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Are Trinitarians Christians?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Aug 22, 2002.

  1. YES

  2. NO

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  1. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    John 17:3 is the ultimate “proof text” for all anti-Trinitarian cults. It supposedly proves that Jesus is not God because He refers to the Father as “the only true God.” But Trinitarians recognize that while Jesus is God, Jesus is not the Father, so there is no problem or contradiction. Simply put, God can do or be anything He wants, any time, He wants, any way He wants.

    John 17:3
    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

    Jesus speaking of the Father, “the only true God” but John, the same writer, speaking of Jesus Christ, “This is the true God, and eternal life.” This is known as “harmonizing scripture” as opposed to “proof texting”, i.e. trying to prove doctrine by quoting one or two verses and ignoring verses which don’t support the doctrine.

    It will be noted that in all the passages cited I let the passages speak, they mean what they say, not once do I say that the words means something else as do all anti-Trinitarians.

    1 Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
    17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    In this passage Paul calls Jesus the King eternal and the “only wise God”

    John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Jesus was claiming present tense existence before Abraham and into the present. This happened inside the temple. The scribes and Pharisees were among those who tried to stone, i.e. murder, Jesus, in the temple, because He claimed for Himself the title, “I Am.”

    God identified Himself by the name, “I Am”/ “אה&#1497ה” to Moses, in Gen 7:14. This name, “I Am” was so exclusive to God that He condemned Assyria and Babylon for using it to refer to themselves, Isaiah 47:8, 10, and Zephaniah 2:15.


    Is 47:8 Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:

    Zep 2:15 This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.


    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    Both Paul and Peter call Jesus, “God and savior” Anti-Trinitarians want to argue, based on the English, that this means two different entities, God is one, Jesus the savior, the other. But that is not the way the Greek works.

    There is a rule of grammar called Sharp’s rule. When two nouns are joined by the copulative, “and”/”kai”, and the first noun has the definite article but the second does not, both nouns refer to the same person or thing. In both these verses God has the definite article but savior does not. Therefore, in both verses, God and savior refer to Jesus.


    1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Paul said Jesus was God manifest in the flesh.

    John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    Thomas called Jesus Lord and God. Jesus praised Him. I have already proved on this thread that Thomas was addressing Jesus as “the Lord of me and the God of me”, not exclaiming, “Oh my god!”

    29
    Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    Jesus had glory with and was loved by the Father before the foundation of the world, and was aware of that love and glory. Jesus’ self awareness did not begin at His birth in Bethlehem!

    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    Jesus existed in the form (morfh) of God and was equal with God. The word, morfh, is used only three times in the N.T., and exclusively of Jesus!

    John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
    18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

    Jesus and the Father are “two men”, recognized under Jewish law.

    Colossians 1:16
    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Jesus created all things and existed before all things.

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Jesus is the express image of God’s person.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 1:1-2 en arch hn o logoV kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon kai qeon hn o logoV outoV hn en arch proV ton qeon

    Jesus existed in the beginning with God and was God. Jesus made all things.

    Many different cults have tried to twist and wrest the words of John 1:1. But the Greek is very precise and very clear. “the word was God” (theon en o logos) and “the word was with God” (o logos ein pros ton theon) The word translated “was with’ is “pros” which means face to face.

    A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament.
    {With God} (proV ton qeon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God.”Pros” proV with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In #1Jo 2:1 we have a like use of \pros "We have a Paraclete with the Father" (paraklhton ecomen proV ton patera). See \(proswpon proV proswpon\ (face to face, #1Co 13:12), a triple use of \pros. There is a papyrus example of \pros\ in this sense \(to gnwston thV proV allhlouV sunhqhaV\, "the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" (M.&M., _Vocabulary_) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, _Origin of Prologue_, p. 8) that the use of \pros\ here and in #Mr 6:3 is a mere Aramaism.
    Robertson taught post graduate N.T. Greek for 47 years, wrote forty books, including a 1200 page Greek grammar, and the six volume “Word Pictures” quoted above.

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD (יהוה), and his Spirit, hath sent me.
    17 Thus saith the LORD, (יהוה), thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD (יהוה),thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

    The Trinity in the O.T.. One who identifies Himself as YHWH (יהוה) thy Redeemer, is sent by a second Lord (adonay) YHWH/יהוה and three, His spirit.,

    1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    The Trinity in the N.T.. “the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” Many anti-Trinitarians want to argue that 1 John 5:7 is a forgery, inserted in the text in the 16th century. But the early church father Cyprian quoted it in 250 AD.

    Cyprian (250 AD) Link to: Treatise I On The Unity of the Church

    The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one." And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-111.htm#P6832_2190664

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    To be continued
     
  2. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    No man hath seen God at any time but Jesus said, “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”, both written by John.

    John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

    2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    ”both me and my Father.”, ”both the Father and the Son.” If modern “Oneness” teachings are correct, these verses are wrong. Jesus and the Father cannot be both, both requires two.

    The Tetragrammaton, (יהוה), is used of Jesus, twice in the N.T., Rom 10:9, and Act 2:21.

    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him (Isaiah 28:6, יהוה) shall not be ashamed.
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (יהוה) shall be saved.

    Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord (יהוה) shall be saved.
    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Both Romans 10:13 and Acts 2:21 are quoting Joel 2:32.

    Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (יהוה) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (יהוה) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (יהוה) shall call.

    Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    God calls the Son, “God”, twice in this passage, Heb 1:8-9!

    Rev 22:12
    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    16 I Jesus
    [/I] have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.[/I]

    ”Reward”, see Isaiah 40:10, 62:11. “First and last” see Isaiah 44:6, 48:12, below.

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    Note, who is speaking in Rev 22:12-16, and calls Himself the “Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”, I Jesus!

    Isa 40:10
    Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

    Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy ישועה/Yeshua” salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

    Note, in this passage God speaks of the one coming, with his reward, in the third person, distinct from Himself. ישועה/”Yeshua”/salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him,

    Isa 44:6
    Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Note, the LORD speaking, two distinct personalities, one, “יהוהYHWH” the king of Israel and two, a separate, “His redeemer, יהוה/YHWH “Tzabaoth”/”hosts.”

    Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am (ego eimi, LXX) he; I am (ego eimi, LXX) the first, I also am the last.

    In Isaiah, God says He is the first and the last. Jesus said He is the first and last. How many first and last are there?

    Alpha and Omega in the early church


    Clement, Stromata, [A.D. 153-193-217.]

    Wherefore the Word is called the Alpha and the Omega, of whom alone the end becomes beginning, and ends again at the original beginning without any break. Wherefore also to believe in Him, and by Him, is to become a unit, being indissolubly united in Him; and to disbelieve is to be separated, disjoined, divided.

    The sensible types of these, then, are the sounds we pronounce. Thus the Lord Himself is called "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end,"[7] " by whom all things were made, and without whom not even one thing was made."[8]

    Wherefore the Word is called the Alpha and the Omega, of whom alone the end becomes beginning, and ends again at the original beginning without any break.

    To Be Continued
     
  3. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Wherefore also to believe in Him, and by Him, is to become a unit, being indissolubly united in Him; and to disbelieve is to be separated, disjoined, divided.

    The Stromata, Or Miscellanies., Book IV.

    Chap. XXV.—

    And the Son is neither simply one thing as one thing, nor many things as parts, but one thing as all things; whence also He is all things. For He is the circle of all powers rolled and united into one unity. Wherefore the Word is called the Alpha and the Omega, of whom alone the end becomes beginning, and ends again at the original beginning without any break. Wherefore also to believe in Him, and by Him, is to become a unit, being indissolubly united in Him; and to disbelieve is to be separated, disjoined, divided.

    VI. On Monogamy.[1]

    The apostle, too, writing to the Ephesians, says that God "had proposed in Himself, at the dispensation of the fulfilment of the times, to recall to the head" (that is, to the beginning) "things universal in Christ, which are above the heavens and above the earth in Him."[6] So, too, the two letters of Greece, the first and the last, the Lord assumes to Himself, as figures of the beginning and end!

    Cyprian, Three Books of Testimonies, Second book. (ca. 248 AD)
    Also Paul to the Colossians: "Who is the image of the invisible God, and the first-born of every creature."[4] Also in the same place: "The first-born from the dead, that He might in all things become the holder of the pre-eminence."[5] In the Apocalypse too: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto Him that is thirsting from the fountain of the water of life freely."[6] That He also is both the wisdom and the power of God, Paul proves in his first Epistle to the Corinthians. "Because the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews indeed a stumbling-block, and to the Gentiles foolishness; but to them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."[7]

    Justin Martyr, First Apology, (ca. 150 AD)
    For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ; and in obedience to Him, we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, (2) but assert that they are wicked and impious demons, (2) whose actions will not bear comparison with those even of men desirous of virtue.

    a certain rational power[proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave(Nun).

    Origen, Commentaries on John, (185 – 254 AD)
    23. The Title "Word" Is To Be Interpreted By The Same Method As The Other Titles Of Christ. The Word Of God Is Not A Mere Attribute Of God, But A Separate Person. What Is Meant When He Is Called The Word.

    But in the Apocalypse of John, too, He says,(7) "I am the first and the last, and the living One, and I was dead. Behold, I am alive for evermore." And again,(8) "I am the A and the W, and the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

    Four Discourses Against The Arians
    Written Between 356 And 360.


    Discourse IV
    And this John enables us to do, who says in the Apocalypse, 'I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are they who make broad their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever maketh and loveth a lie. I Jesus have sent My Angel, to testify these things in the Churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star. And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and let him that heareth say, Come; and let him that is athirst, Come; and whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely[6].' If then 'the Offspring of David' be the 'Bright and Morning Star,' it is plain that the flesh of the Saviour is called 'the Morning Star,' which the Offspring from God preceded; so that the sense of the Psalm is this, 'I have begotten Thee from Myself before Thy appearance in the flesh;' for 'before the Morning Star' is equivalent to 'before the Incarnation of the Word.'

    These were Christians who were tortured and murdered in hideous ways, sword, spear, arrows, fire, wild beasts, etc., because they would not renounce Jesus and worship the emperor. They read the Biblical languages, Hebrew and Greek.

    Who should we believe, modern cults that can’t parse a Greek or Hebrew verb, if their life depended on it, or these faithful Christians? The entire early church contradicts the teachings of Manalo, Iglesias Ni Christi or what is taught as “Oneness”.
     
  4. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Originally posted by ElPobre
    Heb. 1:8 was LIFTED from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. If Heb. 1:8 were accurately trnslated, how MANY Gods would there be? Read verse 7 again and again until you find out how many Gods do people who believe Heb. 1:8 have.

    The translators omitted "OF OUR" before savior to make it look like Jesus is God. Apostle Peter knew better than call Jesus God.To him, there is only ONE God, the Father (1 Cor. 8:6). Peter wrote in 1 Peter1:3 that Jesus has a God and Father.


    This is the big copout of all cults. If the Bible contradicts their man made doctrine then the Bible is wrong. Well Ed, where are the correct scriptures? Where is the correct translation? Can you read Greek and Hebrew? Can you correctly translate the scriptures for us? I have asked this before. I have posted Greek and Hebrew and all anti-Trinitarians who claim that the Bible is mistranslated, should be able to easily and correctly translate these two passages. And OH BTW Heb 1:8,9 correctly quotes Ps 45:6.

    If you can’t translate these passages then your claims that the Bible is mistranslated are false. I believe that violates one of the commandments. Here is a hint the bottom passage is Greek, from the N.T., and quotes the top passage, from the O.T..


    כ&#1499לב שב על- קאו כסיל ש ונה באולתו

    kuwn epistreyaV epi to idion exerama kai uV lousamenh eiV kulisma borborou
     
  5. Se7en

    Se7en hasta la victoria siempre

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    Why is it that if one does not believe in the Trinity doctrine, he/she is automatically labeled as a member of a cult?  Wouldn't that make all of Protestantism a giant cult since their beliefs differ from the Cathlics?  Weird.
     
  6. suzie

    suzie Senior Member

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    For unto us a child is born, unto to us a Son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6
     
  7. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    Old Shepherd,

    I do NOT claim to know Hebrew or Greek but I have a Today's English Version (TEV) translation of Psalm 45:6 which I BELIEVE is accurate because it CONFORMS with KNOWN and ACCEPTED truths: "The KINGDOM that God has GIVEN you will last for ever and ever. You rule over your people with justice."

    Luke 1:32-33 PROVES that Jesus was GIVEN a KINGDOM that will last for ever and ever.

    Ed
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    Susie,

    Do you agree that Isaiah 9:6 is a PROPHECY? If you do, was the WHOLE prophecy fulfilled? If you THINK you do, plese show me where else in the Bible is Jesus called "mighty God and everlasting Father?" I bet you won't find any.

    In FACT, Jesus FORBADE his disciples to call anyone ON earth Father, for there is only one Father and he was in heaven (Matt.23:9). And he DECLARED that the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God.

    Now, if that part of the PROPHECY was NOT fulfillled, then Isaiah could NOT have been a prophet of God (Deut. 18:22). But we know for a FACT that Isaiah was a PROPHET of God. 

    Thus, we can ONLY conclude that the last sentence of Isaiah 9:6 is a MISTRANSLATION. And this is supported by the FACT that Isaiah 9:6 does NOT have only one version. 

    Here is how the Smith-Goodspeed Translation renders Isaiah 9:6: "For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; And the government will be upon his shoulder; And his name will be called 'Wonderful counselor is God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."

    Ed
     
  9. AngelAmidala

    AngelAmidala Legend

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    So, if the last sentence of Isaiah 9:6 is a "mistranslation" as you say, then is your quotation of Isaiah 9:6 is to show how it can be translated other ways?

    If that's the case, I've got an Authorized King James Version here, and it says "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulders: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

    Quite honestly, there are many, many, many other verses that are translated in different ways.  Not just this one particular verse.  It just depends on the translator and how they interpreted the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.

    That includes the TEV you used as an example to OldShepherd and the Smith-Goodspeed Translation (of which I haven't heard of before now) you used as an example to suzie, in the post I quoted.  :)
     
  10. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    AngelAmidala,

    You are right in your assessment that many verses are translated in different ways depending on the translator and how they interpreted the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.

    For example, the authorized King James Version was translated with a bias toward the DEITY of Jesus. And the reason this is a MISTRANSLATION is because it CONTRADICTS known and accepted TRUTHS that are written in the Bible.

    On the other hand, the following rendition of Isaiah 9:6 is FREE of BIAS and conforms with known and accepted TRUTHS that are written in the Bible.

    Isaiah 9:6 (Smith-Goodspeed Translation): "For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; And the government will be upon his shoulder; And his name will be clled 'Wonderful counselor is God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace'."

    Christ was NEVER called "mighty God and everlasting Father" by his disciples. Christ himself FORBADE his disciples to call anyone on earth Father for one is the Father who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9). And Christ was NEVER called a "god." He was called "LORD" instead (Acts 2:36; Rom. 10:9). Christ acknowledged that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3) who is from "everlasting to everlasting" (Psalm 90:2).

    Ed
     
  11. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    Originally posted by OldShepherd
    Why would someone who BELIEVES what the Bible says be a "cult?" From whom did you learn this OldShepherd? You say that John 17:3 "supposedly proves that Jesus is NOT God." You DON'T believe  what Jesus says in John 17:3, don't you?

    Your saying that your Trinitarian BELIEF that Jesus is God poses NO contradiction or problem because Jesus is NOT the Father is ABSURD because it does NOT make any sense. How can the FATHER be the ONLY true God if the  SON is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the Father?

    While it is true that God can do or be anything He wants, any time He wants, any way He wants, please show Biblical PROOF (not assumption) that this is what God really wants. Does God WANT to become a MAN? Does God WANT to have any other God beside Him? Does God WANT to CHANGE Himself into a MAN?


    "Harmonizing scripture" is euphomism for "twisting the scripture to fit a doctrine." On the other hand, what you call "proof texting" is what apostle Paul prescribes as written in 1 Cor. 2:13, thus: "These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, COMPARING spiritual things with spiritual." 

    Apostle John is NOT referring to Jesus as the true God and eternal life in 1 John 5:20. If you rid yourself of your BIAS, you would realize that the true God and eternal life referred to here is the Father, to "harmonize" with John 17:3.

    Who CAME to give us understanding? The SON, right? What understanding did the SON give us? That we may know HIM who is true. That we are in HIM who is true. Even in HIS (the true) SON, Jesus Christ. This is the true God (HIM) and eternal life.

    Who is the true God (HIM) and eternal life that Jesus CAME to give us understanding? The FATHER, of course!




    Look again OldShepherd. John 17:3 means what it says but you try to discredit it. 1 John 5:20 means wht it says but you try to TWIST it to make it fit your FALSE doctrine. Think about it OldShepherd, if Jesus is God, who is his son, Jesus Christ?

    Open your eyes OldShepherd so you would know what you are talking about. Read 1 Tim. 1:17 again and tell me if Jesus is INVISIBLE or visible. Also, is Jesus IMMORTAL or mortal?Now tell me, was apostle Paul referring to Jesus as the King eternal. IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE and only wise God?

    You THINK like the Jews and the Pharises who THOUGHT that Jesus CLAIMED equality with God and was God by saying "I AM" and when he said God was his Father (John 5:18) and he is the son of God (John 10:36). Jesus NEVER claimed equality with God. The TRUTH is he even said the Father is GREATER than he (John 5:19).

    Ed


     
     
  12. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Old Shepard you are quoteing from 2Peter 2:22 but not all of it. The Greek words you presented are represented by this part of the verse "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." Then the Hebrew is the following verse. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

    That was fun Old Shepard I enjoyed figureing that out.
     
  13. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Old Shepard I take my hat off to you. Excelent. Couldnt of said it better myself. Ed have you really even begun to answer the questions or verses presented? I don't think you have. What happened to the other guy franklin that was helping you that agreed with your view? I cant recall the name right now. Would you please try and answer some of the questions I asked you in my previous post and some of the question asked by OS. Everything you have presented in your last post has been answered as far as I can tell. You havent presented anything new.

    You say Jesus is'nt called God. But you have been shown multiple verses that do say that Jesus is God. You have not even touched on the Holy Spirit as of yet. Again multiple verses have been presented to show that the Holy Spirit is a person having his own will but also being Deity. Maybe your biggest hang up is with the word GOD. It simply means Deity. The Father, The Holy SPirit and JESUS are all Deity. Maybe an anology will help you understand it better. Lets say there are 3 people in my family and we have the last name Deity. Are we not all Deity but yet we are distinct from one another. We are equal but we have differing roles or funtions. The Father in this family is the planner He makes up the rules and the plans and the other 2 since they love their father do his will. Now this is not a perfect example by any means but do you get the picture. It should become abundantly clear if the Father has charcteristics of Deity and the Holy Spirit and Jesus has characteristics of Deity that they are all Deity which is the one God. The bible makes distinction of who it refering to so that we know wheather or not it talking about God the Father or God the son or God the Holy Spirit. What exactly does the word GODHEAD mean to you?
     
  14. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Thank you for your input. It adds immensely to the discussion.
     
  15. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    I already answered this. You don't believe what the Bible says. How many times have you said it is mistranslated, becasue it does not support your doctrine?

    I have never encountered an anti-Trinitarian who could correctly state what the Trinity is. You are no different. I believe in ONE GOD! and I cited my scriptural proof.

    And that is exactly what I was doing, comparing scripture with scripture, while you ignore the verses which contradict your man made doctrine or say they are mistranslated.

    Learn and read the original language, true God and eternal life refers back to Jesus the last mentioned masculine noun. That is the way the Greek language works. In English that might be correct but not Greek.
    Learn and read the Greek, it is much more precise than English and the early church supports it. Your man made doctrine was concocted in 1931 by Felix Manalo, it never existed in the early church.
     
  16. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten (QeoV) Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament
    {No man hath seen God at any time} (\qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote\). "God no one has ever seen." Perfect active indicative of \horaô Seen with the human physical eye, John means. God is invisible (#Ex 33:20; De 4:12). Paul calls God \aoratoV\ ( #Col 1:15; 1Ti 1:17). John repeats the idea in #Joh 5:37; 6:46. And yet in #14:7 Jesus claims that the one who sees him has seen the Father as here. {The only begotten Son} (\o monogenhV uioV\). This is the reading of the Textus Receptus and is intelligible after \ws monogenouV para patroV\ in verse #14. But the best old Greek manuscripts (Aleph B C L) read \monogenhV qeoV\ (God only begotten) which is undoubtedly the true text.[/b] Probably some scribe changed it to \o monogenhV uioV\ to obviate the blunt statement of the deity of Christ and to make it like #3:16. But there is an inner harmony in the reading of the old uncials. The Logos is plainly called \qheoV\ in verse #1. The Incarnation is stated in verse #14, where he is also termed \monogenhV He was that before the Incarnation. So he is "God only begotten," "the Eternal Generation of the Son" of Origen’s phrase. {Which is in the bosom of the Father} (\o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV\). The eternal relation of the Son with the Father like \proV ton qeon\ in verse #1. In #3:13 there is some evidence for \o wn en twi ouranwi\ used by Christ of himself while still on earth. The mystic sense here is that the Son is qualified to reveal the Father as Logos (both the Father in Idea and Expression) by reason of the continual fellowship with the Father. {He} (\ekinoV\). Emphatic pronoun referring to the Son. {Hath declared him} (\exhghsato\). First aorist (effective) middle indicative of \exhgeomai\, old verb to lead out, to draw out in narrative, to recount. Here only in John, though once in Luke’s Gospel (#Lu 24:35) and four times in (#Ac 10:8; 15:12,14; 21:19). This word fitly closes the Prologue in which the Logos is pictured in marvellous fashion as the Word of God in human flesh, the Son of God with the Glory of God in him, showing men who God is and what he is.
     
  17. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    You went and spoiled my test. That was for the anti-Trinitarians who claim that the Bible is mistranslated, when it contradicts their doctrine. If they are so knowledgeable about translating the Bible then they could try to translate that. I haven't encountered one that could. Have you figured out my signature line yet? It is not a Bible quote. But you can find it in Strong's if you are diligent
     
  18. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Sorry OS I just could'nt resist. Anyways nobody else was attempting to translate it. I will take a stab at your signature later. I won't be able to work on it until Friday.

    Later.
     
  19. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Another quick verse that shows Jesus being God.

    Hebrews 3:3 _For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
    4 _For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
     
  20. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    I have asked you before to correctly translate the Hebrew of Psalm 45:6 for us and you have admitted that you cannot read Hebrew or Greek. So you don’t have any personal knowledge, whatsoever, whether this, or any other verse in the Bible, is correctly translated. So you just pick and choose which verses in the Bible are correct and which verses are not.

    If Hebrew 1:8 is mistranslated, that means that the disciples who lived with Jesus for over three years, although they were Jews, did not know the Old Testament and wrote verses which were mistranslated. This also assumes that God did not have anything to do with the inspiration and writing of the Bible.


    Where is your proof that anything was mistranslated? Where is your proof that any words were left out? Where do the words “of our’ occur in any Hebrew manuscript? None of the verses you refer to, prove that Jesus was not God. I have posted proof from the Jewish encyclopedia that many Jews believed in a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit before Christianity. In 250 BC Jewish scholars translated the O.T. into Greek for Greek speaking Jews, in Egypt, the LXX reads exactly as it does in the K.J.V.. So if Psalm 45:6 is mistranslated, it was mistranslated by Jews 250 years before Jesus.

    (LXX) Psalm 45:6 (44:6) Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of righteousness.

    I don’t much care what you believe is accurate. I want proof and so far you haven’t posted any. What are these so-called “KNOWN and ACCEPTED truths” and where did they come from? Just like all other cults, such as J-Dubs, and Later Daze Ain’ts you believe the few out-of-context verses which seem to support your man made doctrine and ignore the verses which don’t.
    Excuse me, where in Isaiah does the prophecy state that the Messiah would be called "mighty God and everlasting Father?", “in the Bible, specifically?” The scripture says He will be called, you haven’t offered any proof whatsoever that He was never called that by anyone, at any time. The world hasn’t ended, so if there is any part of that, or any other, prophecy left unfulfilled, it still can be.

    False! In the Hebrew Isaiah only has one version. And if you read the Hebrew, which I know you can’t, you will know the truth. It is not mistranslated. The only other option is that your doctrine is wrong.

    Mwls-rv deyba rwbg la Uewy alp wms arqyw wmks-le hrvmh yhtw wnl-Ntn Nb wnl-dly dly-yk <9:5>

    ”the authorized King James Version was translated with a bias toward the DEITY of Jesus.” And of course we just have to accept Ed’s word that the KJV translators were biased. “The translators were biased! The verses were mistranslated! The translators left out words! The Bible is wrong but my doctrine is right! No proof! Just keep parroting the accusations over and over again.

    Where did these so-called “known and accepted TRUTHS” come from if not the Bible? In other words if a verse or passage contradicts your 1931 Manalo doctrine, we are just supposed to drink koolaid and believe you, without any proof.


    Again we just have to take Ed’s word for it that this translation is free of bias and the only correct one. Both the “J-Dubs” and the “Later Daze Ain’ts” have their own version of the Bible, which they claim is the only correct translation.

    The problem with this so-called translation is it changes the Hebrew, each of these are separate names, the word “is” is not present in the Hebrew, between “wonderful counselor” and “Almighty God”. The correct translation is, “Wonderful counselor, Almighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.”


    How do you know what the disciples called Jesus in private? The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Isaiah doesn’t say that the Messiah will be called that by His disciples. Using that logic we would have to say that Jesus and His disciples NEVER went to the bathroom, bathed, or changed clothes because those and many other things are never mentioned in scripture. John said that many things were not written in the scriptures.

    John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

    John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

    You just keep on ignoring the scriptures and what I post and keep on posting the same thing over and over again. Here are six passages, from my previous post, all of which call Jesus GodI Ignoring my posts will not change the truth.
     
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