Are they saved?

[Natsumi Lam]

Exactly!

That's what spiritual growth is all about.

Misunderstanding during that developement is natural.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

No, and that's the problem. But still no excuse.

According to whom?

That is why there is the milk and the meat eaters. It takes time to digest a deeper understanding.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hey, FreeGrace2, are you sure you're not a Baptist?

I used to be. Before I realized that there are no denominations in the NT.

 

[FreeGrace2]

According to whom?

The Bible.

2 Pet 1:3 - His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

That is why there is the milk and the meat eaters. It takes time to digest a deeper understanding.

The food metaphor deals with one's level of growth. Babies cannot digest meat, and must have milk. A physically mature person can digest meat.

1 Pet 2:2 - Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,

Heb 5:13 - Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

Yet, there are Christians who have been saved long enough to know better than to push the idea that salvation can be lost.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

The Bible.

2 Pet 1:3 - His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

Does not say no excuse in anyway.

I am glad we agree on milk and meat. My point was milk drinkers are just learning the basics.

We dont know if the OP person is a milk drinker or meat eater. Dont judge their digestion level.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am glad we agree on milk and meat. My point was milk drinkers are just learning the basics.

The point of the verses I quoted is that there are Christians who should be meat eaters but cannot get past their milk and cookies. iow, they remain baby Christians way after they should have grown up.

We dont know if the OP person is a milk drinker or meat eater. Dont judge their digestion level.

The real issue isn't about what to digest, but simply what to believe. And the question of the OP was about a person who believes in works along with faith to be saved.

Since there is no such teaching in Scripture, it seems to me that they aren't even swallowing the milk of the word. They are eating out of the dog bowl.

How long would a baby survive if eating from the dog bowl?

 

[JohnB445]

Thanks for the responses. I agree we are saved by grace and its a gift of God. The question that has been answered was are the people who misunderstand grace get saved or not, which has been answered.

As in terms of milk or meat, I got saved this August 9th (The day I fully recognized and believed in God, Jesus and him dying on the cross for me and raising on the third day). I'm sure it was at that day because my life changed too dramatically because of it and I witnessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit I believe.

Its been less than one year until I truly become a believer and trusted the Gospel without doubt or question. So I would assume I am still on milk, but I sometimes jump ahead and go into complex things.

I haven't yet read the whole Bible, only portions of it here and there. I fully read Galatians, and John for some reason the John in my Bible only has 5 chapters, when some other Bibles have much more chapters of John. I use NASB.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks for the responses. I agree we are saved by grace and its a gift of God. The question that has been answered was are the people who misunderstand grace get saved or not, which has been answered.

As in terms of milk or meat, I got saved this August 9th (The day I fully recognized and believed in God, Jesus and him dying on the cross for me and raising on the third day). I'm sure it was at that day because my life changed too dramatically because of it and I witnessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit I believe.

Its been less than one year until I truly become a believer and trusted the Gospel without doubt or question. So I would assume I am still on milk, but I sometimes jump ahead and go into complex things.

I haven't yet read the whole Bible, only portions of it here and there. I fully read Galatians, and John for some reason the John in my Bible only has 5 chapters, when some other Bibles have much more chapters of John. I use NASB.

Great testimony!! Thanks.

John has 21 chapters. I recommend reading the epistles through one at a time. There's a lot there. Acts will give you a foundation of how Christianity developed and spread throughout the known world.

Good reading!!

 

[fhansen]

I was taught that if you believe your works will save you, you are not saved even if you believe that Jesus existed and that he is lord.

The reason I got was that they didn't have faith in him, that he alone saves. They didn't believe his death on the cross was sufficient for salvation basically.

So is this true that Faith+Works=Salvation theory damns someone? But they believed, this topic gets really confusing.

So someone has to strictly believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose on the third day to be saved, anything else added damns them like if they add works in order to be saved aswell?

I'm not sure how this makes sense.

"At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love."

We work out our salvation with He who works in us (Phil 2:12-13). What we do counts, beginning with the response of faith, to God's first calling us, but not ending there. Read Matt 25:31-46 to see examples of what kinds of works, done for "the least of these", we'll be judged on. These are the works mentioned in Eph 2:10: "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

This is not Pelagianism; this is man cooperating with God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing' (John 15:5), and 'with whom all things are possible' (Matt 19:26) This is all about grace and our cooperation with it, our "investing" of it as per The Parable of the Talents, doing the best we can with whatever we're given. This is all about communion with God, a state of being man was made for, a state of being that Adam basically dismissed with his act of disobedience. Lack of this communion constitutes spiritual death for man.

This is faith leading to love as a result of this communion, of God's indwelling, love being the right and proper motivator of works, the opposite of man's self-righteousness which is based on pride: "The only thing that counts is faith working through love" (Gal 5:6). In Catholic theology love is the true hallmark or definition of man's justice, which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are, and why Paul would say in 1 Cor 13: "...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." And later, "And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love."

So in her catechism the Church teaches, echoing a 16th century believer: "At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love."

Having said this, any theology can be abused, or twisted into legalism which seems to be an all-too-human tendency, but Catholic doctrine on justification is far more balanced and in line with Scripture taken as a whole IMO than the Sola Fide doctrine.

 

[Tayla]

So is this true that Faith+Works=Salvation theory damns someone?

In my view, belief + works = faith. Doing the work triggers the faith. The faith doesn't exist without the work, it is mere belief. Work activates the belief turning it into faith.

In the Bible, in every example of someone's faith mentioned, there is always a corresponding work; even the thief on the cross did a work in confessing Jesus.

We are not saved by works alone because works require correct belief supporting them to be considered as faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In my view, belief + works = faith. Doing the work triggers the faith. The faith doesn't exist without the work, it is mere belief.

We are saved by grace, through faith (mere believing), and not of works. Eph 2:8,9

Work activates the belief turning it into faith.

Where does the Bible teach or say this?

Instead, the Bible says this:

Eph 2:8,9 -
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

and,

Rom 4;4,5 -
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

In the Bible, in every example of someone's faith mentioned, there is always a corresponding work; even the thief on the cross did a work in confessing Jesus.

That wasn't a work in any sense. The biblical sense of "work" is earning something, which is what Rom 4:4,5 is about, as well as Eph 2;8,9.

Faith and works are DISTINGUISHED in Scripture, not equated.

We are not saved by works alone because works require correct belief supporting them to be considered as faith.

In fact, we are not saved by works at all. We ARE saved by grace through faith. Period.

Our works have no place in our salvation. Only the perfect Work of Christ on the Cross will provide our salvation, by our faith in His work.

Never ours.

 

[Gr8Grace]

In my view, belief + works = faith.

In the mind of Christ's view, a person has to be saved, have the indwelling Holy Spirit, learn and understand fellowship.......then apply that knowledge before a DIVINE work THROUGH the indwelling Spirit can ever happen.

Salvation has to be in place and finished(past the milk). Fellowship(some meat) has to be learned and applied.......before ANY believer can produce the works the Bible speaks of. Divine works.

If we believe that 'works' have something to do with being saved, staying saved or maintaining salvation, the Bible calls them dung/evil/wicked/unrighteous/human good.

 

[stephen pollard]

I was taught that if you believe your works will save you, you are not saved even if you believe that Jesus existed and that he is lord.

The reason I got was that they didn't have faith in him, that he alone saves. They didn't believe his death on the cross was sufficient for salvation basically.

So is this true that Faith+Works=Salvation theory damns someone? But they believed, this topic gets really confusing.

So someone has to strictly believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose on the third day to be saved, anything else added damns them like if they add works in order to be saved aswell?

I'm not sure how this makes sense.

When I became a christian at a young age, I believed I could only be righteous in God's sight by works of the law as a Christian. That contradicts the message of scripture. Was I then saved with my incorrect belief? Yes, for the law was in my heart, and in my heart I wanted to obey it. If that is true, I must have been born again. God accepts us with many faults, including having some errant beliefs(strangely)

 

[fhansen]

When I became a christian at a young age, I believed I could only be righteous in God's sight by works of the law as a Christian. That contradicts the message of scripture. Was I then saved with my incorrect belief? Yes, for the law was in my heart, and in my heart I wanted to obey it. If that is true, I must have been born again. God accepts us with many faults, including having some errant beliefs(strangely)

That's a good point, none of us as individuals have perfectly inerrant beliefs I'd bet. There'll be surprises in heaven for everyone.

Another point that's important IMO is that we still need to strive, we still need to improve, to show fruit that reflects the fruit that should now reside inside to the best we can, even knowing that we'll still fail at times. I like Luke 12:48:
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

 

[stephen pollard]

This would be a great burden for those

I like Luke 12:48:
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

This would be a great burden for those who had been given much, but in their hearts are not prepared to pay the price then required.

 

[fhansen]

This would be a great burden for those

This would be a great burden for those who had been given much, but in their hearts are not prepared to pay the price then required.

Hmm. Well, sometimes I think we want to be burdenless, while Jesus said His burden was light, not non-existent. God takes us from where we are, knowing our weaknesses and individual backgrounds. He challenges us to follow Him as well as we can, with the grace given. He ultimately desires perfection but died for us while we were yet sinners, and patiently draws and works with and molds us from there. We're expected to cooperate; that's our only part-and yet it's a part we can turn back away from at any step along the way.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Was I then saved with my incorrect belief? Yes, for the law was in my heart, and in my heart I wanted to obey it. If that is true, I must have been born again.

Phil 3~~If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Acts 7:58~~When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
Acts 8:1~~ 1 Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death.

 

[stephen pollard]

Phil 3~~If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Acts 7:58~~When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
Acts 8:1~~ 1 Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death.

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.
Acts15:5

 

[ViaCrucis]

For Lutherans this matter is clear and concise:

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us." (Luther's Large Catechism, Section II, Article III)

As such we speak of "objective justification" and "subjective justification". Objective justification is what Christ has done for all, as we read in Romans,

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:18-19)

So that by Christ's righteous obedience, by His life, death, and resurrection, all have been justified. This is objective justification. What Christ has done for all, without exception.

But in order that we, as individuals, receive this objective work the Holy Spirit appropriates these to us as individuals, that is, subjective justification. God does this by giving us the gift of faith which is apart from ourselves, as the Apostle writes in Ephesians 2:8, the Means by which such faith comes is the precious and holy Gospel (Romans 10:17). Therefore, the Apostle says, the justice of God is revealed in the Gospel (Romans 1:17); not the condemnatory justice of the Law, but the justice which is apart from the Law--that justice by which God makes the unjust just (Romans 3:21-22). So it is written, "The just shall live by faith".

And so we can always reside in the comfort of the Gospel, wherein all of God's promises are found, and freely given, apart from ourselves, by the goodness and kindness and love of God which is ours in Jesus Christ.

For this reason I can rely on my baptism, since all who were baptized into Christ have been clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27), and having Christ and His perfect righteousness we are justified before God. For Christ alone is our reconciliation, Christ alone is our righteousness, "He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, 'Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.'" (1 Corinthians 1:30-31).

There is nothing of us, in us, or from us that is of any merit or value as far as our redemption goes. God has accomplished His saving work for us, of Himself, by His grace alone for us, working these things for us for our own benefit. That we might be called children and heirs of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hmm. Well, sometimes I think we want to be burdenless, while Jesus said His burden was light, not non-existent. God takes us from where we are, knowing our weaknesses and individual backgrounds. He challenges us to follow Him as well as we can, with the grace given. He ultimately desires perfection but died for us while we were yet sinners, and patiently draws and works with and molds us from there. We're expected to cooperate; that's our only part-and yet it's a part we can turn back away from at any step along the way.

All of this sounds as though a believer can ultimately lose their salvation.

Yet, Jesus was very clear as to when He gives the gift of eternal life to people; when they believe they HAVE (as in presently) etenral life, per John 5:24 and 6:47. The apostle John said the same thing in 1 John 5:11 and 13.

Then, Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

Notice that Jesus placed NO conditions on recipients of eternal life to fulfill in order to not perish. That means there aren't any.

Consider this: IF He just didn't mention conditions in John 10:28, and there ARE believers who don't fulfill whatever conditions are necessary in order to not perish, then John 10:28 is merely a false statement.

iow, if anyone who has been given the gift of eternal life ever ends up in the lake of fire, then John 10:28 is proven to be a false statement.

Are you aware that is where you are arguing from?

Your view is in direct opposition to what Jesus stated.