The so-called "biblical" view on slavery ...

[Caliban]

Maybe it wasn’t you but someone replied about how people constantly don’t follow God’s laws about murder, theft, etc, yet God still gives laws against that stuff, so why not also give laws against slavery as well even if people won’t follow that either, since they keep breaking the other ones so what difference does it make? So that is what my replies have been trying to get at, that with slavery it was more complicated because you’d be making a run at the structure of society itself, it would be different than those other examples. Yes I agree that God gave a bunch of laws that people don’t follow.

Why do I even try if people here just throw critical thinking out the window?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I wouldn't know unless I could sit down with each of them and hear what they have to say. In this case, I think the term "qualitative" supercedes "quantitative."

Really? You have no idea. This is just more avoidance. Pew research center has a lot of statistics of why people believe. The reasons you give for your belief do not even register.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

This is a prime example of what I was talking about. You think you have a better idea than God about how to do things but the only problem is you can’t see the results of your idea, He can. I can just picture God in heaven replying to your statement saying “yeah I could do it that way but then this and this and this will happen so just let Me do it My way because I know what I’m doing and you don’t.”

It is not my fault that God created me this way. If he wants to show me he is moral or has a better plan then great, he can do that. My plan avoids children being raped, murder, genocide, slavery, etc. etc. etc. God is going to make everything right in the future, just do it sooner.

Tell me how giving rules for slavery over stopping it is more moral?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It is not my fault that God created me this way. If he wants to show me he is moral or has a better plan then great, he can do that. My plan avoids children being raped, murder, genocide, slavery, etc. etc. etc. God is going to make everything right in the future, just do it sooner.

Tell me how giving rules for slavery over stopping it is more moral?

What if these rules for slavery resulted in more people repenting and turning to God for help? Then the temporary suffering in this world that resulted in more people repenting would’ve resulted in the salvation of more people and those people will praise Him for for their suffering that led them to salvation.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What if these rules for slavery resulted in more people repenting and turning to God for help? Then the temporary suffering in this world that resulted in more people repenting would’ve resulted in the salvation of more people and those people will praise Him for for their suffering that led them to salvation.

Nope. My plan is to create everyone in heaven from the start. By definition that would mean more people saved than in hell.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nope. My plan is to create everyone in heaven from the start. By definition that would mean more people saved than in hell.

God created those world to cultivate people who would choose to love Him. Love is a gift given of someone’s own free will. Without free will love has no value.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

God created those world to cultivate people who would choose to love Him. Love is a gift given of someone’s own free will. Without free will love has no value.

Can you choose to love God in the afterlife? If so then choose then, if not then it does not matter

 

[BNR32FAN]

Can you choose to love God in the afterlife? If so then choose then, if not then it does not matter

No my friend, universalism is a false teaching.

“"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-46‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No my friend, universalism is a false teaching.

“"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-46‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You are missing the point. I agree the bible does not support it. God made those rules and he could have done it an alternate way which would not have the necessity of hell and save everyone. Why could not have god saved everyone from the start?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Really? You have no idea. This is just more avoidance. Pew research center has a lot of statistics of why people believe. The reasons you give for your belief do not even register.

That's fine if you have a piece of Pew Research. Please cite it, because like you, I don't want to have to do any extra work or research or other reading ...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh, and by the way: forum rules. "Please treat all members with respect and courtesy through civil dialogue. Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF."
While the other things you said may come under the heading of "descriptions of another person's debating style," I think that "snivelling troll" actually counts as an insult.
We've had a long correspondenceship, and despite disagreeing on virtually everything, we have mostly managed to maintain a cordial tone. Let's keep it that way.

Rules? Oh my! Where'd those come from?

Well, if all of those rules put a damper on snide inferences, let's agree to avoid making those kinds of comments AND avoid making various insinuation as to the intellectual, rational, psychological or other deficiencies we think other may be committing simply because they happen to disagree with us.

Wouldn't you agree that disagreement doesn't necessarily imply deficiency on the part of another person? Take for instance the fact that I think human epistemology on the whole is fraught with all kinds of problematic assumptions, and that's with the process of justification itself, well BEFORE we even get to the identification and evaluation of various evidences themselves. So, when someone implies Foundationalism as their choice of epistemological evaluation, I chuckle (snicker really) ... But I'll try not to do so from this point on, at least for a couple of weeks anyway.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You are missing the point. I agree the bible does not support it. God made those rules and he could have done it an alternate way which would not have the necessity of hell and save everyone. Why could not have god saved everyone from the start?

Not all questions can be answered, Clizby. How would any of us know 'why' God chose not to save everyone from the start? How could we possibly know?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

That's fine if you have a piece of Pew Research. Please cite it, because like you, I don't want to have to do any extra work or research or other reading ...

Forget it. Keep insults coming, that is ALL you do. Have a nice life.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Not all questions can be answered, Clizby. How would any of us know 'why' God chose not to save everyone from the start? How could we possibly know?

Go away please.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Rules? Oh my! Where'd those come from?

Well, if all of those rules put a damper on snide inferences, let's agree to avoid making those kinds of comments AND avoid making various insinuation as to the intellectual, rational, psychological or other deficiencies we think other may be committing simply because they happen to disagree with us.

Wouldn't you agree that disagreement doesn't necessarily imply deficiency on the part of another person? Take for instance the fact that I think human epistemology on the whole is fraught with all kinds of problematic assumptions, and that's with the process of justification itself, well BEFORE we even get to the identification and evaluation of various evidences themselves. So, when someone implies Foundationalism as their choice of epistemological evaluation, I chuckle (snicker really) ... But I'll try not to do so from this point on, at least for a couple of weeks anyway.

I'm glad to hear you will try to follow the forum rules.

 

[Gregorikos]

Check out Shannon Q--she is pretty great. I think you might appreciate her. We will definitely be explicating the text and showing that the Bible does advocate slavery in several places. I think the best argument a Christian has is that Jesus overturned the practice. Even that is not clear.

The problem with this thread in general, and your answer in particular, is that it overlooks the overall Biblical outline and context of:

I. Creation
II. Fall
III. Redemption

The world is a broken world, which Christ died to redeem, but that overall redemption doesn't take place on resurrection day. (1 Corinthians 15:26)


The first mention of slavery is in Genesis 9:25, and it mentioned as a curse there. It is also mentioned as a curse in Joshua 9:23. Slavery is a curse.
Slavery is not God's will. (Jeremiah 34:8-22) and not for God's people. (Leviticus 25:39-55)Slavery is not in accord with loving one's neighbor as oneself. (Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18; Mk 12:31; Lk 10:27; Jn 13:34; Ro 13:9; Gal 5:14; Jas 2:8)
Slavery is not in accord with doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. (Matt 7:12)Paul condemns slavery in 1 Tim 1:10 as not conforming to the Gospel.

Paul uses an allegory that speaks negatively of slavery in Galatians 4:21-26, 30-31, 5:1
No matter how you define slavery, it is not and was not ever God's will for His kingdom.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Go away please.

No. This is my forum home. My thread. You're the invader, not me.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm glad to hear you will try to follow the forum rules.

And I'm glad to know that you plan on doing the same.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Why do I even try if people here just throw critical thinking out the window?

I've been asking the same thing for years here on CF ...

 

[Caliban]

The problem with this thread in general, and your answer in particular, is that it overlooks the overall Biblical outline and context of:

I. Creation
II. Fall
III. Redemption

The world is a broken world, which Christ died to redeem, but that overall redemption doesn't take place on resurrection day. (1 Corinthians 15:26)


The first mention of slavery is in Genesis 9:25, and it mentioned as a curse there. It is also mentioned as a curse in Joshua 9:23. Slavery is a curse.
Slavery is not God's will. (Jeremiah 34:8-22) and not for God's people. (Leviticus 25:39-55)Slavery is not in accord with loving one's neighbor as oneself. (Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18; Mk 12:31; Lk 10:27; Jn 13:34; Ro 13:9; Gal 5:14; Jas 2:8)
Slavery is not in accord with doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. (Matt 7:12)Paul condemns slavery in 1 Tim 1:10 as not conforming to the Gospel.

Paul uses an allegory that speaks negatively of slavery in Galatians 4:21-26, 30-31, 5:1
No matter how you define slavery, it is not and was not ever God's will for His kingdom.

I know your religious text claims this--not everyone thinks it is true.