Are Trinitarians Christians?

Are Trinitarians Christians?

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Phoenix

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Ed,

Here's ANOTHER version of Zech. 12:10&nbsp; (<I>Today's English Version</I>) which I BELIEVE is the more accurate translation

The TEV is like reading a Dick and Jane book !

While i agree that God is Spirit,

And since God is SPIRIT, then He could NOT have been the one who was&nbsp;pierced or stabbed

I also recognize that God can be manifest in any form he chooses to be at anytime.

Exd 33:22:23

And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

This again is God talking to Moses, and it aint no burning bush.

:wave:
 
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wblastyn

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And since God is SPIRIT, then He could NOT have been the one who was pierced or stabbed
God chose to add human nature to His divine nature, which meant he could be killed because dying is a part of being human. Doesn't mean He will stay dad though ;)
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by Phoenix
Ed,

The TEV is like reading a Dick and Jane book !

That's what you say because you don't like how Zech. 12:10 is rendered in this version. You are allowing your BIAS toward the Deity of Jesus CLOUD your thinking.

While i agree that God is Spirit, I also recognize that God can be manifest in any form he chooses to be at anytime.

Exd 33:22:23

And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

This again is God talking to Moses, and it aint no burning bush.

Jesus cried out while he was hanging on the cross, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" (Mark 15:34). Christ DIED (John 19:33). Are you saying that Zech. 12:10 is referring to this MAN (John 8:40) who DIED? You are WRONG!

Apostle Paul wrote that God is INVISIBLE and IMMORTAL (Tim. 1:17; 6:16).&nbsp;&nbsp;Therefore, God cannot be pierced and cannot die.

Apostle Paul also wrote&nbsp;that it was&nbsp; GOD who&nbsp;RAISED Jesus from the&nbsp;DEAD. (Rom. 10:9). Therefore, it was NOT God who was PIERCED or stabbed. Hence, the TEV rendition of Zech. 12:10 is the MORE accurate translation.

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by wblastyn
God chose to add human nature to His divine nature, which meant he could be killed because dying is a part of being human. Doesn't mean He will stay dad though ;)

Since when have you been more authoritative than apostle Paul? Apostle Paul wrote that God is INVISIBLE and IMMORTAL (1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16). Apostle Paul also wrote that it was God who RAISED Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). Let me ask you wblastyn, can you pierce someone you cannot see? Can anyone who is IMMORTAL die?

AFTER Jesus was RAISED by God, he told his disciples that a SPIRIT (which God is - John 4:24) does NOT have flesh and bones like he has (Luke 24:39).&nbsp; Hence, your belief that Zech. 12:10 refers to&nbsp;God is FALSE!

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by tericl2
Actually the TEV is a dynamic translation. Hardly the translation from which to argue points of accuracy. Here is what Young's Literal Translation says -

Zech. 12:10
And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.


Here is another literal version -

Zech 12:10 (LITV)
And I will pour on the house of David, and on those living in Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they shall be bitter over Him, like the bitterness over the first-born.


I think you will find these much more accurate for in depth study.

Apostle Paul wrote that God is INVISIBLE and IMMORTAL (1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16). I can't imagine how one can stab or pierce someone he can't see. And I also can't imagine that apostle Paul, a learned man would not know what "immortal" means. One who is "immortal" CANNOT die!

Apostle Paul also wrote that it was God who RAISED Jesus from the DEAD (Rom. 10:9). Apostle Mark wrote that Jesus cried out "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" while Jesus was hanging on the cross (Mark 15:34). And the soldiers saw that Jesus was DEAD (John 19:33).

Thus, it was NOT God who was pierced and died. It was Jesus, the MAN who was PIERCED and who died. Therefore, the TEV rendition of Zech. 12:10 is the ACCURATE translation.

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by OldShepherd M

More of the same heretical mumbo jumbo. You acknowledge that God is speaking in this passage but because it contradicts you man-made doctrine it is absurd.

OldShepherd,

You talk like you are more authoritative that Apostle Paul. Are you? Don't you know that according to apostle Paul, God is INVISIBLE and IMMORTAL ( Tim. 1:17; 6:16)?

Do you know what INVISIBLE means? Can you tell me how one can possibly pierce someone that can't be seen? Do you still INSIST that it was God who was PIERCED?

Do you know what IMMORTAL means? FYI, it means that one who is IMMORTAL cannot die. Do you still INSIST that it was God who&nbsp;DIED on the cross? Jesus cried out, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" (Mark 15:34). Then the soldiers SAW that Jesus ws DEAD (John 19:33). Do you still INSIST that God DIED?&nbsp;

If you are still NOT convinced, read Romans 10:9 again and tell me who raised Jesus from the dead.

Now, put on your thinking cap OldShepherd and use the little intelligence that God gave you, if any.

If Jesus were God and he died, that means that God is NOT immortal after all and you make apostle Paul a LIAR. And if Jesus&nbsp;were God, and God RAISED him from the DEAD, you would make God a LIAR because God has said so many times that He&nbsp;ALONE is God.&nbsp;

Who's talking mumbo-jumbo OldShepherd? Next time, put the Bible where your mouth is so we can have a more profitable discussion.

Ed
 
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Originally posted by OldShepherd
That is very interesting. By whom is "his" understood to "collectively represent all the children of Israel?" By anti-Trinitarians? Because that is certainly not the understanding of the the Jewish translators of the Jewish Publication society (JPS) and the Jewish translators of the LXX, 250 years BC.

(JPS) Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.

(LXX) 6 Thus saith God the King of Israel, and the God of hosts that delivered him; {1} I am the first, and I am hereafter: beside me there is no God.

I am fairly certain that the Jewish Publication Society does not, and the LXX translators did not, have a Trinitarian bias.

Capitalization, in modern versions, is irrelevant! The original Hebrew did not have any!

Only a trinitarian would see that verse as two gods speaking.

6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.

Who is Israel's Redeemer?

Isa 47:4
As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

43:3
For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

He is not talking of Himself as seperate beings, or persons. He is listing the functions He holds as one.

60:16
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

41:14
Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel

From the same KJV, over here, it's translated properly as 'thy.'

44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Again, here the proper translation of 'thy' is used.

Given the context of the rest of Isaiah (and the rest of the Tanach), you would be hard pressed to convince any non-trinitarian that there are multiple presonalities being presented in that verse.
 
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tericl2

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Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders.And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father , Prince of Peace.
(NIV)

Who is the son that was given? Who is the child that was born? JESUS!! And Jesus will be called MIGHTY GOD and EVERLASTING FATHER.

Pretty self explanatory.
 
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tericl2

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John 1:3
Through him all things were made ; without him nothing was made that has been made.

I Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created : things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us . We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only , who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This one explains how he could die. It was just the physical body that died. Can you deny God could do this if he so chose?

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word . After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Col. 2:9 and Heb 1:3 very plainly tell us that the Deity (GOD) is Jesus, and that Jesus is the EXACT representation of God's being.

John 10:30
I (Jesus) and the Father are one ."

John 14:7
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by edpobre

OldShepherd,

Now, put on your thinking cap OldShepherd and use the little intelligence that God gave you, if any. Ed
Do not start insulting me! I have confined my comments to the validity, correctness of your posts. I said what you posted was mumbo-jumbo I did not question your intellegence or your character. If all you can do is attack my inteleligence then your postion is not defensible, in other words it is false.
 
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cougan

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Psalms90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had
formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Please answer the following question. What does the reference mean everlasting to everlasting aplied to God here?

This question is for the antiTritarians.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by cougan Psalms90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had
formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Please answer the following question. What does the reference mean everlasting to everlasting aplied to God here?

This question is for the antiTritarians.

This means that God has NO beginning and NO ending. God is from eternity to eternity. In contrast, Jesus, a MAN,&nbsp;said that he proceeded forth and came from God (John 8:42).

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by OldShepherd
Do not start insulting me! I have confined my comments to the validity, correctness of your posts. I said what you posted was mumbo-jumbo I did not question your intellegence or your character. If all you can do is attack my inteleligence then your postion is not defensible, in other words it is false.

Oh, do you think that was an insult? And what do you think "mumbo-jumbo" means? Weren't you insulting my intelligence by saying that all I say is "mumbo-jumbo?"

Now you say "if all you can do is attack my intelligence..." Go over my posts and your posts and show me where I have ever attacked your intelligence before you said "all I say is 'mumbo-jumbo.'

As I said, put the Bible where your mouth is and refute my position BY the Bible NOT by what you think.

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by tericl2
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders.And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
(NIV)


Who is the son that was given? Who is the child that was born? JESUS!! And Jesus will be called MIGHTY GOD and EVERLASTING FATHER.

Pretty self explanatory.

IF the last sentence&nbsp;WERE an accurate translation of the verse, &nbsp;it would appear that God (Jesus) started out as a CHILD who knew NOTHING! Then tell me tericl2, IF Jesus is the SON that was GIVEN and he is the "mighty God and everlasting Father" himself, WHO gave Jesus and WHO is his FATHER? Did Jesus GIVE himself as a SON and a CHILD? Is Jesus the FATHER of himself?

What you are reading is a Triniarian translation of the verse. The Jewish Publications Society of America states in its footnote to Isaiah 9:6: "That is, wonderful in Counsel is God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace."

Thus, the Smith-Goodspeed Translation renders Isaiah 9:6, as follows: "For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. And the government will be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called 'Wonderful counselor is God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."

Ed
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by edpobre

If you are still NOT convinced, read Romans 10:9 again and tell me who raised Jesus from the dead.

Now, put on your thinking cap OldShepherd and use the little intelligence that God gave you, if any.

If Jesus were God and he died, that means that God is NOT immortal after all and you make apostle Paul a LIAR. And if Jesus&nbsp;were God, and God RAISED him from the DEAD, you would make God a LIAR because God has said so many times that He&nbsp;ALONE is God.&nbsp;

Who's talking mumbo-jumbo OldShepherd? Next time, put the Bible where your mouth is so we can have a more profitable discussion.
Ed

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

In an earlier post you said you didn’t care what anyone else said that you believed what Jesus said. Rom 10:9 is Paul speaking. Jesus said that He would raise Himself up, John 2:19, 10:18. You are always quoting your one or two out-of-context proof texts and asking if the writer was lying. So I ask you the same question. Was Jesus lying when He said that He would raise Himself? Was Jesus lying when He said He had received a commandment from God to take up His life after He laid it down?

May I suggest that you learn what the Bible says before you start spewing out insults, because the Bible does not support your Iglesias Ni Manalo doctrine.

I will say it one last time I called what you posted "mumbo jumbo" I did not attack you, you insulted my intelligence.
 
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LightBearer

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Originally posted by tericl2
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders.And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father , Prince of Peace.
(NIV)

Who is the son that was given? Who is the child that was born? JESUS!! And Jesus will be called MIGHTY GOD and EVERLASTING FATHER.

Pretty self explanatory.

He's not called "Allmighty God" though is he.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by tericl2
John 1:3
THROUGH him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

I Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH whom all things came and THROUGH whom we live.

Colossians 1:16
For BY him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;all things were created BY him and for him. (Capitalization mine)

&nbsp;
Can't you SEE the INCONSISTENCY of Col. 1:16? It is obvious that the translator wanted to make it appear that Jesus is the CREATOR where in Johh 1:3 and 1 Cor. 8:6, the word "through" is used instead of "by."

Gen. 1:27 teaches that God CREATED man. John 8:40 teaches that Jesus is a MAN. Therefore, apostle Paul could NOT have written that Jesus CREATED all things because in 1 Cor. 8:6, apostle Paul wrote that ALL things CAME from God the FATHER.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us . We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This one explains how he could die. It was just the physical body that died. Can you deny God could do this if he so chose?

FYI, God is SPIRIT (John 4:24) &nbsp;and a SPIRIT does NOT have flesh and bones as Jesus has (Luke 24:39). Apostle Paul wrote that God is INVISIBLE and IMMORTAL (1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16). Therefore God does NOT die.

With God nothing is impossible (Luke 1:37) but God does NOT change (Malachi. 3:6). God said that He is NOT a MAN and what He said, He makes good (Numbers 23:29). Thus, I believe that God did NOT chose to BECOME a MAN and die.

The TRUTH is, it was God who RAISED Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9).

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Col. 2:9 and Heb 1:3 very plainly tell us that the Deity (GOD) is Jesus, and that Jesus is the EXACT representation of God's being.

Col. 2:9 does NOT say Jesus is God. That's what is in your mind NOT in the Bible. Heb. 1:3 says Jesus is the express IMAGE of God. An IMAGE is NOT the REAL thing.&nbsp;

John 10:30
I (Jesus) and the Father are one."

John 14:7
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him

These verses do NOT say that Jesus and the Father are ONE...God. You are ADDING words to the Bible that are only in your mind. The word "God" is NOT in John 10:30. That's your ADDITION to the word of God. John 10:30 could mean a lot of things other than what is in your mind.

Ed
 
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LightBearer

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Jehovah God as Creator is called Father. (Isa 64:8; compare Ac 17:28, 29.) He is also the Father of spirit-begotten Christians, the Aramaic term ´Ab·ba´' being used as an expression of respect and of close filial relationship. (Ro 8:15; see ABBA.) All who express faith with a hope of everlasting life can address God as Father. (Mt 6:9) Jesus Christ, the Messiah, because of being God’s Chief Agent of life, was prophetically called Eternal Father. (Isa 9:6) Also, anyone who has imitators and followers, or those who exhibit his qualities, is regarded as a father to them. (Mt 5:44, 45; Ro 4:11, 12) In this sense the Devil is spoken of as a father.—Joh 8:44; compare Ge 3:15.

By knowing the origin of mankind, that Adam was originally a “son of God” and that we all descended from Adam (Lu 3:38), we can clearly understand the statement: “Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Ro 5:12) Also, such knowledge makes understandable how Jesus Christ can be “the last Adam” and the “Eternal Father” and how it can be that “just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.” (Isa 9:6; 1Co 15:22, 45)

There is a difference between the death of Jesus and that of Adam—a difference that highlights the value of the ransom. Adam’s death was deserved, for he willfully disobeyed his Creator. (Genesis 2:16, 17) In contrast, Jesus’ death was wholly undeserved, for “he committed no sin.” (1 Peter 2:22) So when Jesus died, he had something of enormous value that the sinner Adam did not possess at his death—the right to perfect human life. Thus, Jesus’ death had sacrificial value. Upon ascending to heaven as a spirit person, he presented the value of his sacrifice to Jehovah. (Hebrews 9:24) By doing so, Jesus purchased sinful mankind and became their new Father, a replacement for Adam. (1 Corinthians 15:45) With good reason, Jesus is called the “Eternal Father.” (Isaiah 9:6) Think of what this means! Adam, a sinful father, spread death to all his descendants. Jesus, a perfect Father, uses the value of his sacrifice to bestow eternal life upon obedient humans. Therefore he can be described as an eternal father because the life they gain is everlasting. But he is not “The Father” because even Jesus was given life by his resurrection from death by “The Father”.
 
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OldShepherd

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Posted by Kain
”Only a trinitarian would see that verse as two gods speaking.”

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.

I see you ignored the Jewish, as in non-Trinitarian, JPS and LXX translation of this verse which I posted. Did these Jewish translators translate this verse wrong? Especially the LXX translators 250 years BC. They certainly must have had a Trinitarian bias.

All those other verses you posted are totally irrelevant. Here is the word translated “his redeemer” &#1493;&#1490;&#1488;&#1500;&#1493;, in Isa 44:6. Can you locate this word? Can you identify the stem, the mood, the gender, or the case of this word? It is the word ga’al “redeemer” with the waw conjunction and the 3ms or third person masculine singular, pronominal suffix, waw &#1493; . The literal translation is “and redeemer of him” In order to be translated “thy” it would have to be written &#1493;&#1490;&#1488;&#1500;&#1498;

That is the point this verse very clearly identifies two distinct entities, One “the LORD, the King of Israel”, and two, “his Redeemer the LORD of hosts:


JPS Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.
Who is Israel's Redeemer?


LXX 6 Thus saith God the King of Israel, and the God of hosts that delivered him; I am the first, and I am hereafter: beside me there is no God.

”Given the context of the rest of Isaiah (and the rest of the Tanach), you would be hard pressed to convince any non-trinitarian that there are multiple presonalities being presented in that verse.”

I wouldn’t be too sure about that.

How A Rabbi Found Peace.
“
A parental decision to send me to America to pursue my classical education brought me to Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, Ohio. I graduated in seven years, having meanwhile taken my degrees in letters and Hebrew literature, and four years later my Master’s degree. We studied the Old Testament, translated it from Hebrew into the vernacular, went through Jewish history from beginning to the present day, and learned the oral laws.

After finishing the rabbinical course we were publicly ordained and inducted into the rabbinical office. My first call was to Dayton, Ohio, where I officiated as rabbi for ten years, during which I made many friends and received many tokens of love which I treasure highly.

Suddenly there came a change! My wife was taken seriously ill, and in spite of many physicians and specialists, she died, leaving me a distraught widower with two little children

I studied more and more various prophetic utterances. In Psalm 110:1 it is written: “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” Here was David himself, speaking of his own seed and calling Him “Lord.” How did He get up there? Why didn’t God specify? Why didn’t He speak so plainly to Israel that every Jew could understand?

In confusion I decided to begin at the first chapter of Isaiah and read the book through. I was stopped at the ninth: “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6). Here was a most incomprehensible thing!

I was faced with the doctrine of the trinity. We Jews have a popular monotheistic slogan: “Sh’ma Yisroel, Adonai Eloheynu, Adonai echod” (Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD, Deuteronomy 6:4). The word echod means one. Upon that word the doctrine of unity of Jehovah is rooted and grounded, the entire philosophy of Judaism is based. Taught by the rabbis for ages, that word echod means absolute unity. Now I could not believe it; my teaching was wrong! I began to study the word and I discovered it meant not absolute unity but composite unity.

Let me illustrate: Adam and Eve became one flesh; the Hebrew for one flesh is bosor echod, a composite unity. Moses sent twelve spies into Canaan, and they returned bearing a gigantic bunch of grapes. That cluster of grapes is called in Hebrew eschol-echod. With hundreds of grapes on the stem it could not have been an absolute unity; they are called in Hebrew “one cluster,” composite unity.

There was wickedness committed in Gibeah of Benjamin which disgraced Jehovah and His name and character. The other tribes were indignant and “all the people arose as one man.” That is what I want you to see: at that time the men of Israel, beside Benjamin, were 400,000 men of war, yet they were “knit together as one man” (in Hebrew: ish echod). Here again composite unity: thousands acted as one! These and other Scriptures showed conclusively that echod cannot be an absolute unity.
”

http://www.shalom.org.uk/Rabbis/wertheimer.htm

Other Rabbis who have believed in the Trinity.

http://www.shalom.org.uk/Rabbis/rabbis.htm

The Trinity is Jewish
http://www.menorah.org/trinity1.html

”Hear, O Israel, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of faith; in the vision of the Holy Spirit, in the beholding of the hidden eye alone. . . . So it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by Adonai Eloheinu Adonai--three modes which yet form one unity."(1)

A Christian quote? Hardly. The above is taken from the Zohar, an ancient book of Jewish mysticism. The Zohar is somewhat esoteric and most contemporary Jews don't study it, but there are other Jewish books that refer to God's plurality as well.
”

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-08/trinity.htm

Hasheeloosh Hakadosh: The Holy Trinity.

http://www.shema.com/trinity.htm
 
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TScott

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This is a very interesting thread.&nbsp; I don't want to weigh in on one side or the other but would say that obviously a Christian can still be a Christian&nbsp;regardless of his stance on the issue of the Trinity.&nbsp;

The debate over the divinity of Jesus began almost immediately after&nbsp;his death.&nbsp; Jewish followers of Jesus were seen praying to him, something that was seen as strange by their Jewish brethren when it was unheard of for a Jew to pray to anyone but God.&nbsp;

By the time modern Christianity was formed under Constantine in the fourth century the debate had polarized the Christians into two distinct camps, one led by Arius who argued that while Jesus was of a divine nature that he was subordinate to God.&nbsp; The other camp was headed by Athanasius, who influenced the later writing of the Athenasian Creed which indeed stated that in order to be a true Christian that one had to ascribe to the idea of the Trinity.&nbsp; Of course it also stated that one had to adhere to Catholicism as well.

Constantine waffled back and forth in the debate, at one point banishing Arius and at the next Athenasius.&nbsp; The rift at times became quite violent and there were killings and lynchings with Bishops being dragged out into the streets, etc.&nbsp; Finally the Athanasians won the day and three Early Church Fathers, Basil of Caesarea, his brother Greggory and Greggory of Nyssa were commissioned to explain the confusing concept of how Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit could all be one one and the same.&nbsp; What they came up with was known at the time to be the Cappadocian Document, and later the Holy Trinity.&nbsp; In short it stated that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost were three individuals that shared the same essence.

The Bible is actually quite contradictory on the subject and to say otherwise is really ignoring the written words.&nbsp; While the 4th Gospel says that Jesus and God are one, and the others allude indirectly to that, other parts of the Gospels clearly have Jesus claim to be subordinate to God, his father.

When speaking to Christians I have always found it to be a mark of maturity when they can repect the faith of others.&nbsp; After all, it is the nature of faith to do so.&nbsp; If one does not repect the faith of others, then one's faith must be shallow indeed.
 
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