Are they saved?

[FreeGrace2]

As such we speak of "objective justification" and "subjective justification".

When James wrote 2:24 - "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.", he was speaking from man's perspective, which is the context for all of ch 2.

The Bible presents 2 viewpoints or perspectives; God's and man's.

Human and Divine perspective

Romans 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
This is about the perspective of everyone.

Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
This is about the perspective of both God and humans.

2 Cor 5:12 - We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
This is about the perspective of others.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.
This is about perspective of the Lord and of man.

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
This is about perspective of outsiders.

1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
This is directly related to James 2:15-18.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
This is about perspective of outsiders. To “win the respect of outsiders” is to be justified in the eyes of outsiders.

iow, the behavior of believers determines whether they are justified in the eyes of others, who can't see their faith, but can see their works.

If the works don't line up with the confession, most people error and conclude the person isn't "really" saved. In fact, they are saved but hypocrites. That's what v.14 is about: saving the person from the charge of hypocrisy.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.
Acts15:5

So your a believer, but a SECT of the Pharisees......THE very next verses:
Acts 15~~6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

 

[stephen pollard]

So your a believer, but a SECT of the Pharisees......THE very next verses:
Acts 15~~6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

The church accepted as believers people who said gentiles must be circumcised and obey the law of Moses. The same as God accepts people today who have errant views, for how do you know their heart? I dare say it is quite possible that even you have a few errant views also

 

[ViaCrucis]

When James wrote 2:24 - "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.", he was speaking from man's perspective, which is the context for all of ch 2.

The Bible presents 2 viewpoints or perspectives; God's and man's.

Human and Divine perspective

Romans 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
This is about the perspective of everyone.

Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
This is about the perspective of both God and humans.

2 Cor 5:12 - We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
This is about the perspective of others.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.
This is about perspective of the Lord and of man.

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
This is about perspective of outsiders.

1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
This is directly related to James 2:15-18.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
This is about perspective of outsiders. To “win the respect of outsiders” is to be justified in the eyes of outsiders.

iow, the behavior of believers determines whether they are justified in the eyes of others, who can't see their faith, but can see their works.

If the works don't line up with the confession, most people error and conclude the person isn't "really" saved. In fact, they are saved but hypocrites. That's what v.14 is about: saving the person from the charge of hypocrisy.

In Lutheranism we speak of Coram Deo (us before God) and Coram Hominibus (us before other human beings). This flows from the dichotomy between Law and Gospel. As redeemed sinners we are to understand ourselves before God solely through the Gospel--what God has done for us, that we are forgiven, justified, and are adopted as children and heirs. The other dimension of the Christian life is the life lived before our fellow man, which is to be understood through the Law. This is the answer to the question of "saved for what?" which Paul answers in Ephesians 2:10,

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

The place of good works is not for God's benefit, nor for our own (as though our position, status, or place before God can be improved by our efforts); but rather for our neighbor. We have been saved for good works, to walk in accordance with the new obedience we have received. To put it another way, God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does. Our neighbor is hungry, so we should feed them; our neighbor is thirsty, give them drink; our neighbor is naked, clothe them.

The point of the good works is neither to earn brownie points with God, nor garner the laud of others--but simply to commit ourselves to a life of sacrifice and service in imitation of our Lord Jesus, to have the same attitude and mind in us that was in Him. He, who though very and truly God the eternal Son, did not regard His Deity and equality with God something to be exploited, but poured Himself out in humility and sacrifice, becoming a human servant, and in righteous obedience gave Himself entirely, even to the point of death on the cross. So it should be with us, to carry our cross as slaves, servants, living sacrifices in imitation of Christ our Lord.

It is in this that the Apostle tells us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Not in the Coram Deo, but in the Coram Hominbus--our lives as poured out, emptied, into humility and sacrifice, in love for others.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan the deacon]

That's what I was wondering. Is someone really destined to hell for believing they had to do good works along with believing to attain salvation instead of faith alone?

If they believe good works have a saving power they do not properly believe on Christ.
We do good works because we are saved not to get saved,lest any man should boast.

 

[Dan the deacon]

In Lutheranism we speak of Coram Deo (us before God) and Coram Hominibus (us before other human beings). This flows from the dichotomy between Law and Gospel. As redeemed sinners we are to understand ourselves before God solely through the Gospel--what God has done for us, that we are forgiven, justified, and are adopted as children and heirs. The other dimension of the Christian life is the life lived before our fellow man, which is to be understood through the Law. This is the answer to the question of "saved for what?" which Paul answers in Ephesians 2:10,

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

The place of good works is not for God's benefit, nor for our own (as though our position, status, or place before God can be improved by our efforts); but rather for our neighbor. We have been saved for good works, to walk in accordance with the new obedience we have received. To put it another way, God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does. Our neighbor is hungry, so we should feed them; our neighbor is thirsty, give them drink; our neighbor is naked, clothe them.

The point of the good works is neither to earn brownie points with God, nor garner the laud of others--but simply to commit ourselves to a life of sacrifice and service in imitation of our Lord Jesus, to have the same attitude and mind in us that was in Him. He, who though very and truly God the eternal Son, did not regard His Deity and equality with God something to be exploited, but poured Himself out in humility and sacrifice, becoming a human servant, and in righteous obedience gave Himself entirely, even to the point of death on the cross. So it should be with us, to carry our cross as slaves, servants, living sacrifices in imitation of Christ our Lord.

It is in this that the Apostle tells us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Not in the Coram Deo, but in the Coram Hominbus--our lives as poured out, emptied, into humility and sacrifice, in love for others.

-CryptoLutheran

This would be hard to believe if we did not know that our earthly flesh does not enter heaven.

 

[Alithis]

We are saved by grace, through faith (mere believing), and not of works. Eph 2:8,9

i could not let this go unchallenged - mere belief ? there is no such thing .all belief is proven only by action preformed. no action = no beleif ( i should add the question -by "works do you mean actions of the law ? for these were of circumcision of the flesh and the sacrificing of bulls and goats etc .. it is true that by doing those actions no man is justified )

but "believe" is a verb .
Faith also is a verb .. faith is the action one takes when one truly believes something . you believed if you push the button on the laptop it will start up and you can post here - it does not mater how long you sit there claiming to have a "mere belief" -that laptop will not start up until your belief becomes an action .
so because you believe pushing the power button will make it start - you take the action ,you reach out your hand and push the button and .. it starts up . amazing - NOW you've proven you believe .- try and say it is not so without lying .

there is no such thing as a mere inactive belief - there is also no such thing as an action-less faith .

so when he writes ... for by grace are you saved THROUGH FAITH .. he is saying God has graciously granted you the opportunity of salvation (you could not earn that by anything you Do -in fact he done it before you were born).. and you get to partake of that salvation by what you now ,as a response of a clear conscience, DO because you believe him .-Faith , being the action you take based upon what you believe . no action = no faith ... No faith = no belief .. No belief = no salvation.

the biggest issue with the topic is the dissecting of it it parts... dont Do that ..its not in parts it is a whole . one is never separated from the other .

John the baptist speaking by the Holy Spirit sums it up completely -he says :
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.."

he very pointedly does NOT say he who believes has life he who doesn't believe does not . NOPE he says he who believes in the son has life and he who does not obey the son ..is under the wrath of God .
because
there is NO separation between belief and obedience, they are one and the same thing .
you will see it soon enough ... it took me quite some years .i used to argue quite the opposite to what i'm now saying . but the lord showed me .

 

[FreeGrace2]

The church accepted as believers people who said gentiles must be circumcised and obey the law of Moses. The same as God accepts people today who have errant views, for how do you know their heart? I dare say it is quite possible that even you have a few errant views also

In fact, the church leaders debated the problem and concluded that they were WRONG.

Acts 15:6-11.

iow, they weren't tolerated. They were corrected. I'm sure those who didn't like it left the church.

And we are reminded of such people in Acts 20:30,31-
30 Even from your own number men will arise and disstort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

That's why I post. To refute those who have distorted the truth and push their own opinions as Scripture.

 

[stephen pollard]

In fact, the church leaders debated the problem and concluded that they were WRONG.

Acts 15:6-11.

Absolutely! But they had still regarded them as believers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In Lutheranism we speak of Coram Deo (us before God) and Coram Hominibus (us before other human beings). This flows from the dichotomy between Law and Gospel. As redeemed sinners we are to understand ourselves before God solely through the Gospel--what God has done for us, that we are forgiven, justified, and are adopted as children and heirs.

Actually, we are "children of God" through the new birth. iow, we have been born again. Our adoption has nothing to do with being God's children. Our adoption has to do with our inheritance.

The other dimension of the Christian life is the life lived before our fellow man, which is to be understood through the Law.

I find this interesting. I gave a thorough explanation of James 2 and you just ignored all of it. And your opinion about dealing with others is through the law is off base. Our dealing with others is through the "Law of Christ". Gal 6:2

We are not under law but grace. Gal 5:18

This is the answer to the question of "saved for what?" which Paul answers in Ephesians 2:10,

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Which is not related to the Law of Moses at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"We are saved by grace, through faith (mere believing), and not of works. Eph 2:8,9"

i could not let this go unchallenged - mere belief ? there is no such thing .

Thank you for your opinion. My "mere", I mean ONLY. Nothing else. We are saved by grace through faith. Not by works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8,9

all belief is proven only by action preformed. no action = no beleif

Again, thank you for your opinion. But it's no more correct than your first opinion in this post. Our deeds, works, actions are a demonstration of our faith, or what we believe. But there are those who HAVE believed but on occasion or regularly do NOT demonstrate their faith. Are they saved? Yes, because Jesus SAYS those who believe possess (have) eternal life, in John 5:24 and 7:47, and repeated by John in 1 John 5:11 and 13.

Then Jesus SAID that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. So they are saved by the FACT of believing in Him and receiving eternal life.

James' whole point was that believers SHOULD demonstrate their faith before others.

2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

iow, the ONLY WAY to show others your faith is by your works.

( i should add the question -by "works do you mean actions of the law ? for these were of circumcision of the flesh and the sacrificing of bulls and goats etc .. it is true that by doing those actions no man is justified )

By "works" I refer to "good deeds". I do not consider the sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law to be in play. Jesus fulfilled that Law. We are now under the Law of grace.

but "believe" is a verb .

Please don't make the mistake of assuming that any action is a work. By the Bible's definition, a work is something that earns something. Rom 4:4,5.

Faith also is a verb

No, actually, faith is a noun. It is the "body" of what is believed. Our 'faith' is the Christian faith, which is what we believe.

faith is the action one takes when one truly believes something .

Circular reasoning. Faith is not an action. In order to "put your faith in..." clearly shows that the action is the 'putting' of your faith.

you believed if you push the button on the laptop it will start up and you can post here - it does not mater how long you sit there claiming to have a "mere belief" -that laptop will not start up until your belief becomes an action .

Nice try. If I believe the laptop will start by pushing a button, that's my faith. That's what I believe. By actually pushing the button only demonstrates my faith. Nothing more.

There's an example floating around for years about sitting in a chair to demonstrate faith. It goes something like this: Do you believe this chair (in front of you) will hold you up? And the respondent answers "yes". Then the questioner says, go ahead and sit on the chair, and then equates the sitting on the chair with believing or "having faith" in the chair.

This is quite wrong, and for this reason. No one of sound mind would even think of sitting on a chair if they didn't ALREADY have faith that the chair would hold them up.

So it's a screwy example and very misleading. Demonstrating one's faith in something isn't the faith in something. So let's not get that confused.

so because you believe pushing the power button will make it start - you take the action ,you reach out your hand and push the button and .. it starts up . amazing - NOW you've proven you believe .- try and say it is not so without lying .

Do you not realize that to "prove that you believe" is still only a demonstration of your belief?

You're trying to make the demonstration of one's faith into one's faith. They aren't the same.

there is no such thing as a mere inactive belief - there is also no such thing as an action-less faith .

Says your opinion. That was James' concern toward his fellow believers. He wanted them to demonstrate their faith to others. And he gave a good example of a person who only paid lip service to those in need, rather than actually meeting their need in v.15,16. So when he asked, "can that faith save?", he was warning them of the impending charge of HYPOCRITE to those who don't demonstrate their faith. While he never used that word, the example he gave in v.15 and 16 is exactly that! And as the half brother of Jesus, he would have been well aware of how many times Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. Yes, they weren't saved, because they never believed in Jesus as Christ, but don't be so naive that believers can't be hypocrites.

Would you want to be thought of as a hypocrite among your work mates, neighbors, or congregation? I don't think so.

so when he writes ... for by grace are you saved THROUGH FAITH .. he is saying God has graciously granted you the opportunity of salvation (you could not earn that by anything you Do -in fact he done it before you were born).. and you get to partake of that salvation by what you now ,as a response of a clear conscience, DO because you believe him .-Faith , being the action you take based upon what you believe . no action = no faith ... No faith = no belief .. No belief = no salvation.

Wow, what a twist on a simple verse. In fact, Paul said that we are saved by faith APART FROM WORKS. Seems you missed all of what the verse says.

John the baptist speaking by the Holy Spirit sums it up completely -he says :
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.."

I invite you to consider the actual Greek word here for "does not obey".
NT:544 apeitheo (ap-i-theh'-o); from NT:545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):
KJV - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It refers to being "disobedient" by not believing.

he very pointedly does NOT say he who believes has life he who doesn't believe does not .

He very pointedly DOES SAY that.

because
there is NO separation between belief and obedience, they are one and the same thing .

If that were true, then there would be absolutely NO NEED for any admonishing believers against disobedience, but there are MANY such verses throughout the Bible, and esp in the NT. Your opinion is very naive.

Paul repeatedly commanded his audiences (of belivers) to walk "worthy".
Rom 16:2, Eph 4:1, Phil 1:;27, Col 1:10, 1 Thess 2:12, 2 Thess 1:5,11, Titus 2:2, Rev 3:4. And this isn't all of the verses. I recommend that you read each verse and realize that we are not automatically worthy by our faith.

you will see it soon enough ... it took me quite some years .i used to argue quite the opposite to what i'm now saying . but the lord showed me .

I'm so sorry for your confusion. I've been 'round the block for decades. And I have Scripture that backs up my claims.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Actually, we are "children of God" through the new birth. iow, we have been born again. Our adoption has nothing to do with being God's children. Our adoption has to do with our inheritance.

It's our new birth that makes us children. Having been born anew we have been joined to Jesus Christ, given the Spirit, by which we can cry out "Abba! Father!" as children. It is here by our adoption in Christ that we are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, 'Abba, Father.' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together." (Romans 8:12-17)

I find this interesting. I gave a thorough explanation of James 2 and you just ignored all of it. And your opinion about dealing with others is through the law is off base. Our dealing with others is through the "Law of Christ". Gal 6:2

We are not under law but grace. Gal 5:18


Which is not related to the Law of Moses at all.

I never mentioned the Law of Moses, I said the Law. The Law being what God has commanded. All which God commands is Law. The Torah refers to those instructions and commandments which God gave the Israelites, through Moses, as part of the Covenant with them at Mt. Horeb.

The "royal law of love" as St. James calls it, and "the Law of Christ" is Law. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is Law. "A new command I give you, that you love one another even as I have loved you" is Law.

I agree that the only way to make what James says is to speak of it in regard to other people. If by "justified from man's perspective" you mean the Coram Hominibus--our relationship toward others as a people called to obedience and love in Christ. Then I don't disagree.

The Epistle of James must be understood under the Epistles of Paul, since Homologoumena takes precedence over Antilegomena; because otherwise James and Paul are in conflict, and if that were the case then the charge that James is an "epistle of straw" holds weight. As such I go with the first route.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's our new birth that makes us children. Having been born anew we have been joined to Jesus Christ, given the Spirit, by which we can cry out "Abba! Father!" as children. It is here by our adoption in Christ that we are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.

Which I had said.

I never mentioned the Law of Moses, I said the Law.

Since we have the Mosaic Law, and other ones, it's always better to specify what you actually mean.

The Law being what God has commanded. All which God commands is Law. The Torah refers to those instructions and commandments which God gave the Israelites, through Moses, as part of the Covenant with them at Mt. Horeb.

Yep.

The "royal law of love" as St. James calls it, and "the Law of Christ" is Law. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is Law. "A new command I give you, that you love one another even as I have loved you" is Law.

Yep.

I agree that the only way to make what James says is to speak of it in regard to other people. If by "justified from man's perspective" you mean the Coram Hominibus--our relationship toward others as a people called to obedience and love in Christ. Then I don't disagree.

Yes, that's precisely what I mean.

The Epistle of James must be understood under the Epistles of Paul, since Homologoumena takes precedence over Antilegomena; because otherwise James and Paul are in conflict, and if that were the case then the charge that James is an "epistle of straw" holds weight. As such I go with the first route.

Even though James wrote before Paul. But, yes, they are not in conflict. Paul was writing about justification in God's eyes, which is through faith in Christ. James was weriting about being justified in the tyes of others, by demonstrating your faith to others.

 

[Alithis]

I said this:
"We are saved by grace, through faith (mere believing), and not of works. Eph 2:8,9"

Thank you for your opinion. My "mere", I mean ONLY. Nothing else. We are saved by grace through faith. Not by works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8,9


Again, thank you for your opinion. But it's no more correct than your first opinion in this post. Our deeds, works, actions are a demonstration of our faith, or what we believe. But there are those who HAVE believed but on occasion or regularly do NOT demonstrate their faith. Are they saved? Yes, because Jesus SAYS those who believe possess (have) eternal life, in John 5:24 and 7:47, and repeated by John in 1 John 5:11 and 13.

Then Jesus SAID that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. So they are saved by the FACT of believing in Him and receiving eternal life.

James' whole point was that believers SHOULD demonstrate their faith before others.

2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

iow, the ONLY WAY to show others your faith is by your works.


By "works" I refer to "good deeds". I do not consider the sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law to be in play. Jesus fulfilled that Law. We are now under the Law of grace.


Please don't make the mistake of assuming that any action is a work. By the Bible's definition, a work is something that earns something. Rom 4:4,5.


No, actually, faith is a noun. It is the "body" of what is believed. Our 'faith' is the Christian faith, which is what we believe.


Circular reasoning. Faith is not an action. In order to "put your faith in..." clearly shows that the action is the 'putting' of your faith.


Nice try. If I believe the laptop will start by pushing a button, that's my faith. That's what I believe. By actually pushing the button only demonstrates my faith. Nothing more.

There's an example floating around for years about sitting in a chair to demonstrate faith. It goes something like this: Do you believe this chair (in front of you) will hold you up? And the respondent answers "yes". Then the questioner says, go ahead and sit on the chair, and then equates the sitting on the chair with believing or "having faith" in the chair.

This is quite wrong, and for this reason. No one of sound mind would even think of sitting on a chair if they didn't ALREADY have faith that the chair would hold them up.

So it's a screwy example and very misleading. Demonstrating one's faith in something isn't the faith in something. So let's not get that confused.


Do you not realize that to "prove that you believe" is still only a demonstration of your belief?

You're trying to make the demonstration of one's faith into one's faith. They aren't the same.


Says your opinion. That was James' concern toward his fellow believers. He wanted them to demonstrate their faith to others. And he gave a good example of a person who only paid lip service to those in need, rather than actually meeting their need in v.15,16. So when he asked, "can that faith save?", he was warning them of the impending charge of HYPOCRITE to those who don't demonstrate their faith. While he never used that word, the example he gave in v.15 and 16 is exactly that! And as the half brother of Jesus, he would have been well aware of how many times Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. Yes, they weren't saved, because they never believed in Jesus as Christ, but don't be so naive that believers can't be hypocrites.

Would you want to be thought of as a hypocrite among your work mates, neighbors, or congregation? I don't think so.


Wow, what a twist on a simple verse. In fact, Paul said that we are saved by faith APART FROM WORKS. Seems you missed all of what the verse says.


I invite you to consider the actual Greek word here for "does not obey".
NT:544 apeitheo (ap-i-theh'-o); from NT:545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):
KJV - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It refers to being "disobedient" by not believing.


He very pointedly DOES SAY that.


If that were true, then there would be absolutely NO NEED for any admonishing believers against disobedience, but there are MANY such verses throughout the Bible, and esp in the NT. Your opinion is very naive.

Paul repeatedly commanded his audiences (of belivers) to walk "worthy".
Rom 16:2, Eph 4:1, Phil 1:;27, Col 1:10, 1 Thess 2:12, 2 Thess 1:5,11, Titus 2:2, Rev 3:4. And this isn't all of the verses. I recommend that you read each verse and realize that we are not automatically worthy by our faith.

actually you just reinforced everything i said .. i know you thought you were doing other wise but you didn't .
you see in the end its not those who disobey the lord Jesus that get saved -for when he returns he rejects those who disobey him . so you see -you simply cannot separate the obedience of faith from it .
people really begin to see this once they begin to obey him . those sitting in a building for 2 hours once a week .. just don't see it -or perhaps don't want to .

 

[Alithis]

again people always seem to stop the verse Quote in ephesians ..at .. not by works lest any man should boast . -
but it goes on to say - for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS ...which god has before ordained that we should walk in them...

so if your not walking in the good works .. your not saved . your still doing bad works of sin .. there is no neutral ground where one sits in limbo doing neither .

now yup some will say but you don't do the works to get saved ...
yet ....
if your not walking in those works its evidence your not yet saved -so it cannot be separated into two separate topics .its all one and the same thing .
if you desire to see just How ESSENTIAL it is to be walking in works of righteousness then refer to revelations chapter two . where in every case to the 7 congregations the lord Jesus says ..." I know thy WORKS ..." of yes , the alpha and omega the beginning and the end is directly concerned with their WORKS -- our works .

 

[FreeGrace2]

actually you just reinforced everything i said .. i know you thought you were doing other wise but you didn't .

It seems you didn't really read my post.

you see in the end its not those who disobey the lord Jesus that get saved

How silly. Of course not. It's those who obey the gospel, which means to believe what Jesus Christ did for them on the cross and what He gives to those who have believed in HIm.

-for when he returns he rejects those who disobey him . so you see -you simply cannot separate the obedience of faith from it .

I've already introduced you to John 10:28, so you have no excuse for your statement here.

people really begin to see this once they begin to obey him . those sitting in a building for 2 hours once a week .. just don't see it -or perhaps don't want to .

Those who gloss over such verses as John 10:28 are the ones who don't to see the fact that those who have believed shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

again people always seem to stop the verse Quote in ephesians ..at .. not by works lest any man should boast . -
but it goes on to say - for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS ...which god has before ordained that we should walk in them...

Are you misreading v.10 to "say" that salvation guarantees that believers will produce good works? Well, I would suggest reading v.10 a bit more carefully then.

so if your not walking in the good works .. your not saved .

Nonsense. Those who are not walking in good works are disobedient children.

Where does the Bible say anything about any of God's children becoming UN-children?

Even the parable of the prodigal shows that the younger son remained a son throughout the story, EVEN when he was willing to be demoted to mere servant.

now yup some will say but you don't do the works to get saved ...
yet ....

There is no "yet". Those who believe POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 Jn 5:11, 13. Read these verses.

And those who believe have been given eternal life by Jesus, who said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Please read these verses. Your views are in direct opposition to what Jesus SAID.

if your not walking in those works its evidence your not yet saved -so it cannot be separated into two separate topics .its all one and the same thing .

Your opinion is not supported by Scripture. Actually, it's far from Scripture.

if you desire to see just How ESSENTIAL it is to be walking in works of righteousness then refer to revelations chapter two . where in every case to the 7 congregations the lord Jesus says ..." I know thy WORKS ..." of yes , the alpha and omega the beginning and the end is directly concerned with their WORKS -- our works .

What you have failed to realize is that the letters to all 7 churches is about eternal reward for enduring. Not getting salvation, as you assume.

 

[Alithis]

It seems you didn't really read my post.


How silly. Of course not. It's those who obey the gospel, which means to believe what Jesus Christ did for them on the cross and what He gives to those who have believed in HIm.


I've already introduced you to John 10:28, so you have no excuse for your statement here.


Those who gloss over such verses as John 10:28 are the ones who don't to see the fact that those who have believed shall never perish.

and those who believe are those that DO the wil of the father .. not those that just say oh yes we believe .. believing is an action one takes . not a theory one accepts .

 

[Alithis]

Nonsense. Those who are not walking in good works are disobedient children.

and the disobedient and the rebellious do not enter the kingdom of God ..so back to the gospel we go .. they must repent . they must cease from doing evil deeds in order to do righteousness .if they dont , they have not yet repented and if they have not yet repented they are not yet saved -you simply cannot separate belief and obedience nor can you separate faith from action .

 

[FreeGrace2]

and those who believe are those that DO the wil of the father

I think you misunderstand what the "will of the Father" is. Jesus told us in John 6:40 exactly what the "will of the Father" is.

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

His will is eternal security for those who have believed.

.. not those that just say oh yes we believe .. believing is an action one takes . not a theory one accepts .

This is all assumption and opinion. And unsubstantiated. Find a Greek lexicon, study the word for "believe" and then get back to me on what you find.