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Featured Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 25, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, atheists, Sadducees & many other unbeliever types have had no hope in a resurrection. If they knew the Truth of the Scriptures, however, then they would know there is a ressurrection coming & they will be eventually saved.


    Ditto my comment above. There is nothing contrary to universalism in those or any other passage of the Scriptures. Love Omnipotent doesn't contradict Himself or His teachings of universal salvation and the reconciliation of all.

    The link had many Scriptures.

    Bible Threatenings Explained
     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Please show me a verse or verses where "Love Omnipotent", I assume you mean YHWH, the creator, specifically states in scripture that He will reconcile all mankind? I don't mean a group of out-of-context scriptures jammed together which are interpreted as supporting UR.
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What do think of 2 Cor.5:19a:

    19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. (NIV)

    Or how about Rom.11:15:

    For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (KJV)

    Or Col.1:16,20, how do you interpret it:

    16 For by Him all was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile all to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What do think of 2 Cor.5:19a:
    19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them.
    (NIV)

    Or how about Rom.11:15:

    For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (KJV)

    Or Col.1:16,20, how do you interpret it:

    16 For by Him all was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile all to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross
    .
    What's with waiting a month to respond? Perhaps you did not understand my question. Here is my post again.
    Please show me a verse or verses where "Love Omnipotent", I assume you mean YHWH, the creator, specifically states in scripture that He will reconcile all mankind? I don't mean a group of out-of-context scriptures jammed together which are interpreted as supporting UR.
    Re: Corinthians 5:19 and Romans 11:15.
    Matthew 16:26
    (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25
    Can a person literally, actually inherit the entire planet earth?
    Romans 1:8
    (8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    Was the faith of the church at Rome literally, actually spoken of throughout the entire world?
    1 John 5:19
    (19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
    Did the entire world literally, actually lie in wickedness?
    Revelation 12:9
    (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    Did Satan literally, actually deceive the entire world?
    Re: Colossians 1:16 and Colossians 1:20. "in EARTH or in HEAVEN" Says nothing about the dead in the graves.
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I've been on "holidays" so to speak. Did you miss me?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What are you trying to say? Is the world reconciled to God, or not:

    2 Cor.5:19a that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. (NIV)

    Or is that referring to an ongoing reconciliation of the world, until the world is fully reconciled. You'll notice it says "reconciling", not "reconciled".​
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Were not the dead in their graves part of the "ALL" that was created by Him:

    16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    Were not all "invisible" spirit beings "in heaven & on earth" created by Him?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Your proof text still does not say that any who died in their sins were or will be reconciled.
     
  9. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Reconciliation requires both sides to take a part.
    2 Corinthians 5, before it says that God reconciled the world to Himself through Jesus Christ, it says the ministry of reconciliation has been committed to us.
    And after it says we are ambassadors and then we are beseeched to be reconciled.
    We are to bring the Good News that Jesus Christ has reconciled us to God, so we can be His children.
    But if we do not accept what Jesus Christ has done we have no hope.
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What, then, is it saying regarding all being reconciled:

    Were not the dead in their graves part of the "ALL" that was created by Him:

    16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    Were not all "invisible" spirit beings "in heaven & on earth" created by Him?
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What does it mean that "Jesus Christ has reconciled us to God"?

    If "Jesus Christ has reconciled us[the world, all humanity] to God", then it is already done, it is finished. So, why, then, are people "beseeched to be reconciled", if it is already done?

    If there is "no hope" for those who "do not accept what Jesus Christ has done", why does it say God was/is "not counting people's sins against them"?

    2 Cor.5:19a that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. (NIV)

    How can God send anyone to endless tortures or never ending oblivion if He is "not counting people's sins against them"?
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Yes, but there is not one single verse which says that the dead in the grave have been or will be reconciled to God.
    Why do these proof texts not say anything about the dead in the grave?
    Yes but consider,
    Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
    Job 30:24 Howbeit he will not stretch out his hand to the grave, though they cry in his destruction.
    Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
    Psalms 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
    Psalms 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
    Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
    Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then what is this reconciliation of all talking about:

    16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    Were not the dead in their graves part of the "ALL" that was created by Him?


    As in under the earth, as in Phil.2:9-11; Rev.5:13?


    What do these scriptures about the "grave" have to do with invisible "spirit beings"? They don't die or go into graves. I had asked:

    Were not all "invisible" spirit beings "in heaven & on earth" created by Him:

    16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Jerome uses the word rendered eternal in the Bible (aionios) in the sense of limited duration, as that Jerusalem was burnt with aionian fire by Hadrian..."

    Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
    Chapter 19 - The Deterioration of Christian Thought


    "Of Jerusalem, he [Jerome] says on Exekiel 24, that the city was burnt with eternal fire by Hadrian."

    "Christ Triumphant: Universalism Asserted as the Hope of the Gospel on the..." By Thomas Allin [Annotated version, ed. Robin Parry, p.94]: Christ Triumphant

    Jerome is quoted as saying:

    "And after fifty years the city was consumed by eternal fire during the days of Hadrian. 571"

    "571. In Ezekiel, C.24 (PL, t.25 col.228 T)."

    "The Second Jewish Revolt: The Bar Kokhba War, 132-136 CE" By Menahem Mor, Brill, 2016, [p.271] The Second Jewish Revolt
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    While these translations of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:


    The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
    "And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

    Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek Humbly Attempted by Nathaniel Scarlett Assisted by Men of Piety & Literature with notes, 1798:
    "And These will go away into onian punishment: but the righteous into onian life."

    The New Testament by Abner Kneeland, 1823:
    "And these shall go away into aionian punishment*: but the righteous into aionian life."

    The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson, 1884:
    "And these shall go away into onian chastisement, and the just into onian life."

    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    The Holy Bible in Modern English, 1903
    "And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life."

    The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910:
    "And these shall go away into the Punishment 1 of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life 1 of the Ages."
    1. [Of the Ages] Greek "aeonian."

    A Critical Paraphrase of the New Testament by Vincent T. Roth, 1960
    "And these shall go away into age-continuing punishment, but the righteous into life age-continuing."

    The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life."

    The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
    "And these last will go away into onian punishment, but the righteous into onian life."

    The People's New Covenant, 1925
    "And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
    "And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

    The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
    "And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

    The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980
    "Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God's faithful will enter upon their heavenly life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

    Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation:
    "46. "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)."
    ::Jonathan Mitchell's New Testament Translation::

    "....the Old Syriac Version [i.e., the Peshi^to], where the one [i.e., uniform] rendering is still more unmistakably clear: ‘These shall go away to the pain of the olam, and these to the life of the olam’–the world to come.” History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution: The Peshito

    "Of the New Testament, attempts at translation must have been made very early, and among the ancient versions of New Testament Scripture the Syriac in all likelihood is the earliest."
    Syriac Versions of the Bible, by Thomas Nicol

    "The Peshi^to is, as we have said, the earliest version of the New Testament. Its value and authority it is not easy to over-estimate. Westcott says: “Gregory Bar Hebraeus, one of the most learned and accurate of Syrian writers, relates that the New Testament Peshi^to was ‘made in the time of Thaddeus (the apostle), and Abgarus, King of Edessa,’ when, according to the universal opinion of ancient writers, the apostle went to proclaim Christianity in Mesopotamia” (Canon, p. 259). He adds that Gregory assumes the apostolic origin of the New Testament Peshi^ito as certain, and that it preceded all the sects of the Syrian Church, and was received and appealed to by all."

    "How, then, was aionios translated by this version? In support of his own translation Prof. Tayler Lewis says, “So is it ever (translated) in the old Syriac version, where the one rendering is still more unmistakably clear.” “These shall go into the pain of the Olam (the world to come), and these to the life of the Olam (the world to come).” He refers to many other passages, as Matt. xix. 16; Mark x. 17.; Luke xviii. 18; John iii.15: Acts xiii. 46; 1 Tim. vi. 12, in which aionios is rendered belonging to the Olam, the world to come."
    History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution: The Peshito
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <Clem>Then what is this reconciliation of all talking about:
    16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
    Were not the dead in their graves part of the "ALL" that was created by Him?
    As in under the earth, as in Phil.2:9-11; Rev.5:13?
    What do these scriptures about the "grave" have to do with invisible "spirit beings"? They don't die or go into graves. I had asked:
    Were not all "invisible" spirit beings "in heaven & on earth" created by Him:
    16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
    Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?
    <end>
    Does the same argument hold true for the following verses?
    [1] Matthew 16:26
    (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?[[2]Mark 8:36, [3] Luke 9:25]
    [4] Acts 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;
    [5] Acts 19:27 There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited; and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty."
    [6] Romans 1:8
    (8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    [7] 1 John 5:19
    (8) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
    [8] Revelation 12:9
    (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    [9] Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    Can a person literally, actually gain the entire planet earth?
    Was the faith of the Roman church literally, actually spoken of throughout the entire planet earth?
    Did the entire planet earth literally, actually lie in wickedness?
    Did the disciples literally, actually turn the entire planet earth upside down?
    Was the goddess Artemis actually, literally worshipped throughout the entire planet earth?
    Did all the world, i.e. the entire planet earth, literally, actually wonder after the beast?
    Did Satan literally, actually deceive the entire planet earth.
    What is it called when someone uses exaggeration to emphasize a point? E.g. “that person was as big as a house.” I think it is called hyperbole.
    .....Are the people in these verses part of the "all?"

    Psalms 115:17
    (17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence;
    Psalms 6:5
    (5) (6:6) For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in the nether-world who will give Thee thanks?
    Psalms 30:9
    (9) (30:10) 'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise Thee? shall it declare Thy truth?
    Psalms 88:10-12
    (10) (88:11) Wilt Thou work wonders for the dead? Or shall the shades arise and give Thee thanks? Selah
    (11) (88:12) Shall Thy mercy be declared in the grave? or Thy faithfulness in destruction?
    (12) (88:13) Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark? and Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
    Isaiah 38:18
    (18) For the nether-world cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee; they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth.
    Proverbs 24:20
    (20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    (5) For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    Isaiah 26:14
    (14) They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What do any of those out of context verses from other books of the Bible have to do with the contexts of the verses that i posted from the New Testament here:


    Then what is this reconciliation of all talking about:

    16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    Were not the dead in their graves part of the "ALL" that was created by Him?


    As in under the earth, as in Phil.2:9-11; Rev.5:13?


    What do these scriptures about the "grave" have to do with invisible "spirit beings"? They don't die or go into graves. I had asked:

    Were not all "invisible" spirit beings "in heaven & on earth" created by Him:

    16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    None of this addresses these verses, written 100s of years before the NT.
    [1]Psalms 115:17
    (17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence;
    [2]Psalms 6:5
    (5) (6:6) For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in the nether-world who will give Thee thanks?
    [3]Psalms 30:9 'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise Thee? shall it declare Thy truth?
    [4]Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
    [5]Psalms 88:10-12
    (10) (88:11) Wilt Thou work wonders for the dead? Or shall the shades arise and give Thee thanks? Selah
    (11) (88:12) Shall Thy mercy be declared in the grave? or Thy faithfulness in destruction?
    (12) (88:13) Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark? and Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
    [6]Isaiah 38:18
    (18) For the nether-world cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee; they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth.
    [7]Proverbs 24:20
    (20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
    [8]Ecclesiastes 9:5
    (5) For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    [9]Isaiah 26:14
    (14) They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise.. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.
    [10]Psalms 49:17-19
    (17) For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
    (18) Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself.
    (19) He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
    [11]Proverbs 10:28-29
    (28) The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
    (29) The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
    [12]Proverbs 11:7
    (7) When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.
    [13]Job 8:13
    (13) So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish:
    [14]Job 8:20
    (20) Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he [God] help the evil doers:
    [15]Ezekiel 21:31-32
    (31) And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
    (32) Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.


     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Really? That's a verse, like some of the others you posted, often quoted by those who believe in the JW & SDA dogma of soul sleep.

    If that's what you believe, then how do you account for these passages:

    After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” (Revelation 7:9-12)


    Revelation 15:1 And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues—the last, because in them the wrath of God was completed.

    2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those conquering over the beast, and over its image, and over the number of its name, standing upon the sea of glass, having harps of God. 3 And they are singing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

    “Great and wonderful are Your works,

    Lord God the Almighty!

    Righteous and true are Your ways,

    O King of the nations!a

    4 Who should not fear You, O Lord,

    and will glorify Your name?

    For You alone are holy.

    For all the nations will come and will worship before You,

    because Your righteous acts have been revealed.”

    What Revelation Teaches Us About Worship in Heaven
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you have a point in posting these verses? Usually they are posted by those who believe, as JWs & SDAs do, in the dogmas of "soul sleep". Do you believe in the JW or SDA dogmas of "soul sleep"? Compare Revelation 7:9-12; 15:1-4.

    The Psalmist evidently has many questions, but does he have any answers? He also says:

    Psalm 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
    Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations.
    Psalm 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
    Psalm 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed. ALL the ENDS of the world shall turn unto the Lord.
    Psalm 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
    10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
    Psalm 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    Gods mercy endures for ever over ALL HIS WORKS.


    Dead corpses in graves don't praise, celebrate, hope, or do anything but rot.

    Isa.38:18 For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness. 19a The living, only the living, can thank You, as I do today;

    Some commentaries opine: "We have here Hezekiah's thanksgiving...All these gloomy and desponding views arose from the imperfect conception which they had of the future world."
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    Compare:

    After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” (Revelation 7:9-12)

    " a future, i.e. a happy close of life, suggesting sometimes the idea of a posterity, promised to the righteous Proverbs 23:18 ("" תִּקְוָה hope) Proverbs 24:14; Jeremiah 29:11 (וְתִקְוָה ׳לָתֵת לָכֶם א), withheld from the wicked Proverbs 24:20" (BDB lexicon).

    Prov.24:20 For there shall be no REWARD to the evil the candle of the wicked shall be put out (Hebrew-English Interlinear) Proverbs 24 אל Be not תקנא thou envious באנשׁי men, רעה against evil ואל neither תתאו desire להיות to be אתם׃ with

    Not until the evil forsakes his way will he have any reward:

    Isa.55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
    Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
    I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.
    18 “I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
    I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

    Which all the evil shall do (Isa.45:21-25; Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13, etc).

    Prov.24:20 For the posterity of an evil one cannot continue; and the lamp of the wicked shall be extinguished. (CTT, LXX)
    Prov.24: 20 For there is not a posterity to the evil, The lamp of the wicked is extinguished. (YLT)


    Do you have a point in posting these verses? Do you believe in the JW or SDA dogmas of "soul sleep"? Compare Revelation 7:9-12; 15:1-4.


    Notice the past & present tenses there. Nothing about a final destiny in the future. OTOH this does address future destiny:

    Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    The word mistranslated "never" above is Strong's Hebrew word #5331, netsach.

    The Hebrew of Psa.49:19 has "until"[5704] "a goal"[5331]:

    "netsach {nay'-tsakh}; from 5329; properly, a goal...":

    Strongs's #5331: netsach - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools
    Strong's #5331 - נֶצַח - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

    5704: "Short Definition: until":

    Strong's Hebrew: 5704. עַד (ad) -- as far as, even to, up to, until, while

    The LXX Hebrew scholars who translated NETSACH in the Septuagint rendered it AION[165] in the Greek OT, meaning literally an "age" or "eon" (The Apostolic Bible Polygot, Greek-English Interlinear, p,794). This Greek-English interlinear says "unto the eon he shall not see light". BTW, the Greek OT was the Scriptures most often quoted in the NT & used by the early church.

    Here it is translated "permanence":

    Psa.49:19 Yet he shall come unto the generation of his fathers; Unto permanence, they shall not see light. (CLV)

    permanently, "in a way that lasts or remains unchanged indefinitely"

    "the state or quality of lasting or remaining unchanged indefinitely. "the clarity and permanence of the dyes" "

    Here netsach is used of finite duration that had already ended & is translated "perpetually":

    Amos 1:11 Thus, saith Yahweh, Because of three transgressions of Edom, and because of four, will I not turn it back,—Because he pursued, with the sword, his brother, and stifled his compassions, and his anger tare in pieces evermore, and, his indignation, kept watch perpetually[5331]

    "He shall go to the generation of his fathers - To be gathered to one's own people, or to his fathers, is a common expression in the Old Testament in speaking of death. See Genesis 25:8, Genesis 25:17; Genesis 35:29; Genesis 49:29, Genesis 49:33, Numbers 20:24, Numbers 20:26; Numbers 27:13; Numbers 31:2; Deuteronomy 32:50; Judges 2:10. It means that they were united again with those who had gone before them, in the regions of the dead. Death had indeed separated them, but by death they were again united."

    "They shall never see light - He and the "generation" to which he has gone to be united, would no more see the light of this world; no more walk among the living: Job 33:30. Compare the notes at Isaiah 38:11; notes at Psalm 27:13. The meaning is, that the rich sinner will die as others have done before him, leaving all his earthly possessions, and will no more be permitted to revisit the world where his forsaken possessions are, and will not even be permitted to "look" on what before had been to him such a source of self-confidence, self-gratulation, and pride." (Barnes' Notes on the Bible)

    "they shall never see light; neither he nor his fathers; they shall never see light of the sun any more, nor return to the light of the living, but shall lie in the dark and silent grave until the resurrection; " (biblehub)




    What is the hope or "expectation of the wicked"? What is "destruction", a mere physical bodily death which will be followed by resurrection? Or some sort of "ruin" as many versions have it, e.g.:

    Prov.10:29 The way of God is strength to the perfect, And ruin to workers of iniquity.

    Expectation/hope of what? To live to see his great grandchildren? To live a long life?

    "expectation … perish—for death cuts short all his plans" (bibliehub)

    "his expectation shall perish,.... His expectation of a longer life, of getting more riches, attaining to more honour, enjoying more pleasure here,..." (biblehub)

    "His expectation; that which he hoped for and set his heart upon, worldly prosperity, long life, impunity, - all are cut off,..." (biblehub)

    Ditto my previous comment.

    Bildad's opinion. Not "thus sayeth the Lord". OTOH, Jesus says:

    Mt.5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same?

    And a number of other translations differ:

    Job 8:20 Surely God does not reject one who is blameless or strengthen the hands of evildoers.

    This commentary applies the passage to a nation, not individuals: "Shalt be no more remembered.—Ammon should be utterly destroyed, as fuel in the fire; the life-blood of the nation should be poured out, and her name vanish." (biblehub)

    The KJV has the word "more" in italics, indicating it does not exist in the Hebrew. NASB & NET have "You will not be remembered" & "you will no longer be remembered". Which recalls Paul's words to the saints that they would "no longer" or "no more" (Acts 20:25) see his face. Does that lead you to conclude the saints will - never - again see his face, even in the afterlife?

    If anyone was to - never - be remembered any more by anyone, is God going to lobotomize all those in heaven so they can't remember all their lost loved ones, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters & friends? Will God then also lobotomize Himself so He cannot remember any more, either, & thereby lobotomize his omniscience so that it no longer exists forever & ever & ever?

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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