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Are Trinitarians Christians?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Aug 22, 2002.

  1. YES

  2. NO

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  1. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by OldShepherd
    That's TRUE. The Bible does NOT teach that Jesus was identifying himself as God. Jesus simply said that before Abraham was, "I AM" which could also MEAN that before Abraham was, "I AM the anointed."

    You got the meaning of the verse WRONG OldShepherd. 

    What Jesus MEANT was that those who are INSIDE the church (those who BELIEVED Jesus and ENTERED - John 10:9 - the fold or church) may DIE yet they will LIVE again (John 11:25).

    The church that Christ built BECAME inactive soon AFTER apostle Paul died. It was replaced by the Catholic Church which TAUGHT doctrines that were NOT taught by Jesus and his apostles.It was NOT until July 27, 1914, in FULFILLMENT of prophecy, that the TRUE Church of Christ (Iglesia Ni Cristo) RE-EMERGED at a place and time ACCORDING to scripture, that TRUE doctrines of Christ were TAUGHT again.

    Which do you BELIEVE OldShepherd, the BIBLE or the WRITINGS of  what you call "early church Fathers?"  If these "early church writings" were of any value at all, why weren't they included in the  canonized Books of the Bible? After all, it was the Catholoc Church (composed of "early church Fathers") which, as you say, canonized the Bible. Have you thought about this?

    Now, if you put MORE relevance to what your "early church Fathers" wrote OVER the canonized Bible, then we really DON'T have a COMMON ground, don't we? It would be like talking to a Mormon whose beliefs are based more on the Book of Mormon than  on the Bible or a Jehovah's Witness whose beliefs are said to be based on the Bible but actually based on interpretations as published in their WatchTower magazine.

    The Plan of Salvation is God's and the Savior is Jesus. Why one would LISTEN to people OTHER than God or Jesus is beyond me!

    Ed
     
  2. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian



     :help:
     
  3. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
  4. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by LightBearer
    You know what we are talking about my friend. Yes, there are many fathers but there is only one "Father of Spirits" (Heb. 12:9). The Devil is called "father of lies" and the Bible specifically teaches that (John 8:44).  But it is NOT a fact that Jesus is called "eternal Father."  You are MISREPRESENTING the TRUTH.



    Are you referring to Jesus as the "Father of spiritually-begotten Christians?"



    A single translation in the face of thousands is ACCURATE if it CONFORMS with KNOWN and ACCEPTED truths. The majority translations of Isaiah 9:6 are NOT accurate because they CONTRADICT the TRUTH that NO MAN can be called "Father" (meaning Father of Spirits) as COMMANDED by our Lord and Savior. These translations ALSO go AGAINST Jesus' teaching that the FATHER (alone) is the ONLY true God (John 8:40).

    I do NOT need to quote Isaiah 9:5 and 7 because they do NOT have any bearing on the accuracy of Isaiah 9:6 of the Smith-Goodspeed Translation.

    I didn't realize that JWs CAN lie if confronted with the TRUTH. Isn't it true that JWs teach that Jesus is "everlasting Father?"

    Earlier you wrote:
    Aren't you in effect saying that "for a FACT" Jesus is "eternal Father?"

    What irks me is when people who PRETEND to have exclusivity to the TRUTH become LIARS when confronted with the truth.  Look at your post again and tell me if you aren't REALLY suggesting that Jesus is referred to as "Eternal Father."

    Does this mean that Jesus is LITERALLY a "life-giving spirit?" Certainly not! Jesus calls himself the "bread of life." He also calls himself the "water of life." Is Jesus LITERALLY bread and water? Do you agree with Catholics that the bread they eat is LITERALLY Christ's body?

    Now here comes that standard "symbolic" defense of JWs. Now you are saying that Jesus is a "symbolic" man. Jesus is NOT only referred to as MAN. He SAID it himself (John 8:40) . And the apostles TAUGHT it (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5).

    Jesus himself SAID that he is FLESH and BONES (Luke 24:39). God Himself SAID that MAN is FLESH (Genesis 6:3).

    I am NOT concerned about the angel Gabriel. He is a MESSENGER (angel) of God and God can make Gabriel anyway He wants to accomplish the purpose for which he is SENT. If the Bible says Gabriel is a MAN, so be it. And if at the next instance, the Bible says he is a spirit, I'll accept that too.

    But this does NOT affect my belief in what Jesus says about himself.

    Ed
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Phoenix
    What are you afraid of Phoenix? Why do you hide behind this link? I suggest you copy and paste what they say about the Iglesia Ni Cristo and let's discuss it here in the open.

    Ed
     
  6. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

    +37
    Christian
    Originally posted by edpobre....words are in Black

    Messengers words are in Indigo.

    Nobody is forcing you to post here Messenger. If you find this NONSENSE, stay out of it. But if you decide to stay, please keep your voice down.
    I like my voice and I like my colors...what something looks like doesn't matter the context is what matters...I would like for everyone to write a little bigger and a little brighter but that's not my mission.  Sorry that it offends you and others but you are reading to much into the colors and front. As far as being NONSENSE that is why I come here to try and end some of the NONSENSE and help others to understand one another a little better.


    Everyone is free to say what one wants as long as one can prove it with scripture. That's what this forum is all about.  I understand that "Christians" base their belief on the word of God and the word of God is the Bible. Salvation is by the grace of God and Jesus is the Savior. It is only wise that we ABIDE by what God and Jesus say, NOT on what a council of men says.
    Christians accept Jesus and try and walk beside him. We can learn from one another. If the trinitarian believes what the council of men say is supported by the Bible and it becomes their belief the worst they are is ignorant not non-Christian. If they choose to believe the council of men so they are accepted into the group then they may be worshiping men instead of God...but can we see there motives without seeing into their hearts?  God is the judge.


    You're WRONG Messenger. God has already DECIDED who is a Christian and who is not. The DISCIPLES of Christ were first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch (Acts 11:26). Thus, only DISCIPLES of Christ are CHRISTIANS. But who is a DISCIPLE of Christ. Again, God speaks. A DISCIPLE is one who BELIEVES in Jesus and ABIDES in his word (John 8:31).
    Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). A DISCIPLE is one who BELIEVES in Jesus and ABIDES  in these doctrines.

    And I believe many trinitarians do believe in Jesus and live a God pleasing life. We are all ignorant who is less ignorant ...does it matter? As long as we love God and love one another and accept Jesus and listen to the Holy Spirit within our heart read the Bible and pray. What is the Father? We see the Father through the Son. What is the Holy Spirit that is the voice in our heart that is from God. Jesus is from God right? The Holy Spirit is from God right? God is from what? God is what we can't explain it is impossible to comprehend and thus came the trinity doctrines. The doctrines are right in part. Jesus and God and  are one in one purpose one grand plan working together. God is above all there is only one God God the Father. But the Bible says God raised Jesus above. When you pray for Jesus to come into your heart do you pray to God or Jesus? Trinitarians BELIEVE and TEACH that Jesus is God IN ADDITION to being a MAN. This is a violation of God's COMMAND not to ADD to His word (Deut. 2:32). This is also OPPOSED to what Jesus TAUGHT. Apostle John wrote that anyone who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ DOES NOT have God (1 John 1:9).  Thus, according to the word of God, Trinitarians do NOT have God!
    Jesus is God in a spiritual sence. Jesus had the spirit of God and the Spirit is the truth. If we have the Spirit we have the truth. If we walk in Christ we are Christians. God is Love We must love. I read all of 1John 1 and don't see your point of trinitarians not being Christians.

    1John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

    Jesus never drove cars and probably never had cotton candy...so maybe we shouldn't either???

    Jesus didn't pray through himself he prayed directly to God but we can know God through Jesus because he lived his life God-like. I am not a Trinitarian but I understand their veiw and don't believe it to be Anti-Christian or Non-Christian...We don't have to have all the answers to be Christian we have to have LOVE!:)
    Am I saying this because I hate Trinitarians? No. I'm doing this in COMPLIANCE with God's COMMAND to "save others by pulling them out of the fire" (Jude 1:23).
    If that is what you believe you are doing good. But maybe it would help if you listened as well and understand they are not totally wrong and if they are walking in Christ they are Christians.
    Let me ask you Messenger. If you see your neighbor on his bike going 60 miles per hour down a road toward a river where the bridge used to be there, wouldn't you try to stop him from plunging right into the river? 
    I'd give my neighbor the knowledge I had and hope that he'd stop.
    Isn't that what LOVE is all about?
    Gen. 20:13  This is how you can show your love to me: Everywhere we go, say of me, "He is my brother."  On the cross Jesus prayed Father forgive them they know not what they do. So praying for others and sharing your knowledge with others would be good but to accuse them of not being Christians...I don't see any love in that.


     
     
  7. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    Ed:  You really need to check your tone,  calling people liars and deceivers and loosing your selfcontrol will not help.  Try and be peacable with all men. Rom 12:18 

    Then just quote Isaiah 9:6 in full please from Goodspeeds. In full, save me looking for an online translation.  Thank you.
     
  8. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

    +37
    Christian
    2 more cents either your for God or your against God. God wants us to bring His Children together. Ed to belong to an organization which trys and prove that trinitarians are not Christians just goes further into separating God's Children. Others to say non-trinitarians aren't Christians is the same. God is Love. Jesus didn't run around name calling and saying he was better than another. Jesus was Humble.  If we accept Jesus is the Son of God than our Spirit is true....If we say Jesus is God are we doomed...Show me the Scripture...you can't. We are to have no other God's but Jesus and God are one in Spirit.   I think time could be better spent leading the lost to Christ rather than leading the confussed to your state of confussion.

    sorry a little more than 2 cents but who's counting? :) Love and God Bless.
     
  9. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    Very well Ed,

    Lets start here:

    The pamphlet ends with this note Dear reader, it is, therefore, Gods command that we all should enter the church of Christ or Iglesia ni Cristo , in Philippine, if we want to enter the kingdom of heaven to enjoy eternal life."

    What of the apostles did they enter this church, was there even a church in ancient times in the Philippines? Obviously not.

    In the same pamphlet it says "To be certain of salvation, every member of the church of Christ must obey the doctrines he heard and received all the days of his life, "For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life" (Prov.6:23) Obey always is commendable but hardly realistic.
    <P align=justify>INC teaches that membership in their organization plus complete submission to the Executive Minister and the rest of the Church administration is the only way to be saved:
    <P align=justify>"Each member ... should submit himself to the Administration of the Church in order to be saved."(PASUGO, January 1976, p. 9)

    The following quotes confirm the INC requirement of total submission by all members.

    "Unity in the Iglesia Ni Cristo ... transcends and encompasses all aspects of the life of an Iglesia Ni Cristo......(PASUGO, January 1976, p. 5)

    "For opposing the Administration of the Church is tantamount to opposing not only Christ but also God."(PASUGO, January 1976, p. 190

    "So we should therefore demonstrate complete submission, obedience and loyalty to the Administration..." (PASUGO, January 1976, p.1
     
  10. TScott

    TScott Curmudgeon

    +145
    Non-Denom
    US-Democrat
    edpobre,

    &nbsp;

    You wrote:

    If you don't like your posts to be commented upon, don't post, period. Don't expect your FALSE beliefs to be taken, hook, line and sinker.

    First of all, I never said that I don't like my posts commented on.&nbsp; I simply said that you have no authority to determine if my beliefs or anyone elses beliefs are true or false.&nbsp; You don't.&nbsp; If you want to say that it is your opinion that my beliefs are false I would have no problem with it.


    As far as anyone taking my beliefs, hook line and sinker, as you say, I have not asked anyone to do so.&nbsp;

    Incidently, it is quite obvious you haven't a clue as to what my beliefs are and yet you make such speciuous comments.&nbsp; That is kind of puzzling, don't you think?&nbsp; I actually disagree with the Trinitarian claims, and have said so many times on these boards.&nbsp;


    I find it humorous how you demand everyone give you scriptural evidence and then when they do you invariably dismiss it.
     
  11. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    According to the info in the link Ed, only authorized ministers from your church can interpret scripture for you .. is this true ? and if so why
     
  12. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    Iglesia argues that in this verse Isaiah is referring to the "far east" and that this is the place where the "Church of Christ" will emerge in the last days. This point is constantly repeated in Iglesia literature: "The prophecy stated that God's children shall come from the far east" (Pasugo, March 1975, p.6).

    Could you please point me to the specific verses Ed ? I would like to read them and test the Spirits as i am taught.


    edit-forgot to paste the verse. :eek:
     
  13. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

    175
    +0


    Let me straighten it out. You can make any claim you like about three in one or one in three. The basic facts are the same. You believe in the deity of Christ, the deity of the Holy Spirit and the deity of the Father. Count all the deities and you end up with three. Three deities, three gods. No matter how you put that into a neat package, it remains the same.

    You misunderstand my descriptions. Your main argument is that all those verses don't show that YHWH isn't triune in nature. You made a nice effort, but alas, that wasn't what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is that the verse doesn't show that YHWH is triune in nature. The whole bible put together in context shows that YHWH has told us he is one, not two or three or whatever.

    If YHVH is triune in nature, then I would expect the triune nature to be used constantly and if not constantly, very often. But it isn't. All you have are some scattered verses that show something else, but twisted to support a triune-god.

    Not ignored, but refuted you interpretation of it. Those verses don't show that God is triune.

    More misinterpretations. You will notice that Gen 1.26, the rest of creation is made before God starts talking using 'us' etc. Elohim here is addressing the Celestial Host, the Cherubeem, and in the last case, Isaiah as well.

    The glaring fact remains. If God was indeed triune, you would expect this kind of language constantly.

    But you already know the answer, you just choose to reject it.

    More interpretations if your specifically looking for a trinity. But you can't find one verse that God actually calims to be a trinity.
     
  14. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
    +0
    Just a couple of verses in my closing remarks here! P/N/B/

    "We are of God: he that [knowest God, heareth us]; he that [is not of God,
    heareth not us]. Hereby [know we the Spirit of truth, and the 's'pirit of error]." 1 John 4:6

    REGARDLESS of which one 'i' am, this settles it for me, for now at least. If 'others' are surrendered to the [will of the Master], lets hear from you on subjects that are not a hobby horse VAIN doctrine? This is the way the Master's Word handels it:

    "But [avoid] foolish questions, and [genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law;] for they are [unprofitable and VAIN]. A man that [is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject]. Knowing that he [is that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself]".
    Titus 3:9-10 in part & emphasis----P/N/B/
     
  15. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
    Married
    I have noticed a lot of name calling and personal attacks going on in this thread. If I see any more of that sort of thing, I will close this thread down.

    I am advising each member who has called another member "LIAR", or other such inflammatory attacks, to GO BACK AND EDIT OUT YOUR OWN POSTS. This board does not allow members to belittle other members with such inflammatory language.



    Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"
    1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.
     
  16. Sean R. Sherman

    Sean R. Sherman Junior Member

    20
    +0
    Pentecostal
    If Jesus is not God then why did he get pursecuted for calling himself God?
     
  17. Sean R. Sherman

    Sean R. Sherman Junior Member

    20
    +0
    Pentecostal
    I agree with Phoenix. (1 john 2:27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
    It is the holy spirit That gives revelation of scripture not man's understanding. (Prov 14:12) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Prov 16:25)There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. I follow not man written Doctrine but the doctrine of the inspired ones that fortell of our own revelation of the Divinity of Christ. Can Christ be divided? A perefect ritorical question asked by a strict follower of Christ, Paul. The answer is NO christ cannot be divided. He can only do what he sees the Father do. Because the Flesh of Jesus can only do what the spirit of God in him, wills him to do. To be carnaly minded is Death but to be spiritually minded is Life and peace so open thine eyes to the Spiritual world for what you see through the Spirit is more true. Because We earlly see through a glass darkly. And so it is by the Holy Spirit that ALL things are taught and not by a man's own understanding of which he declares that even he doesn't understand, such as the trinity.
     
  18. Sean R. Sherman

    Sean R. Sherman Junior Member

    20
    +0
    Pentecostal
    John 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the NAME of the only begotten Son of God.
     
  19. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Well, Im glad we have you to correct all of the experts that spend their lives on the subject of scripture interpretations.

    :rolleyes:
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Messenger
    If that's what you like so be it. It does not bother me one bit.&nbsp;Okay, so you like to this NONSENSE afterall. But I warn you, this forum is NOT for onion-skinned people.There is a saying, "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!"

    You still don't get it Messenger. What you are saying is FALSE. Believing Jesus is NOT enough and living a God pleasing life does NOT prove that one is a CHRISTIAN. Jesus SAID: "But why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord' and do NOT do the things I say" (Luke 6:46)?

    A CHRISTIAN is one who BELIEVES Jesus and OBEYS his teaching. Trinitarians do NOT obey Jeus' teaching regarding himself and regarding the ONLY true God. They simply are NOT Christians. God EXHORTS Trinitarians to "come out of her, lest they share in her sins and receive of her plagues (Rev. 18:4).

    As I said earlier, "walking in Christ" does NOT make one a CHRISTIAN. To LOVE the children of God is to LOVE God. And to LOVE God is to KEEP His commandments (1 John 5:2-3). God COMMANDS people to LISTEN to His Son (Matt. 17:5).&nbsp;If you LOVE God, you MUST obey this COMMAND. And if you OBEYED this command, you wouldn't even THINK that Jesus is God!. Re Trinitarians NOT having God, I stand corrected. It should have been 2 John 1:9.&nbsp;

    Again I say, "walking in Christ" does NOT make one a Christian. This is NOT in the Bible. Chriustians are DISCIPLES of Christ (Acts 11:26). And DISCIPLES of Christ BELIEVE in Jesus and ABIDE in his word (John 8:31). I cannot compromise what God says. Trinitrarians do NOT abide in the&nbsp;teaching of Christ. They are NOT disciples of Christ. They are NOT Christians.&nbsp;

    What you are saying is NOT supported by the Bible. That's&nbsp;how&nbsp; the "natural man" understands what LOVE means. To LOVE a brother is to LOVE God. And to LOVE God is to KJEEP His commandments (1 John 5:2-3).

    God COMMANDS His children to&nbsp;SAVE people by "pulling them out of the fire" (Jude 1:23). Opening people's eyes to the FALSEHOOD of the Trinity is one way of saving people from eternal&nbsp;destruction.
    Ed
     
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