Atheists Overreach ... Why do they do that?

[Tone]

You believe their framework was based on religion?

I am not an atheist but admit that faith and etiquette hold equal sway in my life. But when I didn’t believe my moral compass was wholly influenced by manners and deportment.

Some people have a sense of ethical propriety. I walked a fine line and never transgressed certain principles. I chalk up my perspective to conditioning and a clear understanding of risk and its pitfalls. Call it self-preservation or survival of the fittest. That instinct guided my actions and influenced my behavior.

As you can see it wasn’t one thing. It was a combination of ideals that contributed to the whole.

I edited my post above. I don't know what their framework is...that is what I am asking for. One thing I do know, is that they are influenced by Judeo-Christian thought...among whatever else.


*I think most of what keeps them in check is the fear of consequences. I lacked this.


**But, where do these consequences stem from?

 

[bèlla]

I edited my post above. I don't know what their framework is...that is what I am asking for. One thing I do know, is that they are influenced by Judeo-Christian thought...among whatever else.

I would never tell someone that haphazardly without knowing their background and intimate details about their life. Its generalizing to a measure of impertinence that I wouldn’t cross.

 

[Silmarien]

Yes, but this is not what I'm questioning. I want to understand what exactly is it that atheists base their morals upon...what "framework"? Because, one doesn't have to believe in something (the Bible) to be influenced by it.

It would depend upon the atheist.

It's not particularly difficult to put together a secular version of Aristotelian natural law, and you will find atheists and agnostics who do advocate for this type of virtue ethics. I think this sort of traditional approach is fairly popular amongst non-religious conservatives.

I have more concerns about the viability of a genuinely humanistic ethics, though. You can probably get to a more lukewarm sort of utilitarianism, but I haven't found a way to really justify the types of moral truths you'd need assert to make for a truly progressive ethics.

 

[Tone]

I would never tell someone that haphazardly without knowing their background and intimate details about their life. Its generalizing to a measure of impertinence that I wouldn’t cross.

Sorry, I edited my post again. You would never tell someone what...that they are influenced by Judeo-Christian thought? Do you really believe that there is any atheist on this planet who isn't?

 

[Tone]

It would depend upon the atheist.

It's not particularly difficult to put together a secular version of Aristotelian natural law, and you will find atheists and agnostics who do advocate for this type of virtue ethics. I think this sort of traditional approach is fairly popular amongst non-religious conservatives.

I have more concerns about the viability of a genuinely humanistic ethics, though. You can probably get to a more lukewarm sort of utilitarianism, but I haven't found a way to really justify the types of moral truths you'd need assert to make for a truly progressive ethics.

But, do you believe that these philosophies were left historically untouched by Christianity?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Deal with the content of Smith's book, or at least comment on what your friend Shermer has to say, OR get off my thread. These acts of dalliance you do where you just show up and try to turn the thesis back upon the head of your interlocutor with polemics and without actually engaging the content needs to stop.

Let's start with the whole "read the book then get back to me" notion. This is a discussion forum...not a book club. If you want to discuss a book...start a book club.

As for "my friend Shermer"....never heard of the guy before this thread. I get that he's made some bad arguments that you feel are easy to attack....but that doesn't have anything to do with atheism or atheists in general. We don't hold any uniform beliefs....so nothing he believes has any bearing on me. You need to stop imagining it as a religion that we all conform to.

And how would I know the approximate content in of any one atheist's head? I ask them or ... better yet, I listen to them, just like I do other people. [One doesn't have to watch t.v. shows like Mindhunters to become aware of the importance of doing so].

That's the thing though...it seems as if you want atheists to defend the statements of some random atheist. There's no reason to.

Don't forget, I went to college as a philosophy major and many of my professors and fellow students were atheists.

Ok. This may come as a shock to you, but I've been surrounded by Christians my entire life. Like a broken record...I've heard the same things from them over and over.

So, I got dozens of earfuls about their 'various' points of view along the way. It was all interesting, of course, but at the end of the day, while my atheist cohorts were struggling to make B's and I was thankfully pulling A's in each of my classes but yet bearing an existential crisis of belief/unbelief of my own, I realized most of them could offer me "Nil" on how to live my life in any truly worthwhile fashion.

Fun story....but I don't see the relevance here.

And I suppose this observation of mine applies just as much to Hugh Hefner types as it does to any of Nietzche's followers ...

Ok? Again...I don't see how any of this has anything to do with the topic. I'm not any of those atheists you knew....I'm pretty sure none of the other atheists here are either.

None of your conversations with those atheists necessarily applies to any other atheist. We aren't all connected in some way. We don't share a common set of beliefs.

 

[bèlla]

Sorry, I edited my post again. You would never tell someone what...that they are influenced by Judeo-Christian thought? Do you really believe that there is any atheist on this planet who isn't?

No, I wouldn’t. My faith doesn’t give me license to violate propriety. I’m no soothsayer. I’d let them open up to the measure of their comfort and share themselves. I know lots of atheists and we get along because I respect them.

I am incapable of saying every person is this or that. Difference is a fact of life. And I’m okay with it. I don’t need others to conform to my worldview. God didn’t impress any of the things you’re saying when I came to faith or since that time.

There’s no one-size-fits-all atheist.

 

[Silmarien]

But, do you believe that these philosophies were left historically untouched by Christianity?

Yes and no. One of the major atheistic proponents of virtue ethics, Philippa Foot, was directly influenced by contact with Catholic philosophers, so certainly can't be said to have come up with it independently of Christianity.

But virtue ethics are older than Christianity. This comes from the Greek world and is perfectly coherent on its own. (Well, as much as anything is.)

 

[Tone]

No, I wouldn’t. My faith doesn’t give me license to violate propriety. I’m no soothsayer. I’d let them open up to the measure of their comfort and share themselves. I know lots of atheists and we get along because I respect them.

I am incapable of saying every person is this or that. Difference is a fact of life. And I’m okay with it. I don’t need others to conform to my worldview. God didn’t impress any of the things you’re saying when I came to faith or since that time.

There’s no one-size-fits-all atheist.

I think maybe you are interpreting what I am saying incorrectly. I haven't intended to disrespect anybody here...no one has even expressed this to me. I am sorry if you feel this way. I would like an atheist to explain to me how they are not influenced by Judeo-Christianity and/or the Bible, in any way... I would like anybody to explain to me how any atheist anywhere on this planet is not...I am sorry if I am coming off as myopic or rude or otherwise prideful. I really cannot see it. Thank you.

 

[bèlla]

I think maybe you are interpreting what I am saying incorrectly. I haven't intended to disrespect anybody here...no one has even expressed this to me.

You misunderstand my intention and it isn’t directed to you at all. My opinion is merely that. I don’t have a right to assume it holds true for others. Nor would I be so bold to tell anyone where their morality hails from. Let alone a stranger. Atheist or otherwise.

You are seeking an all-inclusive answer that does not exist. Other posters have said the same.

 

[bèlla]

I would like an atheist to explain to me how they are not influenced by Judeo-Christianity and/or the Bible, in any way... I would like anybody to explain to me how any atheist anywhere on this planet is not...

This goes back to our commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves. That’s why its an issue of propriety for me. I wouldn’t want someone putting words in my mouth or telling me how I think or feel.

Recollect when you shared your testimony with me and you’ll have your answer. Did I receive what was stated or parrot the reasons for its occurrence? That is the way we must broach this. Every story is different.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Deal with the content of Smith's book, or at least comment on what your friend Shermer has to say, OR get off my thread. These acts of dalliance you do where you just show up and try to turn the thesis back upon the head of your interlocutor with polemics and without actually engaging the content needs to stop.

And how would I know the approximate content in of any one atheist's head? I ask them or ... better yet, I listen to them, just like I do other people. [One doesn't have to watch t.v. shows like Mindhunters to become aware of the importance of doing so].

Don't forget, I went to college as a philosophy major and many of my professors and fellow students were atheists. So, I got dozens of earfuls about their 'various' points of view along the way. It was all interesting, of course, but at the end of the day, while my atheist cohorts were struggling to make B's and I was thankfully pulling A's in each of my classes but yet bearing an existential crisis of belief/unbelief of my own, I realized most of them could offer me "Nil" on how to live my life in any truly worthwhile fashion. And I suppose this observation of mine applies just as much to Hugh Hefner types as it does to any of Nietzche's followers ...

I'll put it this way Philo....

I know you don't think I watched the video...but I did. I don't understand what the point of this thread is based on the first 10-15 minutes of the video. I don't remember exactly where I tapped out, I think it was around the 12 minute mark, but here's what I got from it....

You have an atheist host, a Christian guest, and it's more or less an interview about a book the Christian wrote. As far as the Christian goes....he basically says...

"Sometimes I come across an atheist who makes moral arguments like..."

Everyone deserves the same universal human rights.

"...and I disagree that someone can rationalize that belief as an atheist."

They go into some more detail explaining that....but there's no real argument there. I understand that the atheist he's referring to believes in some version of humanism...but I don't know enough about that particular atheist's view of humanism to really comment on it. I certainly can't trust this Christian who disagrees with him to accurately convey the argument of an atheist who isn't even a part of the conversation.

So what exactly are we supposed to discuss? The overreach of humanism in regards to universal human rights? What is the topic?

 

[Tone]

You misunderstand my intention and it isn’t directed to you at all. My opinion is merely that. I don’t have a right to assume it holds true for others. Nor would I be so bold to tell anyone where their morality hails from. Let alone a stranger. Atheist or otherwise.

You are seeking an all-inclusive answer that does not exist. Other posters have said the same.

This goes back to our commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves. That’s why its an issue of propriety for me. I wouldn’t want someone putting words in my mouth or telling me how I think or feel.

Recollect when you shared your testimony with me and you’ll have your answer. Did I receive what was stated or parrot the reasons for its occurrence? That is the way we must broach this. Every story is different.

Sometimes love has to ask tough questions.

 

[bèlla]

Sometimes love has to ask tough questions.

Asking a question is one thing. Determining the answer beforehand and rejecting their response is another.

At any rate, I’ve answered.

 

[Tone]

Asking a question is one thing. Determining the answer beforehand and rejecting their response is another.

At any rate, I’ve answered.

I haven't received a response...except from @Silmarien (thank you). Thank you for yours.

 

[Tone]

How would you possibly know the basis for an atheist's morality without asking them?

This is what I've been asking.


*And I've assumed that Judeo-Christian thought and/or the Bible is an influence.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This is what I've been asking.

Well the answer is pretty simple....you can't.

 

[FireDragon76]

Ok. Yes, yes, I know! Everyone hates long, elaborate media representations, and in recognizing this, I realize that the following video is well over an hour long. You can just ignore most of the video if you want to since all that probably needs to be heard is what (Christian) sociologist Christian Smith states to (Atheist) Michael Shermer within the first 10-15 minutes. This leaves things open for further discussion and exploration ...

Cheers!

...and below is the "short" of it. The very short of it.

Nonfiction Book Review: Atheist Overreach: What Atheism Can’t Deliver, by Christian Smith.

Look up Yuval Noah Harari and watch his history of the world some

Some Christian apologists make atheists or secularists sound intentionally dire, when that isn't necessarily the point at all.

 

[FireDragon76]

Just to help steer the conversation towards the OP:

"As far as I can tell, human beings who are atheists have reason to be modestly good, but not stupendously good. That's all I'm saying" -Christian Smith, 25:28.​

But... I don't know that many stupendously good Christians.

If we are going by goodness, then I'd say there are just as many stupendously good people in other religions (or none) as in Christianity.

The high ideals of Christianity may actually present problems in practically living that out. I've lived in the South over half my life, and despite seeing alot of "Bible belt", I also see alot of people who who cannot conform to the rigid and banal moral codes of the average Baptist. Indeed, demanding to be only modestly good seems like an eminently reasonable ideal, in comparison (if only we had a modestly good president right now, for instance).

 

[FireDragon76]

He's not demanding anything. He's just pointing out that atheism can't do what so many atheists say it can.

I've listened to a few atheists like Harari or Harris and I think many Christian apologists fail to understand their approach.

Harris's argument that we don't need religion to recognize human flourishing is very similar to the arguments that Siddartha Gauthama made over 2500 years ago to the Kalama people in response to their perplexity over the number of ways to live in the world. That doesn't require a perfectly "objective" standard of morality.



Er... I don't think anyone is saying that atheism qua atheism is the basis for a moral compass. No one is claiming that they can in their function as atheists. That's not what the conversation is about. It is essentially about whether atheism limits the formulation of a moral compass.[/QUOTE]