but it is never followed by the words "after eternal life."

    The commentary of Origen on S. John's Gospel
    The Commentary of Origen on S. John's Gospel: The Text Revised with a Critical Introduction and ...
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    That phrase doesn't occur in the relevant context, which is what you need to find in order to find the phrases "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life" according to:

    "(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain
    that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater
    than life.
    (20) When the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain
    of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him."

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32
    By Origen [page 73]

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John

    21. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 18 line 5


    ἡ γενομένη ἐν τῷ πιόντι ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος, οὗ δίδωσιν ὁ Ἰησοῦς,
    πηγὴ ἅλλεται εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον ζωήν. (19) Τάχα δὲ καὶ
    πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν εἰς τὸν ὑπὲρ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν


    22. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 19 line 2


    πηγὴ ἅλλεται εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον ζωήν. (19) Τάχα δὲ καὶ
    πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν εἰς τὸν ὑπὲρ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν
    πατέρα· Χριστὸς γὰρ ἡ ζωή· ὁ δὲ μείζων τοῦ Χριστοῦ,



    23. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 19 line 2


    πηγὴ ἅλλεται εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον ζωήν. (19) Τάχα δὲ καὶ
    πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν εἰς τὸν ὑπὲρ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν
    πατέρα· Χριστὸς γὰρ ἡ ζωή· ὁ δὲ μείζων τοῦ Χριστοῦ,


    21. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 18 line 5


    ~w13x3y18z4
    H( GENOME/NH E)N TW=| PIO/NTI E)K TOU= U(/DATOS, OU(= DI/DWSIN O( *)IHSOU=S,
    PHGH\ A(/LLETAI EI)S TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH/N. ~y
    @8 *TA/XA DE\ KAI\
    PHDH/SEI META\ TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N EI)S TO\N U(PE\R TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N

    22. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 19 line 2


    ~w13x3y18z5
    PHGH\ A(/LLETAI EI)S TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH/N. ~y
    @8 *TA/XA DE\ KAI\
    PHDH/SEI META\ TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N EI)S TO\N U(PE\R TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N
    PATE/RA: *XRISTO\S GA\R H( ZWH/: O( DE\ MEI/ZWN TOU= *XRISTOU=,


    23. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 19 line 2


    ~w13x3y18z5
    PHGH\ A(/LLETAI EI)S TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH/N. ~y
    @8 *TA/XA DE\ KAI\
    PHDH/SEI META\ TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N EI)S TO\N U(PE\R TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N
    PATE/RA: *XRISTO\S GA\R H( ZWH/: O( DE\ MEI/ZWN TOU= *XRISTOU=,

    22. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 19 line 2


    PHGH\ A(/LLETAI EI)S TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH/N. (19) *TA/XA DE\ KAI\
    PHDH/SEI META\ TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N EI)S TO\N U(PE\R TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N
    PATE/RA: *XRISTO\S GA\R H( ZWH/: O( DE\ MEI/ZWN TOU= *XRISTOU=,

    TLG - Home
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    The usual copy/paste argument which does NOT respond to my post and does not address what I said.
    Now read this very carefully. I located and linked to two sites which have Origen's Commentary on John book 13 the same document you are quoting out-of-context.
    .....In your version the words Τάχα δὲ καὶ πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν/"and perhaps after aionion life" immediately follows the quote from John 4:13 "πηγὴ ἅλλεται εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον ζωήν"/a fountain leaping into aionion life."

    .....In the two copies I linked to, the words Τάχα δὲ καὶ πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν/"and perhaps after aionion life" do NOT occur after or anywhere near the quote from John. I did not read the entire document but several sentences on either side of every occurrence of the quote from John. The words are not there.
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private

    Why don't you post portions 18-20 as i did & compare them to the following from Origen's commentary on John:

    "(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain
    that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater
    than life.
    (20) When the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain
    of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him."

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32
    By Origen [page 73]

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Why don't you post portions 18-20 as i did & compare them to the following from Origen's commentary on John:
    "(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain
    that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater
    than life.
    (20) When the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain
    of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him."
    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32
    By Origen [page 73]

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John
    To what end? I have posted those paragraphs several times to show you what the "it" is referring to in para. 19. Once again "it" refers to the "fountain" para. 18. Since an inanimate "fountain" is not living it cannot have "aionion life."
    .... Once again since you have ignored my comment on Origen Commentary on John book 13, which I linked to. The phrase from John 4:14 "πηγη υδατος αλλομενου εις ζωην αιωνιον/pege udatos allomenou eis zoen aionion/"a well of water springing into life aionion" occurs nine times in the book at my link; pg. 247, ln 13, pg. 248, ln 18, pg. 250, ln 29, pg. 251, ln 19, pg. 252 lns 21,33, pg. 253 lns 21, 28, pg. 255, ln 13. But the phrase "Τάχα δὲ καὶ πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν εἰς τὸν ὑπὲρ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν πατέραν"/"taxa de kai pedesei meta ten aionion zoen, eis ton uper ten aionion zoen pateran"/"And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life" does not occur after any of the Jn 4:14 phrases or anywhere in close proximity to the phrases.

    .....According to the two copies of Origen Commentary on John book 13 I linked to Origen never used the phrase "after aionion life."
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    "The Thesaurus Linguae Graecae® (TLG®) is a research program at the University of California, Irvine. Founded in 1972 the TLG has collected and digitized most literary texts written in Greek from Homer to the fall of Byzantium in AD 1453." TLG - Home



    To see what the sites you linked to say in the relevant portions of Origen's commentary on John & how they differ, if at all. Or if they left them out completely. Or if you just can't find them. Or if what you linked to is a defective copy & what i posted from Stanford University site Thesaurus Linguae Graecae® (TLG®)
    is accepted as accurate, since they gave no alternate Greek versions of John's commentary, etc.

    That phrase doesn't occur in the relevant context, which is what you need to find in order to find the phrases "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life" according to:

    "(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain
    that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater
    than life.
    (20) When the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain
    of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him."

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32
    By Origen [page 73]

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John

    "The Thesaurus Linguae Graecae® (TLG®) is a research program at the University of California, Irvine. Founded in 1972 the TLG has collected and digitized most literary texts written in Greek from Homer to the fall of Byzantium in AD 1453." TLG - Home

    The following is the Greek text from Stanford University website Thesaurus Linguae Graecae®:

    21. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 18 line 5


    ἡ γενομένη ἐν τῷ πιόντι ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος, οὗ δίδωσιν ὁ Ἰησοῦς,
    πηγὴ ἅλλεται εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον ζωήν. (19) Τάχα δὲ καὶ
    πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν εἰς τὸν ὑπὲρ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν


    22. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 19 line 2


    πηγὴ ἅλλεται εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον ζωήν. (19) Τάχα δὲ καὶ
    πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν εἰς τὸν ὑπὲρ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν
    πατέρα· Χριστὸς γὰρ ἡ ζωή· ὁ δὲ μείζων τοῦ Χριστοῦ,



    23. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 19 line 2


    πηγὴ ἅλλεται εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον ζωήν. (19) Τάχα δὲ καὶ
    πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν εἰς τὸν ὑπὲρ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν
    πατέρα· Χριστὸς γὰρ ἡ ζωή· ὁ δὲ μείζων τοῦ Χριστοῦ,


    21. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 18 line 5


    ~w13x3y18z4
    H( GENOME/NH E)N TW=| PIO/NTI E)K TOU= U(/DATOS, OU(= DI/DWSIN O( *)IHSOU=S,
    PHGH\ A(/LLETAI EI)S TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH/N. ~y
    @8 *TA/XA DE\ KAI\
    PHDH/SEI META\ TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N EI)S TO\N U(PE\R TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N

    22. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 19 line 2


    ~w13x3y18z5
    PHGH\ A(/LLETAI EI)S TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH/N. ~y
    @8 *TA/XA DE\ KAI\
    PHDH/SEI META\ TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N EI)S TO\N U(PE\R TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N
    PATE/RA: *XRISTO\S GA\R H( ZWH/: O( DE\ MEI/ZWN TOU= *XRISTOU=,


    23. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 19 line 2


    ~w13x3y18z5
    PHGH\ A(/LLETAI EI)S TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH/N. ~y
    @8 *TA/XA DE\ KAI\
    PHDH/SEI META\ TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N EI)S TO\N U(PE\R TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N
    PATE/RA: *XRISTO\S GA\R H( ZWH/: O( DE\ MEI/ZWN TOU= *XRISTOU=,

    22. ORIGENES Theol. Commentarii in evangelium Joannis (lib. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 19-20, 28-32) {2042.005} Book 13 chapter 3 section 19 line 2


    PHGH\ A(/LLETAI EI)S TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH/N. (19) *TA/XA DE\ KAI\
    PHDH/SEI META\ TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N EI)S TO\N U(PE\R TH\N AI)W/NION ZWH\N
    PATE/RA: *XRISTO\S GA\R H( ZWH/: O( DE\ MEI/ZWN TOU= *XRISTOU=,

    TLG - Home
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Irrelevant. This is the typical heterodox ploy. Just say my sources are better than your sources so I win. That ain't the way it works in the real world. Did you notice the adjective "most" in your statement? I provided you a link to a book published by Cambridge University press in 1896. Which just happens to have several pages of manuscript evidence. It will take a ton more counter evidence than "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh." The Cambridge evidence casts doubt on the quotes from TLG. Scholars believe that shorter manuscripts are most likely to be the original.
    How do you know TLG has no alternate Greek evidence? All you quoted was several copies of one verse. OTOH I linked to the complete book 13 with pages of manuscript evidence.
    .....There is no explanatory narrative. The only thing the book has is the original Greek of Origen Commentary on John book 13. If you want to prove me wrong, click on the link download the PDF file to your PC, as I did, and either online or on your PC go through the book and find the relevant quotes. I provided you the page and line numbers.
    .....I said the phrase "Τάχα δὲ καὶ πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν εἰς τὸν ὑπὲρ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν πατέρα·/"perhaps after aionion life it will also leap into the father." does not occur anywhere in close proximity to any of the nine quotes from Jn 4:14 as TLG shows it.
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    "The Thesaurus Linguae Graecae® (TLG®) is a research program at the University of California, Irvine. Founded in 1972 the TLG has collected and digitized most literary texts written in Greek from Homer to the fall of Byzantium in AD 1453." TLG - Home

    To see what the sites you linked to say in the relevant portions of Origen's commentary on John & how they differ, if at all. Or if they left them out completely. Or if you just can't find them. Or if those you linked to is a defective copy & what i posted from Stanford University site Thesaurus Linguae Graecae® (TLG®) are accepted as accurate, since they gave no alternate Greek versions of John's commentary, etc.




    Actually you've provided no evidence & you yourself have referred to the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae:

    "I do not think the KJVT were stupid but they were biased.
    Do I think I am smarter than the KJVT, no but I have available to me with the click of a mouse 300+ years of Bible scholarship, they did not have. Since the KJV was translated, many historical discoveries have been made, such as the DSS and Qumran manuscripts [mss]. Bible scholars today have available many mss. that the KJVT did not have. For example Stanford University has a database Thesaurus Linguae Graecae which contains virtually every Greek manuscript from Homer, 8th century BC, to the 15th century."

    Moved: Holy Ghost & holy spirit

    "The fragment is readily available on the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae cd-rom under Hippolytus, on the universe (around line 80)."

    the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

    After those comments i find it strange that on another occasion your position was that info from TLG did not qualify as "evidence".


    Did you notice your comment:

    "Stanford University has a database Thesaurus Linguae Graecae which contains virtually every Greek manuscript from Homer, 8th century BC, to the 15th century."

    If so then it's over 100 years behind the times & behind TLG.

    You've provided no evidence because you haven't provided a counter or differing copy of the relevant texts in either English, Greek, Latin or any other language:

    "(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain
    that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater
    than life.
    (20) When the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain
    of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him."

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32
    By Origen [page 73]

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John


    What evidence of a differing text of sections 18-20 above have you provided? None. Why not come back when you actually have some "evidence".


    You've provided no evidence of this, either in general or specifically related to Origen's commentary on John. In fact you've provided no evidence that there exists - any - alternate readings of the specific section (18-20, as posted above) of chapter 13 of the commentary.


    I gave you what was on their site. You've provided nothing to the contrary.

    And still no contrary evidence to TLG.

    No need till you provide some evidence.

    Still no evidence of a contrary or differing text than this:

    "(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain
    that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater
    than life.
    (20) When the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain
    of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him."

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32
    By Origen [page 73]

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John

    Let me know when you find a translation that differs from that. Until then i'll assume there is not a one that exists.

    Likewise with the Greek text from TLG i provided.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
Loading...