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Featured Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 25, 2017.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Do you mean the way you swallow everything that high priestess Ramelli and Gary Beauchemin writes, such as her misrepresentation of Origen Comm Jn 13.19. And even when the error is pointed out to you, you make excuses why she misrepresented Origen. Musn't criticize the great high priestess.

    You mean the sources you quote which are nothing but anti-mainline Christianity , book selling, filthy lucre bias filled with errors, mistranslations and misrepresentations . Or pro UR Club bias. Or both. Let me know when any of the so-called sources you spam the forum with include in their scribblings references which prove them wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    RC scholar Ramelli interpreted Origen as speaking of "life after aionios life". You said she was wrong, but she was right. You were wrong. As my last post on this subject showed. Are you going to reply to it?

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

    Which shows aionios is of finite duration. Refuting your arguments. And BDAG.

    According to your interpretation Origen speaks of the "fountain" leaping into "the Father" who is "beyond eternal life". What do you suppose the "fountain" in John 4 is? The fountain of "life", perhaps? Hence Ramelli's interpretation of "life after eternal life", eh?

    Origen speak of something else leaping into the "Father who is beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life."

    And, again, after eternal life is a oxymoron. Unless eternal is finite in duration. Which it is.

    Also aionios (mistranslated eternal) life can't be endless in the past here:
    Eternal life (1 Jn.1:2) is aionion life. Aionion is the Greek word that KJV translated "eternal" there.

    Scripture teaches the aionion times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9) & the aions (eons, ages) had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7). Therefore aionion life must have had a beginning. So if you define Christ Himself as aionion life, you are defining Him as having had a beginning. This denies the Trinity and the Deity of Christ. And contradicts your (and my) belief that Christ is God & always was God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit.

    We see here that the "times eonian"(aionion) had a beginning:

    in expectation of life eonian[aioniou], which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian[aionion], (Titus 1:2, CLV)

    before eternal times (Titus 1:2, Greek-English Interlinear, ACVI):
    Online Parallel Study Bibles

    Obviously there cannot be a "before eternal" past time. That would be nonsense. Therefore these "eternal"[aionion/eonian] times must have had a beginning.

    Likewise with 2 Tim.1:9,

    G4253προG5550χρόνωνG166αιωνίων
    .....BEFORE.........TIMES.......AIONION(EONIAN)

    "before times of the ages[aionion]":

    2 Timothy 1:9 Interlinear: who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,

    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian, (2 Tim.1:9, CLV)

    Similarly 1 Cor.2:7 speaks of "before the eons"[aionon], i.e. "before the ages" (NASB).
    And Jude 1:25 says "before all the eons"[aionos], i.e. "before all ages" (NIV).


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    my threads:

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Which post are you talking about?
    BDAG quotes ancient source 100s of years older than Origen so this one reference refutes zero, zilch, nada, NOTHING!

    John 4:14
    (14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
    John did not say the fountain was the "fountain of life". The fountain, one thing, leaps into eternal life, another thing. So Origen did not say the fountain was the "fountain of life" and high priestess Ramelli cannot interpret Origen to be sahying "life
    John did not say the fountain leaped anywhere after it leaped into eternal life! Origen did NOT definitively speak of something else leaping anywhere. What does PERHAPS mean in UR speak?
    Nonsense! Origen did not say "after eternal life." as if there was something "after eternal life." Scripture certainly does not say there is something after eternal life. You and high priestess Ramelli insist on quoting Origen out of context trying desperately to make him support your brand of UR. Here again Origen "in context."

    (18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, [Song 2:8] so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. [John 4:14]
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [it, the fountain, vs. 18] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
    (20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
    In context Origen says "After the fountain leaps into eternal life, perhaps the fountain also leaps into the father." There is no way this passage can be honestly, credibly interpreted as Origen saying there is something "after eternal life" and certainly not "life after eternal life."
    All irrelevant!
    Matthew 16:26
    (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?[Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]
    Romans 1:8
    (8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    Revelation12:9
    (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    Can a person literally, actually gain the entire planet earth? Was the faith of the Roman Christians literally, actually spoken of throughout the entire planet, earth? Did the devil literally, actually deceive the entire planet earth? Or is this a figure of speech? What is the word for when a person emphasizes something by exaggeration?

     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Origen is referring to the passage in John 4 about a fountain (i.e. well) of life (v.14). After speaking of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life", Origen refers back to the same sentence with those phrases by 2 more references to "life" in section 19. The word "For" indicates he is referring back to what he just spoke about in the first half of section 19:

    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.


    If i say "the day after tomorrow perhaps i will go on a cruise ship holiday", is there any doubt that there is a "day after tomorrow" and that "tomorrow" is finite? No. What is in doubt, and the "perhaps" refers to, is what i will do "the day after tomorrow". So Origen spoke, without doubt, that there is in fact an "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life". There is no "perhaps" about those facts.

    And, again, after eternal life is a oxymoron. Unless eternal is finite in duration. Which it is.

    More examples re aion/ios (& olam) being finite:

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

    12 points re forever and ever being finite:
    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    aionios life, 2 UR views, eon/ian ends, millennial eon, 1 Jn.1:2, Chrysoston, Origen, Dan 12 2-3:
    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

    John 3:36, 3:16, 1 Jn.1:2, aionios life:
    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:
    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46





     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  5. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    Why hasn't anyone mentioned ages yet?
    We know there have been "ages" in the past so why can't there be ages in the future? I think most Christians teach the millennium....that is an age which has a start and an end.

    Could it be possible that some will be LOST and some will be SAVED in the next "age" to come, but (get this) have an opportunity to become "saved" for the next age to come? Did that make sense? Are we not striving to be saved into the Kingdom of God for the next age of the millennium?

    If we look at it that way, then the afterlife might make more sense. In this present age of grace, upon death, the righteous go back to God where they came from to begin with. The wicked PERISH and have no part in the next age - the millennial reign of Christ. They are not tortured...they are dead...for that age. I think that is what Aionious means: for the duration of an age. Young's Literal translation reads forever as "age-during".

    So after the thousand years, the age to come, the dead are resurrected which means that "being in Hades forever" suddenly expires and now they live again. This time to be judges for their works. I am sure it will be their motives and intentions that will actually be examined.
    Those whos names were NOT found in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire which will be another "age" of unknown duration even though it is called Aionious. The manguage here suggests that some names WILL be found in the book of life and those will be granted "aioinian life" for the following age. I think there will be numerous "ages" to come, all with fresh revelations of the wonder of God and Christ. I think He will continue His quest for every last sheep as long as it takes.

    This scenario is hard to understand but it makes sense of facts presented on this thread. Instead of proving or disproving anyone wrong, we see that we are all both right and wrong at the same time. It all depends on perspective.



    Bless up friends.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    John 4:14
    (14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
    John did not say the fountain was the "fountain of life". The fountain, one thing, leaps into eternal life, another thing. So Origen did not say the fountain was the "fountain of life" and high priestess Ramelli cannot interpret Origen to be sahying "life
    .....John did not say the fountain leaped anywhere after it leaped into eternal life! Origen did NOT definitively speak of something else leaping anywhere. What does PERHAPS mean in UR speak?
    .....Nonsense! Origen did not say "after eternal life." as if there was something "after eternal life." Scripture certainly does not say there is something after eternal life. You and high priestess Ramelli insist on quoting Origen out of context trying desperately to make him support your brand of UR. Here again Origen "in context."

    (18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, [Song 2:8] so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. [John 4:14]
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [it, the fountain, vs. 18] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
    (20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
    In context Origen says "After the fountain leaps into eternal life, perhaps the fountain also leaps into the father." There is no way this passage can be honestly, credibly interpreted as Origen saying there is something "after eternal life" and certainly not "life after eternal life."
    All irrelevant!

    Matthew 16:26
    (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?[Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]
    Romans 1:8
    (8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    Revelation12:9
    (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    Can a person literally, actually gain the entire planet earth? Was the faith of the Roman Christians literally, actually spoken of throughout the entire planet, earth? Did the devil literally, actually deceive the entire planet earth? Or is this a figure of speech? What is the word for when a person emphasizes something by exaggeration?
    Meaningless words which do not address my question and which do not actually say anything.
    Irrelevant! You aren't Origen. Anybody can concoct an analogy from life which in their minds prove anything they want it to. Perhaps Sasquatch, Yeti and Bigfoot actually exist.. Perhaps the flying spaghetti monster exists.
    And OBTW Origen is not scripture and he can't make up something which is not in scripture. Where is any scripture which says that after eternal life the fountain, in John 1:14, leaps anywhere?
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Irrelevant. Origen's theology is not relevant, but his use of Greek words. Being a native Greek speaker & Greek scholar of NT Koine Greek, he speaks of "after aionios life" and "beyond aionions life":

    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life.

    And, again, after eternal life is a oxymoron. Unless eternal is finite in duration. Which it is.

    More examples re aion/ios (& olam) being finite:

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

    12 points re forever and ever being finite:
    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    aionios life, 2 UR views, eon/ian ends, millennial eon, 1 Jn.1:2, Chrysoston, Origen, Dan 12 2-3:
    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

    John 3:36, 3:16, 1 Jn.1:2, aionios life:
    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:
    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    And still rubbish! You continue to show how deceptive, corrupt and bankrupt UR is! I don't give a hoot about "Origen's use of Greek words" unless he is quoting scripture. So please show me the words, IN scripture, that Origen is talking about when he said
    (18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, [Song f Solomon 2:8] so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. [John 4:14]
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [it, the fountain, vs. 18] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
    (20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
    Most of this is Origen's personal "theology," with a small "t" since it is not found in scripture. I am quite familiar with scripture and I do not know of any verse which speaks about 'after eternal life,""beyond eternal life," or a fountain leaping into anything after it leaps into eternal life.
    Anybody with a middle school grasp of English knows that Origen did NOT say anything is, was or will be "after Eternal life" other than the father. What Origen said when read in context "after the fountain leaps into eternal life PERHAPS it also leaps into the father."
    .....You keep repeating "after eternal life" over and over as if it is some kind of magical mantra. What did Origen say about "after eternal life?" Does Origen say there is, was or will be something for believers "after eternal life?" So unless the words of Origen were canonized as scripture and I didn't hear about it, the words in Origen Comm John 13.19 have no value to believers.
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you apply the same principle to BDAG quoting pagan writers & others not quoting scripture?

    Origen, being a native Greek speaker & Greek scholar of NT Koine Greek, he speaks of "after aionios life" and "beyond aionions life":

    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life.

    And, again, after eternal life is a oxymoron. Unless eternal is finite in duration. Which it is.

    More examples re aion/ios (& olam) being finite:

    http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

    12 points re forever and ever being finite:
    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    aionios life, 2 UR views, eon/ian ends, millennial eon, 1 Jn.1:2, Chrysoston, Origen, Dan 12 2-3:
    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

    John 3:36, 3:16, 1 Jn.1:2, aionios life:
    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:
    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46


    Here's what he wrote:

    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life.

    And, again, after eternal life is a oxymoron. Unless eternal is finite in duration. Which it is.

    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life.

    If i say "the day after tomorrow perhaps i will go on a cruise ship holiday", is there any doubt that there is a "day after tomorrow" and that "tomorrow" is finite? No. What is in doubt, and the "perhaps" refers to, is what i will do "the day after tomorrow". So Origen spoke, without doubt, that there is in fact an "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life". There is no "perhaps" about those facts.

    And, again, after eternal life is a oxymoron. Unless eternal is finite in duration. Which it is.

    More examples re aion/ios (& olam) being finite:

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

    12 points re forever and ever being finite:
    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    aionios life, 2 UR views, eon/ian ends, millennial eon, 1 Jn.1:2, Chrysoston, Origen, Dan 12 2-3:
    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

    John 3:36, 3:16, 1 Jn.1:2, aionios life:
    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:
    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Haven't you quoted a pagan emperor several times? Sound quite hypocritical to me. Have you actually read BDAG and researched the historical references they cite? I think I can say without the slightest fear of contradiction no you have not. The difference is BDAG and other credible scholars cite non-Biblical writings to show how words were used by the native speakers. That is how meaning is determined.
    .....What high priestess Ramelli and you are doing is take 6 words of Origen out-of-context to support a false teaching. Unlike BDAG the quote in question is NOT about the meaning of aion/aionios. There is no scripture which speaks of anything after or beyond eternal life.
    .....If the words, in Origen, "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life" mean what you claim the only conclusion is Origen has interjected pagan ideas into his commentary on John 4. In case you missed it the first few times there is no, zero, none scripture which says "after eternal life and/or "beyond eternal life."

    Irrelevant! It doesn't matter if Origen was a native Greek speaker, or not, when he said "after eternal life" or "beyond eternal life" he was not quoting scripture just stating his opinion. Those are pagan ideas not found in scripture
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Time, or eternity, in the past goes "beyond aionios life". There is scripture that proves there was "before" aionios life, so aionios life is not eternal, at least not in the past:

    Eternal life (1 Jn.1:2) is aionion life. Aionion is the Greek word that KJV translated "eternal" there.

    Scripture teaches the aionion times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9) & the aions (eons, ages) had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7). Therefore aionion life must have had a beginning. So if you define Christ Himself as aionion life, you are defining Him as having had a beginning. This denies the Trinity and the Deity of Christ. And contradicts your (and my) belief that Christ is God & always was God, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit.

    We see here that the "times eonian"(aionion) had a beginning:

    in expectation of life eonian[aioniou], which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian[aionion], (Titus 1:2, CLV)

    before eternal times (Titus 1:2, Greek-English Interlinear, ACVI):
    Online Parallel Study Bibles

    Obviously there cannot be a "before eternal" past time. That would be nonsense. Therefore these "eternal"[aionion/eonian] times must have had a beginning.

    Likewise with 2 Tim.1:9,

    G4253προG5550χρόνωνG166αιωνίων
    .....BEFORE.........TIMES.......AIONION(EONIAN)

    "before times of the ages[aionion]":

    2 Timothy 1:9 Interlinear: who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,

    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian, (2 Tim.1:9, CLV)

    Similarly 1 Cor.2:7 speaks of "before the eons"[aionon], i.e. "before the ages" (NASB).
    And Jude 1:25 says "before all the eons"[aionos], i.e. "before all ages" (NIV).

    The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

    So whatever you think of the "aionios life" in John 1:2, it cannot be eternal in the past and had a beginning.

    In fact there is reason to think it refers to life in the age to come (e.g. the millennial age eon) and/or to the following age of the second death in the new earth. Which lasts until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even in all who were in Adam (v.22).

    Christ is that life of those ages. Believers obtain it. The wicked do not. Yet eventually all shall be saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13, etc).

    N.T. Wright is considered to be a leading NT scholar & his translation renders "life aionios" as "the life of God's coming age" (1 Jn.1:2, NTE). Compare:

    Weymouth New Testament
    the Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness, and we declare unto you the Life of the Ages which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

    Young's Literal Translation
    and the Life was manifested, and we have seen, and do testify, and declare to you the Life, the age-during, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us --

    And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us. (CLV)

    And, the Life, was made manifest, and we have seen, and are bearing witness, and announcing unto you, the Age-abiding Life, which, indeed, was with the Father, and was made manifest unto us; (Ro)

    (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and we bear testimony, and we declare to you the life the age-lasting, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us (Diaglott Greek-English interlinear)

    ...the AIONIAN LIFE...(Diaglott margin)

    and announce to you the life of the Age...(The NT: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

    Indeed the Chayyei [Olam] was manifested, and we have seen it and we give solemn eidus (witness of testimony) and we proclaim to you the Chayyei Olam which was alongside with HaAv [Yochanan 1:1-4,14] and made hisgalus (appearance of, exposure of in revelation) to us [Shlichim]. (OJB)

    Speaking of OLAM, we now turn to Dan.12:2-3, which also supports the above position:

    The context suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

    2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further." (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

    The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

    Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

    καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

    Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

    eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

    εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

    So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

    3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
    and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

    2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
    3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

    2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
    3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
    * for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

    Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

    Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Are they? My previous post showed from Scripture there is "before" aionios life, so it is not eternal, at least not in the past.

    As a native Greek speaker & scholar of NT Koine Greek, the early church father, Origen, knew the meaning of the Greek word aionios. If he had thought it meant only eternal he wouldn't have spoken of it being finite in expressions such as "after aionios life" & "beyond aionios life".

    In Scripture aionios is associated with time (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9). Therefore, if time ends, then all aionios periods referenced in Scripture must end. Including aionios in (Mt.25:46) & both the punishment & life associated with it. Since life & immortality would continue thereafter, there would therefore be an "after aionios life" Origen spoke of. Is there Scriptural evidence for an "after aionios life"? See below, especially points 8-9 of 12 at:

    12 points re forever and ever being finite:
    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You previously said:

    I replied: Do you apply the same principle to BDAG quoting pagan writers & others not quoting scripture?

    Moreover even BDAG cites Origen when not quoting Scripture. Do you say the same about such BDAG references of Origen, that you "don't give a hoot about "Origen's use of Greek words" unless he is quoting scripture"? Since BDAG's opinions are based upon many non scriptural citations you don't give a hoot about, have you trashed your BDAG & sought a refund?

    You've previously indicated you don't check BDAG references. People are told BDAG is the greatest resource & they simply believe that like blind mice blindly following a source they haven't verified for themselves.

    I know enough about BDAG to know other lexicons disagree with it on many points, eminent lexicographer John A. T. Lee has found many faults with it, & it cherry picks references while leaving out many that refer to aionios as finite duration:

    Where do you think the Chrysostom reference came from? Not your precious BDAG. Or quotes from Origen? BDAG left those out too. Why? Or how about other universalist church fathers? BDAG excluded them too. Or how about other references to aionios as finite duration, e.g. Philo, LXX, etc, etc, etc. BDAG left out ALL of the above. Why? There is a pattern here, you see? It's called anti-universalist, book selling, filthy lucre bias. Or pro HellFire Club bias. Or both.

    That includes Origen & many others who don't quote Scripture. But you "don't give a hoot" about them, so why don't you toss your precious BDAG in the trash?

    No, the context reveals Origen spoke of "after aionios life" & "beyond aionios life". As an early church father Universalist, like many other universalists of the time, he obviously didn't believe in aionios punishment as being a torture chamber for all the endless millenniums of eternity. He understood the meaning of Greek words, since he was a native Greek speaker & scholar of NT Koine Greek. These early church Universalists refute BDAG, so BDAG pretends they don't exist & ignores them to sell books & promote the HellFire Boys Club dogma of ECT. At least LSJ & some other Greek scholars are more honest.

    Actually to say "after aionios life" & "beyond aionios life" [along with many other ancient Koine references] tells us what the meaning of aionios was at that time. It was used of finite duration. Likewise with the phrase "aionios life".

    Then why not trash BDAG. The same accusation can be made against its nonbiblical & secular references full of pagan unscriptural ideas.

    Then why not seek a refund on your BDAG which is full of secular & extrabiblical quotes not found in, or supported by, the Bible.

    More examples re aion/ios (& olam) being finite:

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

    12 points re forever and ever being finite:
    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    aionios life, 2 UR views, eon/ian ends, millennial eon, 1 Jn.1:2, Chrysoston, Origen, Dan 12 2-3:
    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

    John 3:36, 3:16, 1 Jn.1:2, aionios life:
    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:
    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The same repetitive, evasive smoke and mirrors over and over. I have explained the difference in how real scholars such as Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich establish the meaning of words and the out-of-context quotes you are arguing about.
    .....I'm not interested in all that other stuff. If you want me to seriously consider the words of Origen then show me somewhere in scripture where the words "after aionion life" or "beyond aionian life" then we can talk. if you cannot show me those words in scripture then we have nothing further to discuss. Unlike BDAG Origen was not researching the use of language for a lexicon. And the suspect statement does not in any way establish a meaning for aion/aionios.
    .....Here is how Paul established the meaning of aionios.

    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore in Paul's usage “aidios” and “aionios” are synonymous. Nothing can refute this.
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Already done. Posts 51 & 52 above.


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  16. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    Hmmmm seems like a bit of trolling going on here.....


    Good question I missed it early - so Doug I went into my my trusty copy of Accordance Bible software and I brought up 1Cor.15:22 in a cross section of translations (I did check the Message but could not bring myself to include it even though it renders it much the same...) and they all pretty much say exactly the same thing, so I am cannot see where you get your assertion from.

    NRSV, KJV for the KJVOnly mob, ESV for our reformed mob, NIV for most of the others, the NASB, and the TEV just for the heck of it....

    1Cor15_22.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  17. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    My point was not to change the way the verse is interpreted. Though I personally prefer it to be translated "any".
    My point wa to show to this is what he does.
    If he doesn't like the way everybody translates a verse, he comes up with one of the possible words and uses that.
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    dupe
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    From your quote.

    YEV 1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as a people die because of their union with Adam, in the same way all will be raised to life because of their union with Christ
    Are all men in union with Christ?
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Posts 51 and 52 omitted. I don't want to see a bunch of muddled UR speculation or copy/pastes from UR high priestess Ramelli what you or they think Origen, or anyone else, really meant. I read English and Greek quite well, I don't need any interpretation. If you cannot show me the the exact words "after aionion life" or "beyond aionion life" actually in scripture then Origen's opinion, and/or anyone else's opinion about the two phrases, are null and void.
     
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