Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

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The Free Will of man cannot be proven.

It frequently and already was proven for many thousands of years.

 

[JIMINZ]

It frequently and already was proven for many thousands of years.

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How and by whom, you haven't done it.

 

[JIMINZ]

If there is no standard of morality that we as believers uphold than we are no worse than this sinful world.

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There is a standard of morality that Believers are to adhere to, but you continually declare how much you sin, so I would have to assume you are not living up to the Believers Standard of morality.

 

[JIMINZ]

However, if a person says that obedience to God's moral laws does not apply to them salvation wise, then they are undercutting the very Moral argument for the existence of God. It's not right. So if this applies to you: Then I will say, please rethink your ways and repent.

For Scripture says, the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
For nowhere does Scripture teach that youc an live unrighteously and yet inherit the Kingdom of God and or be saved. Be not deceived. God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

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You continually harp on the fact Believers are living unrighteously, is that because you live unrighteously and yet you assume you will inherit the Kingdom of God and or be saved.

Which is a misunderstanding, because they are not synonymous

 

[JIMINZ]

I forgot to say that Once Saved Always Saved, is also called Free Grace, Eternal Security, Unconditional Eternal Security, OSAS, Perseverance of the Saints.

It is basically saying that you can willfully break God's moral laws on some level and still be saved vs. living holy and in the will of God. For most in the Eternal Security camp will deny that you cannot stop sinning. You will be a slave to sin. Yet, Jesus condemned this kind of thinking. He says, he that sins is a slave to sin. Paul says we are to be slaves to righteousness. So what kind of believer do you want to be? A believer who is a slave to sin or a believer who is a slave to righteousness?

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How can a slave to Righteousness continue to sin?
Because all unrighteousness is sin.

 

[JIMINZ]

However, you can CHOOSE to walk away from Christ, be led into all sorts of sin, and then you can lose your salvation. As I mentioned in my last post,


The way I hear some people talk, they act (in public) as if they were born sinless, and have always been walking in the midst of God's Perfect Will. If this is a person's walk, God will say, "I never knew you." However, if a person searches their soul, and tries to walk in humility, "God will say, Well Done."

I am a sinner. In the past I have been rough with people on these Fora, and I have regretted it. Further past, well, let's just say that it is covered by the Blood. But God is drawing me closer to Himself every day.

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Isn't everything that God Wills His Perfect Will?

I don't believe it is possible to divide Gods' Will into categories, of good , better, best, perfect.

 

[Monk Brendan]

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Isn't everything that God Wills His Perfect Will?

I don't believe it is possible to divide Gods' Will into categories, of good , better, best, perfect.

And that is your right to believe so. But we are told to be perfect, as our Heavenly Father is perfect. Unless you get used to hearing God's voice, and learning what His will is, you can walk yourself right into hell.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How can a slave to Righteousness continue to sin?

Same as most people - by choosing and following another god, another master, instead of YHWH.

 

[JIMINZ]

Can someone theoretically under the OSAS ideoligy sin as much as they want.... after accepting God as their savior or whatever...and still make it to heaven? Could i sleep with someone each day....watch inappropriate content each day.... mmmm idk steal sometimes all while accepting God as my savior (assuming that's what you believe salvation is) and still make it? Still be saved?

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NO, because no matter how anyone wants to cut it, they are still sinning, and we all know,

1 John 6-10
6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:

 

[JIMINZ]

That's right. Paul wrote Peter "stood condemned", meaning he was in a state of that would lead to ultimate condemnation unless he turned and changed.

Peter turned and changed. Repented.

We can too, all of us. That's part of the amazing Grace He offers to us.

There's something to learn in these epistles, like Galatians, and the lessons are not always comfortable! But it will end up far more uncomfortable to refuse to do as we are instructed.

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Gal.2:11
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be (BLAMED) KJV

 

[JIMINZ]

And that is your right to believe so. But we are told to be perfect, as our Heavenly Father is perfect. Unless you get used to hearing God's voice, and learning what His will is, you can walk yourself right into hell.

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I didn't say anything about us, your just trying to make your point.

 

[Halbhh]

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Gal.2:11
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be (BLAMED) KJV

Yes, I ended up quoting that in a "to be blamed" version to illustrate the meaning above.

The big point though vis a vis this thread is that Peter did a serious wrong, after having been already strong in faith. And therefore any believer can, and so we need at times to repent.

 

[Brokenhill]

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The Free Will of man cannot be proven.

The lack of free-will would contradict multiple attributes about God.

For God to judge justly, it would require A.creating fixed boundaries; B. a subject with ability to choose; C. the subject would have to be informed of the boundaries before judgement.

God is light and God is love and God is GOOD. If God created humans to do evil without their choice, then it would be God doing the evil. It would just be God spawning minions of evil and minions of good. But God cannot sin...God cannot commit evil acts.
The only philosophical answer to this is that the lack of God is evil, and while God creates humans for good, if they choose to rebel against Him then that void of good is what we know as evil.

Joshua 24:15
"15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

If God created you to tell me that free will does not exist; and He created me to tell you that free will does exist...
Isn't that so obviously contradictory on the most basic level?

 

[Brokenhill]

Disagree.

God IS Light.
Everyone hearing God Word IS being enlightened.

Every Word of God Judas heard, he was being enlightened.

Every Word of God an Atheist hears, he is being enlightened.

Every Word of God the Roman soldiers heard, they were being enlightened and even repeated the True Word of God calling Jesus The King of the Jews!

Being enlightened is one thing. Which is precisely what is happening to a person who is hearing the Word of God.

Believing, Doubing, Challenging, wondering...
Is precisely what happens to pretty much every man who first hears the Word of God,
And you can review the Scriptures, that those things happened Even to Jesus' chosen Disciples.

Every individual man has his own individual freewill to choose to be enlightened by hearing God Word, continuing to hear Gods Word, believe it, mock it, wonder about it, hear for awhile, stop hearing, then return to hearing, or flat out reject it.....

Every time a man IS hearing that man is being Enlightened.

Every time a man is being Enlightened The Lord Himself is giving the man a measure of Faith. Not a Full Measure.

Any man who chooses to STOP or REJECT hearing, Believing what he hears THAT man has LOST his FAITH, and is receiving no more FAITH from the Lord.

NOW for a man who has become enlightened hearing the Word of God AND then in the Lords Name AND the mans own declaration of TRUE belief in his heart that that man BELIEVES IN the Word of God That The Word of God is True...

And That the mans confession IS True WHICH the Lord Who knows all things Will know If the confession IS True.

THEN being a TRUE confession the Lord SHALL save the mans soul, unto forever life.

That man SHALL also Have his body forgiven and justified to become dead and alive in Chris's body forever, and to have his spirit quickened to forever life with the Lord And
To receive Full faithfulness from the Lord forever, that such man can never stand Against the Lord in Disbelief which standing Against the Lord in Disbelief IS SIN Against God.

Any man Who has become in Standing With the Lord, (forgiven, soul Saved, Spirit quickened, body justified, received full faithFullness) IS NEVER reversed Nor otherwise can be undone.

Such a man By the POWER of God is Free and Kept from Sin.

Never would you ever hear such a man, Freed From Sin, Ever Speak Against the Lord of Disbelief In The Lord.

A man beginning to be enlightened Is simply the beginning of Faith - not the Fullness of Faith.

Point being -
Any man can loose Faith
- until such time the man has received Fullness of Faith, which is a gift from God WHEN the Lord has Converted the Whole of the man....
Body soul spirit OF the man, which can never be undone.

God Bless,
SBC

Well you disagree with scripture, not me.

You provided ZERO scripture for your beliefs.

It's nothing personal, but I'm not interested in merely your opinion..I want truth, which is every word breathed by God.
(Hallelujah, amen.)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The lack of free-will would contradict multiple attributes about God.

Also, it would contradict all of Scripture if YHWH took away man's free will.

Of course, r2d2 did not have free will,
and r2d2 could not enjoy salvation, nor even life itself....
some might prefer life that way,
though it would be opposed to YHWH'S Way.

 

[JacksBratt]

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How about this, if a Believer is Dead to Sin, how then does a Believer Sin?

Both Paul and Peter are in agreement, "We Are Dead to Sin."

Romans 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

I know a lot of strong Christians and they all sin.....

Anyone who says that they don't covet, lust, lie, fall to gluttony, sloth, have unrighteous anger, .... is lying.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Anyone who says that they don't covet, lust, lie, fall to gluttony, sloth, have unrighteous anger, .... is lying.

Maybe not,
maybe people who have to sin are just like the believers in Corinth: they're just carnal ....

 

[JIMINZ]

The lack of free-will would contradict multiple attributes about God.

For God to judge justly, it would require A.creating fixed boundaries; B. a subject with ability to choose; C. the subject would have to be informed of the boundaries before judgement.

God is light and God is love and God is GOOD. If God created humans to do evil without their choice, then it would be God doing the evil. It would just be God spawning minions of evil and minions of good. But God cannot sin...God cannot commit evil acts.
The only philosophical answer to this is that the lack of God is evil, and while God creates humans for good, if they choose to rebel against Him then that void of good is what we know as evil.

Joshua 24:15
"15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

If God created you to tell me that free will does not exist; and He created me to tell you that free will does exist...
Isn't that so obviously contradictory on the most basic level?

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If it is understood, God Created everything, what would make you think He didn't Create evil as well.

God placed in the Garden The Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, if God did not create evil then where did it come from, God had the knowledge of Good and Evil.

I keep saying it but nobody listens.

God gave DOMINION to mankind through Adam, within that Dominion rests the ability to make choices, Free Will is not an entity unto itself, that is the reason your cannot find it mentioned even once in the Bible, it is part and parcel of Dominion.

Mankind has Dominion, and therein lies the ability to make choices, mankind has this ability in order for him to be able to chart the course of his life, it does not apply to anything else.

Mankind does not possess the ability to chose to do Good or Evil (Sin) as we think of Free Will Choices, he is a slave to sin he is sold under sin, he has a sin Nature and will always sin until he is Freed From Sin, he does not have the ability to resist sin it's what we do as human beings.

If mankind has this Free Will, why then does it take so many people years before they finally do come to the knowledge of God?

It isn't by their Free Will, it is because God Draws them by His Spirit, and then by the Grace of God he receives his Salvation, it isn't a choice which God offers to man, it is a Gift of God to man.

Before a person is Saved, and becomes a Believer, he is a Slave unto Sin, after he is Saved, being born unto God, he is a Slave unto God and Jesus.

 

[JIMINZ]

Well you disagree with scripture, not me.

You provided ZERO scripture for your beliefs.

It's nothing personal, but I'm not interested in merely your opinion..I want truth, which is every word breathed by God.
(Hallelujah, amen.)

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Hmmmm

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that (GOD IS LIGHT), and in him is (NO DARKNESS AT ALL).

 

[JIMINZ]

I know a lot of strong Christians and they all sin.....

Anyone who says that they don't covet, lust, lie, fall to gluttony, sloth, have unrighteous anger, .... is lying.

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Don't tell me who you know or what they do.

It just sounds as though you do not fully believe what Scripture so clearly says.
Your using the lives of people to contradict Scripture.

When all you need to do it REFUTE these verses.

If you cannot Refute these verses, then you will have to change your thinking and belief, in order for you to be in line with what Scripture so clearly does say.

We need to rearrange our beliefs to be in order to fit with what Scripture says, we can't pick and choose what we Believe, either Scripture is the Truth or it is not.