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Featured Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 25, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "This specious argument goes back at least to Augustine. As has long ago been said, however, due to its unreasonableness, it ought never be heard again."

    Augustine was rather ignorant of Greek.

    For some other parallels in Scripture consider:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: 32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    David Burnfield makes an interesting point re Matthew 25:46:

    "None of the sins listed in [the context of] Matt.25:46 can be considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

    He quotes Mt.12:31:

    "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven." (NASB)

    And emphasizes the words "any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people".

    He then says "If we can believe what Christ tells us, then the 'only' sin that is 'not' forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which obviously does not include the sins listed in Matt.25:34-44."

    Then he quotes from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God...":

    "Verse...46, in particular, has always been cited as undeniable proof that Jesus taught eternal punishment. Yet it is clear that the sins Jesus listed in this passage do not constitute the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Assuming Jesus did not utter this word with the intention of contradicting what he said moments before [Matt 12:31], we must accept that the sins mentioned in this passage [Matt 25:46] will eventually be forgiven. This means, however strange it may sound to us, that this statement of Jesus about eternal punishment is not the final word for those who are condemned."

    (pg 220-221, Patristic Universalism: An Alternative To The Traditional View of Divine Judgement, 2nd ed, 2016, by David Burnfield)

    Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

    The NT translation of Eastern Orthodox scholar Bentley Hart does not use the words "eternal" or "everlasting" at Mt.25:46, but instead reads "chastening of that Age" & "life of that Age". (The New Testament: A Translation, 2017, Yale University Press).

    Many other versions do likewise, as listed here:

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    Some literal translations of Mt.25:46 have:

    Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
    Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
    Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
    Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

    eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

    "2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

    "In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

    https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/09/15/from-here-to-eternity-how-long-is-forever/

    The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

    Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

    The fire wasn't eternal & neither is the "eternal fire" or punishment in Mt.25:41,46.

    As regards the fate of the Jewish people, earlier in the same gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    That includes the murderous Pharisees, Judas Iscariot & all other Jews. And since God is no respecter of person, the Gentiles will also be saved, as the Scriptures reveal.

    Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because since if is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Once saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

    From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

    "Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

    "Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

    "In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal."

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Jude 7 speaks of the fire that destroyed Sodom as an example of "aionion fire" (the same words aionion fire used in Mt.25:41, compare v.46). Did Sodom burn forever?

    Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

    "It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct." Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

    In the year 544 A.D. the emperor Justinian wrote a letter:

    "It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine.2 He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that abundant language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration.

    Chapter 21 - Unsuccessful Attempts to Suppress Universalism

    If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

    Early Church Father universalists who were Greek scholars & many others of the time did not see Mt.25:46 contradicting their belief:

    "The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself (an Early Church Father universalist) declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?"

    Another Aionios Thread - These Things Go On Forever

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

    Chapter Nine

    "Walvoord appeals to Matthew 25:46 (“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian,” CV), declaring that if the state of the blessed is eternal, as expressed by this word, there is no logical reason for giving limited duration to punishment."

    "This specious argument goes back at least to Augustine. As has long ago been said, however, due to its unreasonableness, it ought never be heard again. From the fact that the life of the just nations and the chastening of the unjust nations are herein described by the same adjective, descriptive of duration, it does not follow that the latter group of nations, therefore, will be subjected to endless punishment. The argument assumes what is at issue by presuming that the life of the just, here, is termed an endless life. Simply because, on certain grounds, the life of those persons comprising the just nations will prove to be endless, it does not follow that the blessing of life afforded here to any such nations is therefore that of endless duration. It is as unreasonable to assume that eonian life doubtlessly signifies endless life as it would be to claim that youthful life actually signifies aged life, simply because our presuppositions and predilections may dictate such a conclusion."

    "Professor Tayler Lewis (who was not a universalist) in commenting on what he calls the Olamic or Aeonian words of the Scripture, affirms that “they denote . . . the world [i.e., in the sense of duration] in time, or as a time-existence” (i.e., the “life” of the object thus described or delineated). He insists that these words are, in themselves, wholly indefinite (even though he conceives that, in Matthew 25:46, the scene is one of “finality”). Hence, concerning aiõnios, he states: “It would be more in accordance with the plainest etymological usage to give it simply the sense of olamic or aeonic, or to regard it as denoting, like the Jewish olam habba, the world [i.e., duration] to come."

    “ ‘These shall go away into the punishment [the restraint, imprisonment] of the world to come, and these into the life of the world to come.’ That is all we can etymologically or exegetically make of the word in this passage. And so is it ever in the Old Syriac Version [i.e., the Peshito], where the one [i.e., uniform] rendering is still more unmistakably clear: ‘These shall go away to the pain of the olam, and these to the life of the olam’–the world to come.”

    "...It is simply contrary to historical fact to suggest that the essence of these time expressions is that of endless duration. As Thomas De Quincey, the nineteenth century essayist and literary critic states: “All this speculation, first and last, is pure nonsense. Aiõnios does not mean ‘eternal,’ neither does it mean of limited duration . . . . What is an aiõn? The duration or cycle of existence which belongs to any object, not individually of itself, but universally, in right of its genius [i.e., inherent nature] . . . . The exact amount of the duration expressed by an aiõn depends altogether upon the particular subject which yields the aiõn.” "

    "...Likewise, the Presbyterian Bible scholar, M. R. Vincent, in his extensive note on aiõn/aiõnios states: “Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.” "

    "...not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version).

    "In this response to your “deeply troubled” encounter with the Concordant Version, I have principally sought not to prove my position, but to open a door to its consideration; a door of further inquiry, with a view toward your attaining an awareness of the grace of God in truth, even as of the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord (Eph.3:11). May our God and Father be pleased to use this writing unto such an end."

    Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
     
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  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Earlier today when I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica you blew off everything I posted saying they were not inspired. Are these quotes inspired? Seems you want it both ways .

    What makes these "literal?" Do you assume that they are literal because they support your assumptions/presuppositions?
    More uninspired quotes. But have you red this written by Clement?

    Clement second The Homily. Chap. VI.
    Let us reckon39 that it is better to hate the things present, since they are trifling, and transient, and corruptible; and to love those which are to come, as being good and incorruptible. For if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; otherwise, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we disobey His commandments. For thus also saith the Scripture in Ezekiel, “If Noah, Job, and Daniel should rise up, they should not deliver their children in captivity.” (Eze_14:14, Eze_14:20) Now, if men so eminently righteous40 are not able by their righteousness to deliver their children, how can we hope to enter into the royal residence of God unless we keep our baptism holy and undefiled? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found possessed of works of holiness and righteousness?43
    Scripture does not say the fire went out.
    Is this inspired? We can just dismiss it if it is not inpired.
    This more than anything else shows how corrupt the teaching of Universalism is.
    Origen did NOT say anything about "life after eternal life!" This is a quote from someone who is supposed to be a PhD Bible scholar. For her to say this in inexcusable.
    Here is the sentence the Origen citation is from. "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life." Here is the quote in context.

    (17) He says that eternal life is the [goal], as it were, or the water that springs up, as indeed Solomon says, when he talks about the bridegroom in the Song of Songs, [Song of Solomon 2:8] Behold he has come leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
    (18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.[John 4:14]
    (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [i.e. the fountain vs. 18] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
    (20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
    Origen does NOT say there is life after eternal life. He says after the fountain jumps into eternal life perhaps the fountain leaps into God who is beyond eternal life! Here is what Origen says about "eternal life" later in the same writing.
    (6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it. P. 81
    Commentary on the Gospel According to John
    Note eternal life "never perishes,""remains.""is not taken away,""[is not] consumed,"" [does not] perish."

    Irrelevant and meaningless Augustine is not inspired.

    Anything written by a pagan emperor is definitely not inspired so it is irrelevant.

    Not inspired so not relevant.
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your post was quoting Jewish fables from those sources. My post regards Scripture & its interpretation by word meanings & usage, etc, not the ancient horror flicks of Jewish myths.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why? Do you dismiss everything that is not inspired?
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Wrong again, as usual. The sources I quoted regard Scripture & its interpretation by word meanings & usage, etc, not the everyone will be saved, no matter what fantasy.
     
  6. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    That whole argument about the proper usage of the Greek is meaningless.
    Those who are being punished with everlasting destruction are not punished for the various things they didn't do, but because they are "cursed".
    25:41
    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    They didn't do those things because they were cursed.
    Just as the ones who were Blessed of the Father did good things because they were blessed.
    Doing good things does not make us Blessed.
    Doing bad things does not make us cursed.
    The Blessed of the Father are the ones who have accepted Jesus as Savior.
    The cursed are the ones who have rejected Jesus as Savior.
    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
     
  7. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "
    The City of God (Book XXI)
    Please help support the mission of New Advent and get the full contents of this website as an instant download. Includes the Catholic Encyclopedia, Church Fathers, Summa, Bible and more — all for only $19.99...

    Of the end reserved for the city of the devil, namely, the eternal punishment of the damned; and of the arguments which unbelief brings against it.

    Chapter 1.— Of the Order of the Discussion, Which Requires that We First Speak of the Eternal Punishment of the Lost in Company with the Devil, and Then of the Eternal Happiness of the Saints.
    I Propose, with such ability as God may grant me, to discuss in this book more thoroughly the nature of the punishment which shall be assigned to the devil and all his retainers, when the two cities, the one of God, the other of the devil, shall have reached their proper ends through Jesus Christ our Lord, the Judge of quick and dead. And I have adopted this order, and preferred to speak, first of the punishment of the devils, and afterwards of the blessedness of the saints, because the body partakes of either destiny; and it seems to be more incredible that bodies endure in everlasting torments than that they continue to exist without any pain in everlasting felicity. Consequently, when I shall have demonstrated that that punishment ought not to be incredible, this will materially aid me in proving that which is much more credible, viz., the immortality of the bodies of the saints which are delivered from all pain. Neither is this order out of harmony with the divine writings, in which sometimes, indeed, the blessedness of the good is placed first, as in the words, They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment;John 5:29 but sometimes also last, as, The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things which offend, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth, Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of His Father;Matthew 13:41-43 and that, These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.Matthew 25:46 And though we have not room to cite instances, any one who examines the prophets will find that they adopt now the one arrangement and now the other. My own reason for following the latter order I have given.

    Chapter 2.— Whether It is Possible for Bodies to Last for Ever in Burning Fire.
    What, then, can I adduce to convince those who refuse to believe that human bodies, animated and living, can not only survive death, but also last in the torments of everlasting fires? They will not allow us to refer this simply to the power of the Almighty, but demand that we persuade them by some example. If, then, we reply to them, that there are animals which certainly are corruptible, because they are mortal, and which yet live in the midst of flames; and likewise, that in springs of water so hot that no one can put his hand in it with impunity a species of worm is found, which not only lives there, but cannot live elsewhere; they either refuse to believe these facts unless we can show them, or, if we are in circumstances to prove them by ocular demonstration or by adequate testimony, they contend, with the same scepticism, that these facts are not examples of what we seek to prove, inasmuch as these animals do not live for ever, and besides, they live in that blaze of heat without pain, the element of fire being congenial to their nature, and causing it to thrive and not to suffer — just as if it were not more incredible that it should thrive than that it should suffer in such circumstances. It is strange that anything should suffer in fire and yet live, but stranger that it should live in fire and not suffer. If, then, the latter be believed, why not also the former?

    Chapter 3.— Whether Bodily Suffering Necessarily Terminates in the Destruction of the Flesh.
    But, say they, there is no body which can suffer and cannot also die. How do we know this? For who can say with certainty that the devils do not suffer in their bodies, when they own that they are grievously tormented? And if it is replied that there is no earthly body — that is to say, no solid and perceptible body, or, in one word, no flesh — which can suffer and cannot die, is not this to tell us only what men have gathered from experience and their bodily senses? For they indeed have no acquaintance with any flesh but that which is mortal; and this is their whole argument, that what they have had no experience of they judge quite impossible. For we cannot call it reasoning to make pain a presumption of death, while, in fact, it is rather a sign of life. For though it be a question whether that which suffers can continue to live for ever, yet it is certain that everything which suffers pain does live, and that pain can exist only in a living subject. It is necessary, therefore, that he who is pained be living, not necessary that pain kill him; for every pain does not kill even those mortal bodies of ours which are destined to die. And that any pain kills them is caused by the circumstance that the soul is so connected with the body that it succumbs to great pain and withdraws; for the structure of our members and vital parts is so infirm that it cannot bear up against that violence which causes great or extreme agony. But in the life to come this connection of soul and body is of such a kind, that as it is dissolved by no lapse of time, so neither is it burst asunder by any pain. And so, although it be true that in this world there is no flesh which can suffer pain and yet cannot die, yet in the world to come there shall be flesh such as now there is not, as there will also be death such as now there is not. For death will not be abolished, but will be eternal, since the soul will neither be able to enjoy God and live, nor to die and escape the pains of the body. The first death drives the soul from the body against her will: the second death holds the soul in the body against her will. The two have this in common, that the soul suffers against her will what her own body inflicts.

    Our opponents, too, make much of this, that in this world there is no flesh which can suffer pain and cannot die; while they make nothing of the fact that there is something which is greater than the body. For the spirit, whose presence animates and rules the body, can both suffer pain and cannot die. Here then is something which, though it can feel pain, is immortal. And this capacity, which we now see in the spirit of all, shall be hereafter in the bodies of the damned. Moreover, if we attend to the matter a little more closely, we see that what is called bodily pain is rather to be referred to the soul. For it is the soul not the body, which is pained, even when the pain originates with the body — the soul feeling pain at the point where the body is hurt. As then we speak of bodies feeling and living, though the feeling and life of the body are from the soul, so also we speak of bodies being pained, though no pain can be suffered by the body apart from the soul. The soul, then, is pained with the body in that part where something occurs to hurt it; and it is pained alone, though it be in the body, when some invisible cause distresses it, while the body is safe and sound. Even when not associated with the body it is pained; for certainly that rich man was suffering in hell when he cried, I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:24 But as for the body, it suffers no pain when it is soulless; and even when animate it can suffer only by the soul's suffering. If, therefore, we might draw a just presumption from the existence of pain to that of death, and conclude that where pain can be felt death can occur, death would rather be the property of the soul, for to it pain more peculiarly belongs. But, seeing that that which suffers most cannot die, what ground is there for supposing that those bodies, because destined to suffer, are therefore, destined to die? The Platonists indeed maintained that these earthly bodies and dying members gave rise to the fears, desires, griefs, and joys of the soul. Hence, says Virgil (i.e., from these earthly bodies and dying members),

    Hence wild desires and grovelling fears,
    And human laughter, human tears.


    ....


    Chapter 23.— Against Those Who are of Opinion that the Punishment Neither of the Devil Nor of Wicked Men Shall Be Eternal.
    First of all, it behooves us to inquire and to recognize why the Church has not been able to tolerate the idea that promises cleansing or indulgence to the devil even after the most severe and protracted punishment. For so many holy men, imbued with the spirit of the Old and New Testament, did not grudge to angels of any rank or character that they should enjoy the blessedness of the heavenly kingdom after being cleansed by suffering, but rather they perceived that they could not invalidate nor evacuate the divine sentence which the Lord predicted that He would pronounce in the judgment, saying, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41 For here it is evident that the devil and his angels shall burn in everlasting fire. And there is also that declaration in the Apocalypse, The devil their deceiver was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also are the beast and the false prophet. And they shall be tormented day and night forever. Revelation 20:10 In the former passage everlasting is used, in the latter for ever;and by these words Scripture is wont to mean nothing else than endless duration. And therefore no other reason, no reason more obvious and just, can be found for holding it as the fixed and immovable belief of the truest piety, that the devil and his angels shall never return to the justice and life of the saints, than that Scripture, which deceives no man, says that God spared them not, and that they were condemned beforehand by Him, and cast into prisons of darkness in hell, 2 Peter 2:4 being reserved to the judgment of the last day, when eternal fire shall receive them, in which they shall be tormented world without end. And if this be so, how can it be believed that all men, or even some, shall be withdrawn from the endurance of punishment after some time has been spent in it? How can this be believed without enervating our faith in the eternal punishment of the devils? For if all or some of those to whom it shall be said, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, Matthew 25:41 are not to be always in that fire, then what reason is there for believing that the devil and his angels shall always be there? Or is perhaps the sentence of God, which is to be pronounced on wicked men and angels alike, to be true in the case of the angels, false in that of men? Plainly it will be so if the conjectures of men are to weigh more than the word of God. But because this is absurd, they who desire to be rid of eternal punishment ought to abstain from arguing against God, and rather, while yet there is opportunity, obey the divine commands. Then what a fond fancy is it to suppose that eternalpunishment means long continued punishment, while eternal life means life without end, since Christ in the very same passage spoke of both in similar terms in one and the same sentence, These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal! Matthew 25:46 If both destinies are eternal, then we must either understand both as long-continued but at last terminating, or both as endless. For they are correlative — on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end.
    "
    CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book XXI (St. Augustine)
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Some more literal versions read:

    The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

    The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

    Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

    John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

    This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

    It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

    It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

    1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    In chapter 4 he writes:

    39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
    they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

    42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

    John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

    The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

    Ilaria Ramelli, <i>The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena</i> | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

    Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

    AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

    1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf



    Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found.

    16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)
    16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
    16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)
    16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

    Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

    John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

    1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me.


    Context determines the meaning of a word. The same word can have more than one, or even many, meanings in different contexts.

    So, to illustrate, if aionion means "eternal" in one context, it can mean a finite age or ages, epoch, era, millennium, lifetime, 3 days, long time, lasting, etc, in other passages.

    In order to refute universalism you need to prove the word aionion means "eternal" when speaking of punishment. Arguing that it means "eternal" in regards to life proves nothing.

    Universalists mostly agree that aionion sometimes means "eternal" & at others times it doesn't. Call that position A. And the following position B:

    Some universalists, however, argue that in Scripture aionion never means eternal & that it always refers to an age, ages or a period of time that is finite. For more on that view see, for example, points 8 & 9 at posts 130 & 131 at:

    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)


    Which leads us to the passage you refer to, 1 Jn.1:2, & the interpretation of the aforementioned "position B". It says Christ is life aionion, as 1 Jn.1:2 is to be understood. That doesn't mean that is everything Christ is. Christ is much more than that. After the aions end He will still be life, just as He was during the aions. He is both the life eonian and more than life eonian. He is life during the eons and life after the eons. So to say Christ is eonian life does not prove aionion means eternal. In fact, since the aions end, according to Scripture (Heb.9:26; 1 Cor.10:11), the eonian times (Titus 1:2, etc) must also end, as must eonian punishment (Mt.25:46). But since Christ & the saints will have immortality, incorruption, etc, their life will be endless.

    BTW it's impossible for "life eonian" to be endless in the past because the eonian times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25; 2 Tim.1:9). Are you going to argue that Christ had a beginning, too?

    Christ Himself connected eonian life with the eon to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), yet Scripture speaks of multiple eons (ages) to come (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Lk.1:33; Rev. 22:5). So eonian life there can be understood to be restricted to a finite eon.

    "In the Gospels there are instances where the substantive aion and the adjective aionios are juxtaposed or associated in a single image or utterance (most directly in Mark 10:30 and Luke 18:30). This obvious parallel in the Greek is invisible in almost every English tanslation" (p.540, The New Testament: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

    Considering Lk.18:30 above, ECF John Chrysostom limits aionios to a specific age of finite duration:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

    CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

    Also another Early Church Father by the name of Origen spoke of what is "after" and "beyond" aionios life. As a native Greek speaker & scholar he knew the meaning of the word:

    "...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
    And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond
    eternal life." (Comm. in Io 13.3)


    N.T. Wright is considered to be a leading NT scholar & his translation renders "life aionios" as "the life of God's coming age" (1 Jn.1:2, NTE). Compare:

    Weymouth New Testament
    the Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness, and we declare unto you the Life of the Ages which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

    Young's Literal Translation
    and the Life was manifested, and we have seen, and do testify, and declare to you the Life, the age-during, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us --

    And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us. (CLV)

    And, the Life, was made manifest, and we have seen, and are bearing witness, and announcing unto you, the Age-abiding Life, which, indeed, was with the Father, and was made manifest unto us; (Ro)

    (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and we bear testimony, and we declare to you the life the age-lasting, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us (Diaglott Greek-English interlinear)

    ...the AIONIAN LIFE...(Diaglott margin)

    and announce to you the life of the Age...(The NT: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

    Indeed the Chayyei [Olam] was manifested, and we have seen it and we give solemn eidus (witness of testimony) and we proclaim to you the Chayyei Olam which was alongside with HaAv [Yochanan 1:1-4,14] and made hisgalus (appearance of, exposure of in revelation) to us [Shlichim]. (OJB)

    Speaking of OLAM, we now turn to Dan.12:2-3, which also supports the above position:

    The context suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

    2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
    and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
    of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
    (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

    The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

    Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

    καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

    Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

    eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

    εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

    So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

    3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
    and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

    2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
    3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

    2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
    3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
    * for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

    Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

    Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    my threads:

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/for-the-lord-will-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Why do these "literal translations" all have a different meaning for aionios? Question, what makes a version "literal?" Answer, anything that supports the false teaching of UR.
    .....The relevant part of the definition of aionios from BDAG. Unlike the so-called literal versions, which only give the writers opinion, the many scripture and historical references which support the correct definition highlighted in blue.

    αἰώνιος (ία pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.
    [1]
    [1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    How about addressing the entire quotation?
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Such as, for example, what?
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why did BDAG leave out many ancient finite uses of aionios?

    For example:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

    Which shows aionios is of finite duration. Refuting your arguments.

    For more examples, see:

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

    Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

    Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
    9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

    "After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

    Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

    "Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

    -----------------------------------------------


    “I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage, one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught."

    1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    "The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  13. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    The key words in most versions here are they "shall NOT see life".

    It does not say as the Universalist heresy implies that they "shall see life someday".

    Not is says they SHALL NOT SEE LIFE. Shall not means they will not and shall not see it, so why do some say they shall?

    This one verse defeats Universalism in one verse. Like David slew Goliath with one smooth stone.
     
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  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What post?
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This ignores everything i posted & just repeats the same thing you keep posting repeatedly. So you haven't refuted what i posted, if you even understood it.

    Quoting a few words out of context is not the way to the truth, but error. It's like quoting the Bible where it says there is no God.

    All will see life because Paul said:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  17. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Origen's words may or may not be from God.
    So what he has to say may or may not be relevant.
    Whatever he says must be tested by the Spirit to make sure is accurate. And if what he says is contrary to Scripture, it should be disregarded. He is just a man after all.

    Because they knew He was the Savior of the world, they believed, as all must do to be saved.

    Were you deceived by your translation?
    The Greek word for ALL is "pas" and can also be translated "any".
    So the Scripture could read
    As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall any be made alive.
    And the Scripture is clear in other places that not everybody will be saved. Matthew 7:14, 21-24

    This is true, but sometimes it does refer to endlessness.
    So this statement here is in error.
    Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
    Do you mean to say this will be a finite covenant?
    Gen 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.
    Do you mean to say God Himself is finite?
    Deut 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.
    Do you mean to say that God's arms are finite?
    Ps 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
    Do I really need to ask a question here?
    Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
    Are you saying God's purpose in Christ was finite?
    1 Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
    Are you saying the King eternal is finite?
    2 John 1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
    Are you saying the truth will one day stop being with us?

    There are times when it should be translated to mean something finite.
    Haven't you ever heard, "You should never say never"?
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Irrelevant and presumptive. When you have earned a PhD/ThD with the requisite credit hours in Greek then you might have the necessary knowledge and understanding to question Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich the PhD scholars who researched and compiled the BDAG lexicon. They represent about 120-160 years of combined scholarship. Having a Strong's concordance does not a Greek scholar make.
    .....Had you bothered to actually read my post, which you quite evidently did not, you might have known that the authors cited many scripture and manuscript references in support of their translation. I even highlighted all the references, in blue, to assist the reader. And I emphasized all the so-called "literal translations," e.g. Young's, Rotherham etc, do not provide such evidence only their biased opinions.
    .....And OBTW I am still waiting for you to produce the Greek for Origen Commentary on John bk. 13.60 which you claimed was a biased English translation.
     
  19. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,524
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    This verse and others does refute what you post. It doesn't matter if you had 30 pages of word meanings and all your apparent text. If this verse rebukes them, that is strong. But I will give another verse with this one that shows a very similar thing but on the opposite side. All which rebuke strongly the error of universalism, consider again with another verse

    first, this verse

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

    Notice again, they "shall not [future and present tense] see life", and all that awaits them is the wrath of God that will abide [meaning remain, continue in Greek] upon them.

    then this similar verse below in the positive for those who do believe.

    " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."(John 5:24 KJV)

    These two verses say similar to other verses that show both sides. The ones with eternal life and the ones with eternal damnation.

    Here we see that those who believe "hath" (present tense) "eternal (aionios) life. I have already clearly shown that eternal life in this context is Jesus Christ Himself. Not some age life or temporary time life. He is the eternal life and that life any believer has is in HIM.

    But Jesus goes on to say they "shall not come into condemnation". This expression is similar to those who "shall not see life", in the opposite side. The expression "shall not come into condemnation", shows the time frame that they will be in eternal life, there is no end to it. It doesn't say " they shall not come into condemnation for an age or a time period". No it says they shall not (ever) come into condemnation. But the opposite is true for the lost, they "shall not see life" but they shall come into condemnation. It doesn't say "they shall see life eventually" as some universalist imply.

    No two verses can be any clearer here.

    I like these two verses because the word "aionios" is not used for "shall not come into condemnation" here and it is not used in the first verse that says they "shall not see life". This is important because it gets away from all the word twisting and play over "aionios" which means perpeptual never ending in many cases. And again defeats universalism strongly. Though some are so deep in their error that they will not admit it even if it is right in front of them.

    I can and have touched on these two verses in Romans 5. I can do it again another time. They don't say what you imply.
     
  20. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,524
    Christian
    consider again with another verse

    first, this verse

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

    Notice again, they "shall not [future and present tense] see life", and all that awaits them is the wrath of God that will abide[meaning remain, continue in Greek] upon them.

    then this similar verse below in the positive for those who do believe.

    " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."(John 5:24 KJV)

    These two verses say similar to other verses that show both sides.The ones with eternal life and the ones with eternal damnation.

    Here we see that those who believe "hath" (present tense) "eternal (aionios) life. I have already clearly shown that eternal life in this context is Jesus Christ Himself. Not some age life or temporary time life. He is the eternal life and that life any believer has is in HIM.

    But Jesus goes on to say they "shall not come into condemnation". This expression is similar to those who "shall not see life", in the opposite side. The expression "shall not come into condemnation", shows the time frame that they will be in eternal life, there is no end to it. It doesn't say " they shall not come into condemnation for an age or a time period". No it says they shall not (ever) come into condemnation. But the opposite is true for the lost, they "shall not see life" but they shall come into condemnation. It doesn't say "they shall see life eventually" as some universalist imply.

    No two verses can be any clearer here.

    I like these two verses because the word "aionios" is not used for "shall not come into condemnation" here and it is not used in the first verse that says they "shall not see life". This is important because it gets away from all the word twisting and play over "aionios" which means perpeptual never ending in many cases. And again defeats universalism strongly. Though some are so deep in their error that they will not admit it even if it is right in front of them.
     
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