Atheism, not Islam is the enemy of Christianity

rturner76

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Yet the OP returns to the phrase "even God hates atheists!" This is simply dishonest, and inexcusable.

I agree that this is dishonest in that an Atheist has no belief in God so a statement like "God hates Atheists" would pretty much collapse on itself in that if there is no God, how can he hate Atheists?
 
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razeontherock

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Yes Robert, that's one side of it. There's also the other side, that the OP has been shown that G-d's hatred is not against mankind as a whole, but against specific and very limited spiritual traits, and that atheism is not among them. (I don't see how that could be anything spiritual)

Also, inexcusable =/= unforgivable
 
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JGG

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Wow, wherever that thread was, it was a detestable example of Christian behavior. It would be similar to showing a KKK rally because they claim to represent Christian values also.

Right. So now, show me the other side. Show me the thread of Christians love-bombing atheists with no expectations of conversion.


Yes, and I was punched in the face for being a pro-choice atheist. It's not just online, these people exist out there too. Hence, the problem with just hoping if I ignore them, they'll go away.


What would I convert them to? Honestly, I'm far more agnostic than I am atheist. I don't know what's true, how could I convert someone to that? I just want to know that people are actually thinking, rather than simply going through the motions.

I agree that this is dishonest in that an Atheist has no belief in God so a statement like "God hates Atheists" would pretty much collapse on itself in that if there is no God, how can he hate Atheists?

True, but as Oi and I have agreed that's what the Bible says. I think it's a tough task to claim that Christians must love atheists, when even God does not.
 
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rturner76

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The way I interpret the bible, in the New Testament, Jesus preaches only love. Love for your parents, friends, fellow disciples, and even your enemies. We are told. "If someone slaps you, turn the other cheek and let them slap that one. If someone takes your tunic, give him your cloak as well."

I don't have any idea where that becomes. "Throw a hay-maker at the first pro-choice atheist you see." It is clearly NOT an example of what a Christian is supposed to be doing. We've already said all this but I'm reiterating because you don't know a Christian by what they call themselves. It says in the bible "You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" Meaning, if you run in to someone that wants to punch you in the face.....Not living by the Good Book. Treats you with respect, honesty, dare I say love? That is a real Christian.

Now I have seen thread after thread between you and oi_atnz about this subject and I think you covered it so I'll stop going down that road. Like him, I want to tell you for every 1000 Christian basket cases, there is 1 truly enlightened Christian maybe 100 to one I don't know but you get my point.

You will know them by their fruits.

I would like to tell you that my experience with you has not been typical of an atheist either. Every other one I have encountered on this site has been very arrogant, condescending, insulting, and belittling toward me. So I thank you for letting your guard down a little and showing your human side of yourself. so many come on and it seems they have no feelings, just observations and conclusions and most of the time, the conclusion is, "you're an idiot for believing in purple unicorns" or something to that effect. I hope in the computer world at least you can feel you have made one christian friend in me. I won't judge you especially if you don't judge me.
 
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oi_antz

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I'm sure we agree that it being a sin doesn't prevent the attitude from being prevelant. People will just deny that the attitude exists, or excuse the attitude for some Holy reason.
Well these people are not behaving as good Christians. Notice that Christians do struggle with sin, and what you are observing in these Christians is not behavior in accordance with Jesus' teaching, but the teaching of someone who encourages sin! That is not Christian teaching and you ought to already know it. I'm suddenly wary of your motive, you seem to be supporting these attempts to hijack the Lord's name and run it through the mud. I always expected you to give Him more honor than that.
That doesn't make me feel any warmer.
I'm sorry about that, I don't know what I can do except to show you the light I know.
Where? I see where she apologized for "any misunderstandings," which is a step above saying "I'm sorry you're stupid."
Have you ever tried to swallow your own words?
Well we have both grown a lot since we first met and I've come to know that you aren't against Christ, but you are against sinful behavior. So I still have not seen an example of you actually behaving in an anti-Christ manner. In fact I observe antichrist behavior in the examples you are presenting.
Yes, on the one hand I believe that's sort of true. But, do you think that with everything we've talked about and seen here, do you think Christianity has a respectable image? Should it have one?
It should, yes it definitely should, but do you not know what is prophesied about the beast?
It's not and you just admitted that you know it. In fact you are starting to sound like a preacher of the good news!
In the end, no. Christianity doesn't look down on me because I'm condescending. If I'm condescending, it's because Christians look down on me. I read what Christians say about me. I could repeat it, but I think you know it too.
This thread is quickly turning into a war over the right to use Jesus' name.
I'm not surprised.
I googled some phrases, and surfed the net thinking it might bring up some positive results: No luck. Negative results? You Betcha!

Good work. Wait until you read what Paul says about them below..
You know what, the situation has become clearer to me too.
Not exactly. As you explained, she had some one else tell her to take that approach, right? In other words, you yourself claimed that she was taught to have that attitude. Is it not possible that others have been taught that?
Of course! Sin is only bad habit formed from bad decisions.
I know I was. When I was a kid atheist was a dirty word. Atheists were akin to satanists. I just knew atheists were bad. However, now I know that someone taught me that.
I didn't grow up in that sort of environment, and I have never been to the USA, I really am quite detached from the reality you have.
These people are learning from humans instead of God. Don't you remember that verse I showed you in Isaiah 29:13? God declares that He is against rote faith.
If you feel that the generalization is unfair then I urge you to show me some practical example, or some practical reasoning that would genuinely challenge mine. Show me that message that subverts the one I'm getting.
Thank you for the opportunity. I choose this time to give you an example from Paul of Tarsus, a very fine Christian who I have never been able to fault. He wrote a letter to the church of Philippi, what he said here is particularly relevant to our discussion:

There are a few things I want to draw your attention to in this passage. First that Paul says very concisely that we should be in agreement on matters because "we obey the truth we have". This shows that the truth is an observable entity that is common among those who mature in Christ.

Next I want you to recognize that the past is not important. It may be true that all we know is the past and that people sometimes find it hard to forgive, so the past is certainly able to haunt us. But the ability to look forward to the future is the fundamental basis of hope. This is something that you can't knock out of a Christian because we who have tasted the fruit of the tree of life know what eternal life in God's glorious presence will be like. It is better than anything carnal.

Next, what you might have noticed first, that there are some who walk the Christian road who are really enemies to the cross. These are the ones you seem to be observing as the majority of "modern Western Christianity". Notice Paul says they are proud of what they should be ashamed of. This is the primary message you have raised in this thread. You should be careful not to allow such a bad experience to tarnish your relationship with God. Notice that these people only think about earthly things. This is why that person hit you that time, if he had been concentrating on matters of Godliness then it would not have happened. Notice also that he says "but our homeland is heaven". This means that Paul is making a distinction between good Christians and bad Christians. Bad Christians have no future in heaven. It's a serious matter, I keep saying it is serious because it is literally the difference of everlasting life and death.

Finally I want you to read the last verse. Paul says that Jesus will "conquer all else everywhere". This means He gets to have the last word.

If you are willing to know the true nature of Christian love, I feel that this passage is just one of many you may stumble over when you open the bible to read in the light of Christ.
And remember, even God hates atheists!
That is still under debate for us, I believe He only hates those who are proud to be Godless. You do not demonstrate that attitude, you are merely hurt by Godless experiences and have been unable to accept God's love. It won't last forever, this is why I keep telling you to look for the light of God, because you are constantly seeing the darkness. This is what Ray is saying in a roundabout way too, that you are unable to recognize God's love even though it is staring you right in the face.
 
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rturner76

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I just thought of something as I read about your search for books by Christian writers about atheists and our ability to love them or as I was thinking what should be our ability to see the good in all people by their works. example:

My brother is a basic atheist. He was an atheist for sure but since he had kids I think he's more of an agnostic, we can't know for sure type of thing but he let's his wife expose them to church and "God" etc. He is one of the kindest people I knw. He would give you the shirt off his back and help you through anything. He has surprised me over and over again with the huge amounts of generosity he has shown to his family (being me also).

It says in the Bible "You will know them by their fruits" so I think there is a market for a book written by a Christian that shows where atheists are behaving "like Christ' without believing in the dogma. Just literally living it without speaking a word of it but a person like that could gain disciples just by their example.

Hmmm I'll have to noodle that one and fill a void in the market. It may not go over well with many Christians but I could see it being a tool to show people how Jesus lived and some of his philosophies just as a way to live your life.

That is what turned me to be Christian instead of Muslim. I looked at the way Jesus lived compared to Muhammad and saw Jesus was the more righteous in his day to day affairs. The love doctrine wins every time!
 
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GarrickBrewer

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Listen I have only read some of this but I have to say a few things:
1) There are HORRIBLE people out there that claim themselves as christians. just because i paint myslef green, try to hop around, cathc flies with my toungue, and say "ribbit," doesnt mean that I am a frog. It is the person you are on the inside that matters, not what you say you are.
2) We were told by Jesus that because the world persecuted him, we would be persecuted too. Every time an athiests attacks me they prove the Bible right.
3) The reason many TRUE christians get upset about athiests is because they are the hardest group of people to save. It is easier to show someone of another faith that our God is the true God than it is to convince someone that there is a God. and because of that it makes it hard for us to fullfill the great comission that jesus gave us " gointo all the world and spread the gospel to every people of every nation"
4) The next time a christian argues with you ( logicly, not irrationaly and threataning to harm you) remember this, they are doing it because they love you and dont want to see you go to hell.
 
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oi_antz

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Check out Self Publishing, Book Printing & eBook Publishing | Lulu.com, all you have to do is upload a pdf, upload the cover images front and back, and they will ship it straight from their website.
 
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oi_antz

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We are told. "If someone slaps you, turn the other cheek and let them slap that one. If someone takes your tunic, give him your cloak as well."
Not wanting to say that Jesus is portrayed correctly in South Park, Robert please keep in mind that we only have two cheeks. What is to stop the person beating the crap out of you? Only his conscience, make sure you keep that in mind. When Jesus comes to turn His other cheek to the world it will certainly not be slapped. God bless
 
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oi_antz

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Hi Kostya, thanks for contributing here. I need to tell you that the forum has a rule against non-Christians posting on threads that don't belong to them. This thread has already been closed and cleaned up by a moderator because of someone who trolled it. I'm concentrating hard on helping JGG understand the Christian perspective of the issue, the rules of the website are carefully constructed to optimize the effectiveness of Christian ministry. Anyhow, it is not new to JGG but I will answer your comment by quoting to you something that Jesus said about this.
I think the way this passage relates to your comment is especially relevant to the Phillipians 3 passage I quoted to JGG, where Paul speaks about 'many' who walk the Christian road but are actually enemies of the cross, and their future is everlasting destruction. So this seems to certainly support what you say, that there are many hypocrites that are actually immoral and that time will reveal this. It seems rather sad actually that the time of this revelation is already upon us, but it's nothing new really. The Pharisee's who crucified Jesus also claimed to be doing a good deed. Also notice how this topic relates to the passage of Matthew 7:13:
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell[a] is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way.
No doubt many people think Christianity is some sort of social club, without really capturing the gravity of the matter: that Jesus wants to present us blameless before God by purifying us of sin. How can we be purified of sin if we are constantly looking for sin in those around us? We can't because the very measure we use to judge another is the same measure by which we will be judged ourselves. This is what Jesus said "why worry about the speck in your brother's eye when there is a plank in yours? First remove the plank from your own eye then you will be able to help your brother".

But you and I should be able to agree to something right now. Many people call themselves Christian before they are chosen by Jesus. They want to be Christian, they try to be Christian, but they fail in some way to be what Jesus requires them to be. So they aren't conquering the sin in their life, and they aren't working hard enough to enter the narrow gate.

You seem like an intelligent thinker. I would like to speak with you more, but with respect to JGG and the forum rules. Can you begin a thread of your own to address your concerns?
 
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rturner76

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Many people mistake a religion for the people that make up that religion. Jesus has instructed us to love everyone. Even our enemies. I would say 3/4 Christians are just fine with hating their enemies and people that are different. It's no different than most Homo Sapiens. Homo Sapiens tend to gather to ones like themselves in a way to create "us" and "them." It is not what Christ teaches, so the religion is not to blame, just human nature.

Very few if any actually live up to Christ's teachings

Mahatma Ghandi and he wasn't even a Christian but he liked Christ.
Martin Luther King was murdered for his non violence struggle. Very Christ like,

Most of us every day Christians, sorry we just don't measure up
 
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JGG

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Thanks RT, I appreciate that.
 
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JGG

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I'm suddenly wary of your motive, you seem to be supporting these attempts to hijack the Lord's name and run it through the mud. I always expected you to give Him more honor than that.

Perhaps. Or perhaps I'm simply pointing out what others are doing and saying in the name of God, and am not particularly content to let it be swept under the rug.

It's not and you just admitted that you know it. In fact you are starting to sound like a preacher of the good news!

Well, let's not say things we can't take back.

This thread is quickly turning into a war over the right to use Jesus' name.

Perhaps. Or perhaps it's merely showing that there is a war over Jesus' name.


Thanks, but I really meant something that shows that contemporary (Modern Western Christianity) has the same message.[/QUOTE]
 
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JGG

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To make my point for me, let's imagine that this frog...


...believes that this frog...


...is not a True Frog, because all True Frogs are orange. The Blue Frog, who believes that he is a True Frog, would likely respond that only blue frogs are real frogs, and that the orange frog is not a True Frog. Both frogs know that they alone are True Frogs, and that the other is not. Either one may be right in their little frog world, both may be frogs, maybe neither is a frog in that world.

From where I sit, outside of that world, both are clearly frogs.

2) We were told by Jesus that because the world persecuted him, we would be persecuted too. Every time an athiests attacks me they prove the Bible right.

You have been physically attacked by atheists? I mean, you're aware that in our society Christians are far and away in the majority, right? It's a bold statement to claim persecution when you make up more than 80% of the population.

I'm sorry, ultimately I don't see how this is relevant. Are you suggesting that because "the world" (it seems to me it was either the Jews, the pharisees, or the Romans) persecuted Jesus 2000 years ago, the atheists of today are the enemy of Christianity? How did that get spun?


Firstly, I cower at the idea that you get upset at groups of people based upon the relative ease at which they will submit to your religion. That is a troubling thought.

Secondly, what is the practical, objective difference between "Horrible Christians" who hate atheists, and TRUE Christians who merely express how upset they are with atheists?

4) The next time a christian argues with you ( logicly, not irrationaly and threataning to harm you) remember this, they are doing it because they love you and dont want to see you go to hell.

No, I don't buy that for a second, and I'll tell you why: At this point, the "they're trying to convert you because they love you..." simply sounds like a sales pitch. This is how someone once explained it to me:

3) The reason many TRUE christians get upset about athiests is because they [...] [make] it hard for us to fullfill the great comission that jesus gave us " gointo all the world and spread the gospel to every people of every nation"

See? According to this poster, atheists are merely a more difficult obstacle in the way of Christians fulfilling their mission for Jesus. It sort of makes it seem like love has nothing to do it and that converting atheists, or anyone for that matter, is just a means to an end.

Actually, it would make a smashing video game! Oh, wait...



I'm not a means to an end. I'm not an obstacle in your path to fulfilling your great commission (or maybe I am, but it's probably not advisable to view me that way). If True Christians are upset at me because I am more difficult to convert than a theist, then True Christians' motivations are misplaced from the start.

I don't want to pick on you here, it says that you're just 16 (and yet somehow a member of the Republican Party?), but you have expressed ideas about atheists that are somewhat in conflict. Perhaps you ought to think them out a bit more.
 
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oi_antz

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Perhaps. Or perhaps I'm simply pointing out what others are doing and saying in the name of God, and am not particularly content to let it be swept under the rug.
What do you think Jesus is talking about when He speaks of "hot", "cold" and "lukewarm"?
Do you not think He is speaking about the duality you are observing? Those who are spiritually rich, poor or content to be poor?
Well, let's not say things we can't take back.
It is the second time I have had to trust your judgment
Perhaps. Or perhaps it's merely showing that there is a war over Jesus' name.
Using your orange vs blue frogs analogy below, I cannot agree that you don't recognize the difference between orange frogs and blue frogs. It is just as simple when observing Christianity. You can observe that there are spiritually rich Christians and spiritually poor Christians. Even you are capable of that, though you have in the past put up quite a fight to acknowledge it.
Thanks, but I really meant something that shows that contemporary (Modern Western Christianity) has the same message.
As long as you have an axe to grind you will only see what you are looking for. Go round different churches and listen to what they say, with every church and every pastor there is a different message. Just lurk and listen, you may just be surprised that you can hear a positive message if you happen to be in the right place at the time it is spoken. For instance just two weeks ago I went to a Catholic church and the preacher was talking about how there are 'no outsiders'. He used the story of the Samaritan woman who convinced Jesus to heal her daughter by reminding Him that dogs eat the crumbs under the table. With a sermon like that, there is clearly a positive and negative light to observe.

Until you take the initiative to hunt down the positive teachers, please don't complain to me about what the media tells you because it is a plain manipulator of the masses with a very clear antichrist agenda. And don't complain either about what some foolhardy brat thinks about atheist's because it is plain that they are not representing God to you. But do pay attention to those who you know are talking sensibly because it is in those words that you will find reliable truth. It is only when you learn from good teachers, that you can grow to your best potential. In fact Jesus said a student is no greater than his teacher, so to get the best teacher in the world you will literally need to ask Jesus. Until you do, you know what they say "don't believe everything that you read".
 
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oi_antz

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Hi JGG, further on the topic of Christianity being it's own enemy, take a read of the wisdom in this post:
 
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rturner76

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I don't believe that rant for one second! It's the rantings of paranoia that look to outside places for Satan and that is the real deception. While we are searching for Satan in agencies and institutions, he is attacking your mind on the inside. We know that there is spiritual wickedness in high places but that is individual's greed. The deception is looking for Satan somewhere else when he is sitting right on your shoulders whispering in your ear. Telling you not to trust, telling you who is evil and who is not but we have the ability to look to the Holy Spirit and the instructions given to us in the New testament of the Bible. We can discern for ourselves where evil lies and I doubt it is in the United Way. there may be misguided people within the organization but the majority of people involved want to make a difference in people's lives and affect a positive change in the world period. All that right wing gun toting anti-environment, anti-catholic stuff is an agenda this Christian does not subscribe to. I believe in personal responsibility and affecting the people around you in a positive way. I don't believe we will advance the mission of Christ and the Disciples by tearing down institution that are by mission statement helpful to society. That is politics. BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE MY FRIENDS. LEAD BY EXAMPLE. BUILD UP DON'T TEAR DOWN. WHAT'S DONE IN DARKNESS WILL COME TO LIGHT!
 
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