Are they saved?

FreeGrace2

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and the disobedient and the rebellious do not enter the kingdom of God
Could you provide any verse that supports your opinion here? Thanks.

..so back to the gospel we go .. they must repent .
Please find a Greek lexicon, study the Greek word for 'repent' and then get back to me on what you find.

they must cease from doing evil deeds in order to do righteousness .if they dont , they have not yet repented and if they have not yet repented they are not yet saved -you simply cannot separate belief and obedience nor can you separate faith from action .
Please consult a Greek lexicon and study the words for yourself.
 
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Alithis

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I think you misunderstand what the "will of the Father" is. Jesus told us in John 6:40 exactly what the "will of the Father" is.

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

His will is eternal security for those who have believed.


This is all assumption and opinion. And unsubstantiated. Find a Greek lexicon, study the word for "believe" and then get back to me on what you find.
and you really need t stop plucking out single sentance and building theologies on them ..you have to put that verse in with everything he says or you will just have a wheelbarrel full of opposes text
i mean for instance yes he did say the verse you just quoted .. but he also says if you love me you obey me .. he says both he says that belief IS obedience they are not separated his word is not separated .stop dissecting it to gather unto yourself teaching pleasing to the ear.
sure he givrs us eternal salvation .. and we dont get it until he returns . after he returns and we are with him we shall be eternally safe .. but many who think they are already will be cast into outer darkness at his coming .. so dont say to yourselves "we have this verse and that verse .. for these verses point to obedience to the lord Jesus .
 
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Alithis

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Could you provide any verse that supports your opinion here? Thanks.


Please find a Greek lexicon, study the Greek word for 'repent' and then get back to me on what you find.


Please consult a Greek lexicon and study the words for yourself.
the word repent is in both hebrew and greek and has a wide spread of meaning ..in greek it means to think again and change your mind about God .. thus stop disobeying him and start obeying him.
- if I always drink coke ..then i learn that coke is not good for me . i may "accept " the information knowing it to be correct . but repentance is when i change my mind about drinking it and start drinking water instead - if i do not change my actions then i display that, while i have accepted the information is there -i have not believed or had any faith in the information .because both believe and faith are verbs . they are not only what we have but what we DO based upon what we truly believe .

this is how many people (to many) are treating the good news of Jesus .they accepted the information but do not then take action based upon it because they do not really believe it .
for the same information says that God is going to cast the rebellious into hell fire ... any one that truly believes that, will in great fear cry out to God for mercy and CHANGE their actions accordingly upon receiving his forgiveness .-if they do not they neither believe nor will they be saved


in Hebrew it means to turn again from evil deeds and do good deeds. there is no middle ground ..you dont get to consistently practice both .. for those one say but lord lord we did this and this .. and he says depart from me you workers of iniquity ..they were disobediently doing both.

-you ask me to provide scripture supporting that the disobedient and rebellious do not enter the kingdom of God and you call that "my opinion" -are seriously asking ?
im sure you well know the list of those who wont enter and tell me .. can you be in that list by obeying the lord Jesus ? nope .
but the lord Jesus also told us what we ARE to be doing . (and it excludes acts of sin) so if one is not doing what he says we ARE to do they also are being disobedient. to be disobedient when you know what he has said to do -is to rebel and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft because you are manipulating your own will over the will of God .
 
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FreeGrace2

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and you really need t stop plucking out single sentance and building theologies on them
I think you need to BELIEVE every sentence in the Bible.

..you have to put that verse in with everything he says or you will just have a wheelbarrel full of opposes text
No you don't.

i mean for instance yes he did say the verse you just quoted .. but he also says if you love me you obey me
Do you not understand a command when you see one?

.. he says both he says that belief IS obedience they are not separated his word is not separated .stop dissecting it to gather unto yourself teaching pleasing to the ear.
When are you going to include verses that support your claims (opinions)? Where is the verse that says that belief IS obedience?

sure he givrs us eternal salvation .. and we dont get it until he returns .
Do you not believe what Jesus said in these 2 verses?
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

I hope you noticed the PRESENT TENSE for possessing eternal life.

But, if you did, let's examine another verse:

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

I hope you noticed that God didn't give us the promise of eternal life (someday), but the ACTUAL GIFT. And also notice the aorist tense, similar to our PAST TENSE.

When a person believes in Christ for salvation, they HAVE eternal life.

after he returns and we are with him we shall be eternally safe
OK, so you really don't believe all that Jesus said. He said those who believe possess eternal life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life, and that they shall never perish. John 5:24 and 10:28.

.. but many who think they are already will be cast into outer darkness at his coming .. so dont say to yourselves "we have this verse and that verse .. for these verses point to obedience to the lord Jesus .
OK, so you aren't impressed with the verses that refute your opinions. Got it.

But, the reality is that we DO have these verses about eternal security.

Sad that you have chosen not to believe them.
 
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FreeGrace2

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the word repent is in both hebrew and greek and has a wide spread of meaning ..in greek it means to think again and change your mind about God .. thus stop disobeying him and start obeying him.
- if I always drink coke ..then i learn that coke is not good for me . i may "accept " the information knowing it to be correct . but repentance is when i change my mind about drinking it and start drinking water instead - if i do not change my actions then i display that, while i have accepted the information is there -i have not believed or had any faith in the information
No, it only means you haven't done the right thing. The Greek word for 'repent' does mean to change the mind. But there are those who know the right thing to do but just are too lazy, or etc to do it. They believe it but fail to act on it.

because both believe and faith are verbs .
I would like to introduce you to a dictionary, so you can look up each word. "believe" is the action (verb), and "faith" is the object (noun).

iow, what I believe is my faith. Or, my faith is what I believe. I believe the Christian faith.

this is how many people (to many) are treating the good news of Jesus .they accepted the information but do not then take action based upon it because they do not really believe it .
This sentence is conflicted. To "accept the information" does mean to believe it. The opposite of "accepting the information" is to "not accept the information", meaning to NOT believe it.

ie: Arminians claim that salvation can be lost. I do not accept that information.

Jesus said those who believe possess (right now) eternal life (John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13) and shall never perish (John 10:28). I accept that information.

-you ask me to provide scripture supporting that the disobedient and rebellious do not enter the kingdom of God and you call that "my opinion" -are seriously asking ?
Dead serious. Do you have any?

im sure you well know the list of those who wont enter and tell me .. can you be in that list by obeying the lord Jesus ? nope .
Is this your final answer?

This demonstrates that you have no such verse. As I knew.

I, otoh, do have verses that actually say what I believe. But then, you've already noted that you aren't interested in "single sentences". Whatever that means.

but the lord Jesus also told us what we ARE to be doing .
Yes, He did, and NOT for ultimately entering heaven.

(and it excludes acts of sin) so if one is not doing what he says we ARE to do they also are being disobedient. to be disobedient when you know what he has said to do -is to rebel and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft because you are manipulating your own will over the will of God .
Did Jesus die for every sin, or just a partial list of sins? Again, dead serious.
 
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Alithis

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I think you need to BELIEVE every sentence in the Bible.


No you don't.


Do you not understand a command when you see one?


When are you going to include verses that support your claims (opinions)? Where is the verse that says that belief IS obedience?


Do you not believe what Jesus said in these 2 verses?
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

I hope you noticed the PRESENT TENSE for possessing eternal life.

But, if you did, let's examine another verse:

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

I hope you noticed that God didn't give us the promise of eternal life (someday), but the ACTUAL GIFT. And also notice the aorist tense, similar to our PAST TENSE.

When a person believes in Christ for salvation, they HAVE eternal life.


OK, so you really don't believe all that Jesus said. He said those who believe possess eternal life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life, and that they shall never perish. John 5:24 and 10:28.


OK, so you aren't impressed with the verses that refute your opinions. Got it.

But, the reality is that we DO have these verses about eternal security.

Sad that you have chosen not to believe them.
the command to believe ... is only adhered to by obedience
 
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Alithis

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No, it only means you haven't done the right thing. The Greek word for 'repent' does mean to change the mind. But there are those who know the right thing to do but just are too lazy, or etc to do it. They believe it but fail to act on it.


I would like to introduce you to a dictionary, so you can look up each word. "believe" is the action (verb), and "faith" is the object (noun).

iow, what I believe is my faith. Or, my faith is what I believe. I believe the Christian faith.


This sentence is conflicted. To "accept the information" does mean to believe it. The opposite of "accepting the information" is to "not accept the information", meaning to NOT believe it.

ie: Arminians claim that salvation can be lost. I do not accept that information.

Jesus said those who believe possess (right now) eternal life (John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13) and shall never perish (John 10:28). I accept that information.


Dead serious. Do you have any?


Is this your final answer?

This demonstrates that you have no such verse. As I knew.

I, otoh, do have verses that actually say what I believe. But then, you've already noted that you aren't interested in "single sentences". Whatever that means.


Yes, He did, and NOT for ultimately entering heaven.


Did Jesus die for every sin, or just a partial list of sins? Again, dead serious.
actionless faith .. is dead, meaningless .
 
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Danthemailman

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John the baptist speaking by the Holy Spirit sums it up completely -he says :
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.."

he very pointedly does NOT say he who believes has life he who doesn't believe does not . NOPE he says he who believes in the son has life and he who does not obey the son ..is under the wrath of God .
because
there is NO separation between belief and obedience, they are one and the same thing .
you will see it soon enough ... it took me quite some years .i used to argue quite the opposite to what i'm now saying . but the lord showed me :)
I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

Although "choosing to believe" is "an act of obedience," in which Paul calls it "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16) yet belief and obedience are not one and the same. To believe is to have faith in, to trust in. Obedience which follows is works. We are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).
 
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FreeGrace2

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the command to believe ... is only adhered to by obedience
No it isn't and you haven't proven your point nor supported it from Scripture.

Unbelievers must believe the gospel to be saved.

Believers must obey God's commands to be in fellowship and bear fruit.

Since believers are commanded to obey, it is clear to objective people that they are different.
 
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I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works.
But the really subtle ones, the "hard to detect" ones(work salvation proponents) say," You MUST have obedience/works. If not, you really were not saved."..........They say the same thing as the worker for salvation, they just hide it with, " You really were not saved, because you didn't WORK."

Thus............making salvation by works, just subtle about it.

" We aren't saved by works! But if we don't have works, we really were not saved." Simply amazing to me that smart,logical people can't see they are saying the SAME thing.

Faith ALONE in Christ ALONE..........saved. Period.
 
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LightLoveHope

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I was taught that if you believe your works will save you, you are not saved even if you believe that Jesus existed and that he is lord.

The reason I got was that they didn't have faith in him, that he alone saves. They didn't believe his death on the cross was sufficient for salvation basically.

So is this true that Faith+Works=Salvation theory damns someone? But they believed, this topic gets really confusing.

So someone has to strictly believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose on the third day to be saved, anything else added damns them like if they add works in order to be saved aswell?

I'm not sure how this makes sense.

If being a believer is holding a ticket to heaven, then faith is all we are.
Except when you start to question what that faith actually is. Who is Jesus?
What aspects to you need to accept as being true? How does intellectual and
emotional understanding differ and have to agree? What things do you need to
do to show you actually believe and are not just applying a formula for a response?

If one set of beliefs nullify the effect of another set of beliefs, you will need the
belief police to see who passed the belief test. Is it a prayer, a book on reads,
certain words one speaks, places one goes to? Anyone can read a book, but
believing it is shown how?

Belief is only belief when a set situations outcome moves forward because of
actions, things done. Abraham believed God and it was reconned as righteousness.

"Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." Gen 22:12
 
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LightLoveHope

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But the really subtle ones, the "hard to detect" ones(work salvation proponents) say," You MUST have obedience/works. If not, you really were not saved."..........They say the same thing as the worker for salvation, they just hide it with, " You really were not saved, because you didn't WORK."

Thus............making salvation by works, just subtle about it.

" We aren't saved by works! But if we don't have works, we really were not saved." Simply amazing to me that smart,logical people can't see they are saying the SAME thing.

Faith ALONE in Christ ALONE..........saved. Period.

We are saved by believing in Christ, believing what He tells us to do, and doing it.

There are some who say I believe Christ, but His eternal words are not for me, they
were for the pharisees and hypocrites who were trying to earn their salvation, and
so are doomed to hell. Except these same people forget, before Christ died there
was no cross, the only way to be "saved" was to be a Jew.

Some will say Jesus and the cross saved everyone from sin, but not disbelief.
Except this is just a way of excusing Jesus's words and staying in unrepentant
sin and rebellion.

The sinful heart will never let go, until we bow the knee and accept salvation
and the Kingship of Christ. It is the work of sanctification and transformation
that leads to heaven.

For sinners who stay in their sin unrepentant and in rebellion, when they meet
Jesus how can He change them if they refuse to change as much then as they
do now? Yes Jesus would love to make them righteous, except the fire to testing
will just burn up all that they are and leave nothing behind showing it was just
wishful thinking of the lost and empty.

The reason why sinners will knash their teeth, because all they are is lost, and
nothing can be done to change this reality. So repent and get right before God
before He reveals to truth of where your heart really lies.

Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. Matt 3:8
 
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Danthemailman

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I was taught that if you believe your works will save you, you are not saved even if you believe that Jesus existed and that he is lord.

The reason I got was that they didn't have faith in him, that he alone saves. They didn't believe his death on the cross was sufficient for salvation basically.

So is this true that Faith+Works=Salvation theory damns someone? But they believed, this topic gets really confusing.

So someone has to strictly believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose on the third day to be saved, anything else added damns them like if they add works in order to be saved aswell?

I'm not sure how this makes sense.
If someone is trusting in their works to save them, then they are not trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ to save them. Salvation is through faith in Christ and not faith in Christ + works. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed (Romans 3:24-28).

Even the demons believe that Jesus existed, is the Lord and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" yet they are not saved. In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," yet they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

It's not enough to merely believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." We must trust completely in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation in order to be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16).

Salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). To believe anything else is to miss salvation. Then we have those who cry out -- "but faith without works is dead." In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:
 
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FreeGrace2

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If being a believer is holding a ticket to heaven, then faith is all we are.
No it's not.

We are:
justified Rom 3
born again of imperishable seed 1 Pet 1:23
possess eternal life John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11,13
adopted Rom 8:23
God's children John 1:12
new creatures 2 Cor 5:17

Except when you start to question what that faith actually is. Who is Jesus?
What aspects to you need to accept as being true? How does intellectual and
emotional understanding differ and have to agree? What things do you need to
do to show you actually believe and are not just applying a formula for a response?
These are good questions, and ones that very believer must fully understand.

For faith to be saving, it requires 2 components.
1. object of faith. The Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God (meaning He is Deity).
2. goal or purpose of faith. Being saved from the lake of fire because of what He did on the cross on your behalf.

Belief is only belief when a set situations outcome moves forward because of
actions, things done. Abraham believed God and it was reconned as righteousness.
I've not see that word before; "reconned". Please define. The Bible says our faith is counted, credited as righteousness.

"Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." Gen 22:12
Do you think this verse suggests that God doesn't know everything, and only by our actions learns about some things?
 
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FreeGrace2

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We are saved by believing in Christ, believing what He tells us to do, and doing it.
You were doing just fine until you added after the first one, "we are saved by believing in Christ". The other 2 things are commands to be followed AFTER we are saved. Neither of them are required for salvation. And there are no verses to support such a claim.

There are some who say I believe Christ, but His eternal words are not for me, they were for the pharisees and hypocrites who were trying to earn their salvation, and
so are doomed to hell. Except these same people forget, before Christ died there
was no cross, the only way to be "saved" was to be a Jew.
Apparently you never read the apostle Paul's testimony.

Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ

Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.

Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]

Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Some will say Jesus and the cross saved everyone from sin, but not disbelief.
Except this is just a way of excusing Jesus's words and staying in unrepentant
sin and rebellion.
Such people are quite wrong. The Bible says that Jesus Christ died "once for all" regarding the sins of everyone. It is not any sin that casts people into hell. It's the fact that their names are not in the book of life, according to Rev 20:15.

This is not to justify or defend the Calvinistic doctrine of election, because the Bible never says that anyone has been elected to salvation.

Believing is the sole condition for salvation. Those who believe possess eternal life (John 10:28). Those who don't, don't have eternal life.

Possession of eternal life is the ONLY WAY one will not perish in the lake of fire.
 
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LightLoveHope

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You were doing just fine until you added after the first one, "we are saved by believing in Christ". The other 2 things are commands to be followed AFTER we are saved. Neither of them are required for salvation. And there are no verses to support such a claim.


Apparently you never read the apostle Paul's testimony.

Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ

Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.

Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]

Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.


Such people are quite wrong. The Bible says that Jesus Christ died "once for all" regarding the sins of everyone. It is not any sin that casts people into hell. It's the fact that their names are not in the book of life, according to Rev 20:15.

This is not to justify or defend the Calvinistic doctrine of election, because the Bible never says that anyone has been elected to salvation.

Believing is the sole condition for salvation. Those who believe possess eternal life (John 10:28). Those who don't, don't have eternal life.

Possession of eternal life is the ONLY WAY one will not perish in the lake of fire.

"Possession of eternal life is the ONLY WAY one will not perish in the lake of fire."

I understand the position you are taking, but it is just unreal.
It presupposes a different reason for salvation and relationship with Jesus than the
one I know and experience.

The difficulty I see with your theology, is it relies on taking the words of Jesus
and ignoring the majority of its contents, and using salvation as an excuse to
ignore the implications of righteous walking.

Jesus and His gospel is founded upon Gods love for mankind to walk in His
ways empowered by the Holy Spirit and His word alive in our hearts.
The fact that all those who take your position seem to consider every religious
person as an enemy, evil, doomed to hell, makes me suggest denial of sin and
its effects is core to your emotional being. I walk the way I do because I know
Jesus loves and to walk in sin would be to deny that love and its reality in my
heart. Now for me to say such things should bring joy to your heart, yet it
apparently does not, so we are different.

I just praise Jesus for the work He is doing and continues to do in my heart.
It is in discipleship, transformation and love that I am transformed for one
state of glory to the next, halleluyah. Praise God for His love and sacrifice
on the cross to set us all free.
 
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FreeGrace2

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"Possession of eternal life is the ONLY WAY one will not perish in the lake of fire."

I understand the position you are taking, but it is just unreal.
Sad that what the Bible says is considered "unreal".

It presupposes a different reason for salvation and relationship with Jesus than the one I know and experience.
Please explain what you are talking about. There are NO presuppositions in my theology. Just what the Bible SAYS.

The difficulty I see with your theology, is it relies on taking the words of Jesus
and ignoring the majority of its contents, and using salvation as an excuse to
ignore the implications of righteous walking.
I think you are quite confused. There is nothing wrong with "taking the words of Jesus" in the first place. what He said is what COUNTS.

Second, you're going to HAVE to prove that I have ignored "contents", which probably you meant "context". So, I'll going to give you a chance to prove your point.

I quote John 10:28 a lot. Now, please look through the entire context and prove that Jesus didn't really mean that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Third, how in the world could anyone "use salvation as an excuse" for anything???

That doesn't even make sense to me. So, please rephrase what you were thinking.

Jesus and His gospel is founded upon Gods love for mankind to walk in His
ways empowered by the Holy Spirit and His word alive in our hearts.
Agreed.

The fact that all those who take your position seem to consider every religious
person as an enemy, evil, doomed to hell, makes me suggest denial of sin and
its effects is core to your emotional being.
Where did you get this corny idea? What you "seem" to think about anyone else's position is just preposterous.

I evaluate every poster's position from the Word of God. iow, what they say against what the Bible says. It's that simple.

I walk the way I do because I know Jesus loves and to walk in sin would be to deny that love and its reality in my heart.
Don't forget that believers are commanded to avoid sin and there are negative consequences for a lifestyle of sin. Big ones, but just NOT losing salvation.

Now for me to say such things should bring joy to your heart, yet it apparently does not, so we are different.
Where did I express less than joy at these words of yours? This is the first time I recall that you've posted them. And I fully AGREE with this. But you, or anyone else, who claims that a saved person can lose their salvation has simply gone off the rails doctrinally.

I just praise Jesus for the work He is doing and continues to do in my heart.
As you should. And every other believer. :)

It is in discipleship, transformation and love that I am transformed for one
state of glory to the next, halleluyah. Praise God for His love and sacrifice
on the cross to set us all free.
Right. This is spiritual growth, or the process of sanctification.
 
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LightLoveHope

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You were doing just fine until you added after the first one, "we are saved by believing in Christ".

There is an assumption in the above statement. That in the eye of the commentator that I am correct in one area and wrong in another. I sincerely wish in a few sentences a walk with Christ can be summarised correctly. This propensity to judgement is damaging.

What matters in love? The truths we hold, the way we live, the love we share? At what point can someone call us out fairly and be right, or too soon and fall into the trap of judgementalism?

For me I try and listen to peoples story and way of expressing everything, because I am often wrong and too hasty, and find the way they express their heart of Jesus different to mine, yet we are brothers and sisters in Christ. So when someone wishes to correct me so quickly, and disown my heart and walk in Christ, I am saddened and fearful that the enemy is at work here.

Simply put are we called to righteous walking, to walk as Jesus walked, to be Holy, pure, without fault or blemish? Yes like all children we might stumble and fall, need to pick ourselves up and walk on in faith and love, but are we called to these things?

If not are we called therefore to sinful walking, to be part of the world and friends with those who hate God and His ways? It strikes me this is a binary choice, reflected by the whole of scripture.

Do you want to stand before the King of Kings and justify your compromises before Him on that day or humble yourself and become open to His Spirit and word to lead you into life and His ways?
 
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LightLoveHope

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"There are NO presuppositions in my theology. Just what the Bible SAYS."

God bless you. My view is simple, it is the direction we are walking in that matters, and listening to our Shepherd.

The problem in all our lives is ourselves and how our views distort us from what is really going on. So I know we all live on presuppositions, which is the basis of our existence and how we face each day, the first one being for a believer is Jesus loves us.

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good Rom 12:21

Do we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within who is greater than who is in the world or are we defeated vessels without hope?
 
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