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Featured Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Lik3, Dec 10, 2017.

  1. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Leave the assembly.
    Amos 3:3
    Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
     
  2. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Everything you have proposed is 100% true, the difference is, they were only guaranteed something if (THEY) completed the school, which they had to do on their own power.

    Whereas, the Christian not only has a guarantee, they have been given Eternal Life even before they began the walk in Christ, He has already passed the course for them without making one mistake (Sin), which means No Drop Outs.
     
  3. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Jesus only wept because He had compassion, but He also knew before He was ever sent, that they would reject Him, that was the plan for the Redemption of man.
     
  4. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    What are they supposed to do in order for them to be accepted in the Beloved?.......Set their hair on fire?
     
  5. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
     
  6. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    First it must be understood, Salvation, and The Kingdom of God are two different things, and cannot be used as synonyms, while (OSAS) is something else all together, it is an understanding of where you stand in Jesus, and why it is possible for the Christian to claim it.

    It was not a taught Doctrine by the Apostles as such, it was however taught in the understandings of what is gained through Gods Grace, and the Salvation, Baptism experience.
     
  7. SBC

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    First show me where Future sins are committed ONCE a man is Born OF God ... that would make 1 John 3:9 A lie.

    God Bless
    SBC
     
  8. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Define what you are calling the "process of sanctification" and the "Spirit can be quenched".

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  9. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    The simplest question I can then ask is, if a Believer is Dead to Sin, how then does a Believer Sin?

    Both Paul and Peter say We Are Dead to Sin.

    Romans 6:2
    God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Romans 6:11
    Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    1 Peter 2:24
    Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
     
  10. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Read my post #289
     
  11. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    David cannot be considered Saved, Jesus had not yet suffered and died for our sins, Salvation as we know it was not available to those of the Old Testament.

    Peter's denial while it might have been a lie, was not a sin on the same grounds as David
     
  12. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    My chosen version is
    Does not Sin
    Can not Sin

    You seem to express there is a possibility for one to Sin...After he is Born OF God.

    Man is Born OF God BY receiving Gods Seed in his Heart.

    The Word of God was Born OF God when Gods living Word came forth out from Gods mouth.

    A man having received the Seed of God is called; A son of God.

    The Word of God, revealed in the likeness as a man, is called; the Only begotten
    Son of God; and called by the Name Jesus.
    {begotten because Only he came forth Out of God}

    By your rendition and implication
    Any Son / son OF God seems to try really hard to Not Practice Sin.... but that there IS a Possibility He / he Might Sin.....

    Is that accurate ?

    Because if so...

    I totally disagree with you.


    Being crucified with Christ is one thing
    That concerns a physically alive body that IS spiritual Dead to God becoming washed, in Jesus' Blood, Sanctified, Annointed By God,
    and reserved i.e. set Aside I.e. Kept with Christ, testified OF In Heaven, In Gods Records, In Gods Book of Life that that body is Justified TO BE Redeemed and Changed Into a glorious body., thereafter Forever fully aware of being with the Lord.

    In the meantime that physically Alive body is spirituality Alive IN Christs Jesus' Body.

    Being saved is one thing
    That concerns restoration of ones soul.

    Being born again is another thing
    That concerns the quickening of ones Spirit.

    If you recall God created man Very Good, In Gods LIKENESS.

    What Changed ?

    Belief IN God.

    How?

    By Man Rejecting Gods Word and instead accepting one of Gods creations word, that was In Conflict with Gods Word.

    And What IS Disbelief IN God called?

    Sin.

    And How does a man Sin?

    By Rejecting Gods Word and instead accept mans word that Is in Conflict with Gods Word.

    And ? So man became "NOT GOOD".
    And mans seeds reproduces more of his not good kinds of things.

    And ? Boo hoo mankind is doomed?
    No. yeah, yeah, God has provided His Way for a mans, body, soul, & Spirit to be made Whole and acceptable To God.

    That Is effected By a mans Freewill to choose to Believe In God, Trust His Word is True, and Do what His Word Says.

    When God Forgives a man - He is Forgiving a man FOR NOT having Believed IN Him and For Not having Trusting His Word over His creations Word that conflict with His Word.

    ONCE a man HAS Freely chosen To Believe in God and Trust His Word over His creations Word that conflict with God.....
    And -
    God has made the man Whole.....
    Restored the man back to Good.....
    Keeps the man Whole and Good BY the supreme Power of His Spirit....

    What....Power IS Greater that can EVER cause that man To ever Again Sin?

    NONE! ZIP! NADA!

    Such a man IS forever FREED From Sin and Can Not Ever Sin Again.

    Sin is only Against God.
    And Only God forgives Sin.

    Does Scriptures call Acts of man Against man A Sin? Yep.

    Why?

    Because UNDER Mosaic Law Every disobedient Act a man did Against The Law was called a Sin.

    Why?

    Because IT WAS BY Obedience TO the Law,
    Hoe a man revealed He Believed IN God.

    And that carried forward from the Hebrews To the Tribes of Israel to the Jews of this day where BY some of the Tribe of Judah continue and some of the other Tribes faulted, yet while they all are of the same Race of Hebrews separated from the Race of Gentiles.

    I am a Gentile. My history did not begin being subject to mosaic law, steeped in knowledge of their God, their customs, traditions. My history begins with the Word of God, whom I Trust IS my God With me. Every thing asked of me To Do and Believe has Been By and through Him.

    I have accomplished BY my Own choosing to submit my Life To Him and fully Trust He is Faithful to have made me Whole and FREED From Sin.

    Paul taught to mixed crowds. You call them Christians.

    A Christian in Scriptures is simply a follower of Christs teaching.
    No different today.
    A born again Christian Is not merely a follower, but rather a man who has Committed his Life To Christ the Lod Jesus.
    Huge Difference.

    Paul's crowds...mixed Jews & Gentiles -
    All hearing Paul's same words.
    All believing ? No.
    What was familiar Knowledge to a Jew?

    Everything they did WRONG was for, 4 thousand years called A Sin.

    And ?

    For a Gentile? {never having been subject to mosaic law}

    Disbelief in the Word of God, who IS God, Is A Sin.

    So How did with one Speech teach to Jews and Gentiles in the Same crowd.

    The Same Way as Jesus taught. Speaking The Truth in A Fashion that a mixed crowd could understand what He was saying BY terms that were Familiar To Them.....
    While Also revealing Truths that neither the Jews or the Gentiles Had Ever Heard.

    It was Jesus' revealing such Truths that would DIVIDE...Jews & Gentiles FROM Him or
    Congregate....Jews & Gentiles TO Him.

    When you read Scriptures Discover Who Paul is addressing- men steeped in mosaic law or Gentiles.
    The divided or the ones submitting.

    And the ones submitted...then what?
    Done deal?
    As far as their Salvation... Yes.
    As far as their Behavior and Works ? No.

    Their Behavior and HOW TO do works to Glorify God are continually taught and reprimanded when one is found in conflict to be doing something reflective of being a poor reflection On Gods begotten "Son" and on Gods quickened "sons"!

    When reprimanding a Jew, the familiar term of SIN is their familiar understanding of not doing something Correctly.

    When reprimanding a Gentile, the familiar term IS you're Not Behaving "Christ-Like".

    Then we have the Gentiles WHO...have submitted their Life to Christ, become Forgiven of their Sin Against God, become reconciled To God ...but, but, but....
    Have ADOPTED a Jews historical understanding of SIN....

    Oh my you drank too much...you Sinned
    Oh my you didn't eat with sinners...you Sinned
    Oh my you ate with sinners...you Sinned.
    Oh my you said you would wash the dishes and you didn't....you Sinned.

    Good grief Gentiles get a clue...you are Not Jews Proving your Belief in God by Following Jewish law or subject to their terminology that every imperfect work you do is a sin.

    Stop preaching Gods Word is dependent Upon a mans Behavior!

    Know what your Sin Against God Was and Thus You would Know What God Forgave.

    Stop with the nonsense God Forgave your Sin but but but - somehow IS waiting On the sidelines Waiting TO See If You will Trump His Word With Your Behavior Of Stop Believing In Him!

    Acknowledge your reprimands of not Behaving Christ-like and Fix that and move On, improving your Behavior to that which glorifies God.

    It doesn't mean you have STOPPED Believing,
    Which IS what God Already Forgave.

    It simply means your works are crummy and not up to par...So fix it....what do you think the Power of God is in you For?

    Hello? It's There to strengthen you... so get busy and ask for His strength to improve your works!

    Stop preaching the undermining OF Gods Forgiveness. His Word Spoken Is TRUE regardless of what you Do.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  13. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    Art thou a master of Christianity, and knowest not these things?
     
  14. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    I’m waiting on your scripture man... clearly me and you have a logical perspective but one of us is using scripture. I want scripture for forever being forgiven and never having to go before God again to repent or seek forgiveness. The lord’s prayer even has seeking forgiveness...
     
  15. JESUS=G.O.A.T

    JESUS=G.O.A.T Well-Known Member

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    1 John 3:9 doesn’t even say what you claim it’s saying. Even in the KJV version the word commit is refering to continuous sin. in fact sometimes Paul makes it clear when in another verse in chapter 3 he says committeth sin which means to practice sin when he says “he that committeth sin is of the devil. And before you claim that that’s not for saved Christians... he’s writing that to saved Christians as if he believes they need to be warned not to do that. If it wasn’t possible to sin after being saved he wouldn’t say that. 1 John 3:9 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. I also know this because of 1 John 2:1 John 2:1 1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: Here is yet again the other scriptures I have that show a saved person cannot just sin again but backside and leave the faith. If it’s biblical that one can backslide then we can assume one can sin again obviously. If I can just prove in the scriptures that one can backslide that some sin enoigh... although I have shown repeatedly that 1 John 2:1 has “if” as if it’s possible to sin again. 2 corithians 13:5
    Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;
    prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


    Comment: One can depart the faith and even reach reprobate status.... reprobate means... failing to pass....unapproved....counterfeit




    1 Timothy 4:1King JamesVersion (KJV)
    4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Here's a great example here...one that was once saved following Paul but he left Demas.

    2 Timothy 4:10King James Version (KJV)
    10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  16. SBC

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    Disagree about David.

    The Word of God was Killed Before mankind Was created.

    The Word of God was Killed By the Thoughts of Gods most beautiful Angel God created with great Power and Intelligence Named Lucifer.

    Obviously mankind did Not Witness Lucifers thoughts That Killed The Word of God "BY" thinking something that MADE Gods Word A Lie.

    But no issue - Lucifer Lost His Estate In Gods Heavenly Kingdom by being cast to the newly created Earth and Lost -
    His heavenly Name &
    His Life With God

    He became Satan Thee chief Devil and took with him to earth other angels Who rejected God Word and accepted Lucifers Word, and they also losing their estates in heaven and being with God , and thereafter are also devils.

    Any thought Or speech Or action Against Gods Word IS "killing" Gods Word.

    And low and behold if we have not found mankind historically busy hopping on the trail of Satan ALSO killing The Word of God,
    In thoughts, speech and deeds, from the beginning of mankind To this day! Yikes!

    Woe woe, what shall become of mankind?

    Aha - Gods plan - His Way to Forgive men and reconcile them To God Himself Forever!

    starting When?

    From the beginning of mankind.

    Which men?

    All men Who Before their own individual natural "Blood Life" ends That They submit To Belief In Thee Heavenly God.

    And ?

    Where in Scriptures did David Reveal His own Belief IN God?

    And ?

    Where in Scriptures did David ever Declare His Rejection Of Belief In God?

    It does not matter If David lived at a Time to See The Word of God come in the Likeness As A Man of the Earth any more than you lived at a Time To have Seen the Word of God come in the Likeness As A man of the Earth,
    For Any man during their own Blood Life to Choose to commit their Belief In God To God.

    What God Has prepared For All men from the Beginning has not Changed.

    God reconciles a Commited man In Belief OF Him TO Him Forever.

    It does not matter IF a man KNOW "HOW" God does that...but simply Trusts That He Does.

    When Jesus arrived on earth He revealed secrets not before known - one such secret revealed Is How God reconciles a man back To Him - in a step by step revelation that is strewn throughout the NT.

    It is simply revealing Gods works within a man....it does not Change what has been required of a man since the beginning of mankind, which has always been, To Believe In God.

    The OT does not call men Saved, why would it?
    That is something they were taught to Hope for, and Trust would Be.

    The OT does not call men Born Again, why would it?
    That is not a Term of revelation given to them.

    Jesus gave us the revelation of How To instantly Be Saved and Born Again By Believing In God and submitting our Life To Him, and thereafter being Baptized with Gods Holy Spirit.

    Seriously Did God Not do the Same for Believing men for 4 thousand years because They didn't Know what it was called?

    Of course He did.

    And we can look back to particular men mentioned in the OT and NT and Know WHO Believed, Who was Saved, Who was Born Again.

    How?
    By a mans own declaration of belief, by a man exalting God.
    And BY
    What God Himself Calls A Man.

    Any one in Scriptures called of God...
    in Grace, believing, Faithful, Beloved, Saint, Friend, accounted righteous, son, etc. IS one having been reconciled to God, whether or not the man fully comprehends it or not.

    Adam, Moses, Aaron, Abraham, Samuel, Isaac, Jacob, David, Mary, Martha, Mary, Lazarus, the 11 chosen disciples, Paul, and others were all Saved and Born Again., the Same for any man who Believes and submitted themselves to God.

    A Saved and Born Again man Will Never say or claim Disbelief In God. He Can't.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  17. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    That's clever, however I did not ask you what I know.

    I don't know you or know what you know or know how you concluded your understanding,
    Those things can only be revealed BY You.

    I simply asked You to reveal What You meant By Your own words?

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  18. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Is the Truth and does not change.
    John 14:6
    Heb 13:8

    His forgiveness was given me- nothing I can do can Change what He has given me.
    John 10: 28
    John 10: 29

    Never having to go ask again?

    No. I cannot give you a scripture that is not in Scripture.

    Yes I have already given you Scripture
    1 John 3:9

    That a man Born OF God Cannot Sin.

    If you trusted to Believe the Word of God you would not be asking me to provide you with Scriptures For "what you call future sins"
    Because there Are No Future Sins possible for a son of God!

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  19. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    You committed to staying in sin?

    You commited to being committed to you own power so you could continue in sin or try not to?

    I didn't.
    I committed my life in belief To God Forever.
    I committed my life To His Power to forever Keep me Free from Sin.

    God Bless
    SBC
     
  20. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    The message of the gospel calls for a radical transformation of life. We don't remain as we are then suddenly after death all is taken care of for us. Acceptance of God’s provision of righteousness in Christ demands the outworking of righteousness in our own lives and the putting away of sin. Romans 7 and much of scripture deals with that. Changing from glory to glory is the process by which we continually see more clearly.

    The Holy Spirit within kindles a fire Matthew 3:11 of love to God and mankind; the ardor of which may be damped or quenched, by refusing it free air to play in. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-19 indicates prayer is the feeding of the flame. The sense of warning and restraint that the Spirit gives is in a still small voice and if too caught up in worldly affairs to detect His voice, you will quench it, and your spiritual life will be impaired. 2 Timothy 2:4
    Grieving the Holy Spirit is much the same thing.Ephesians 4:30 Hardening of the heart would be God's OT terms.

    Song of Solomon 8:6-7
    "Put me like a seal over your heart, Like a seal on your arm. For love is as strong as death, Jealousy is as severe as Sheol; Its flashes are flashes of fire, The very flame of the LORD. "Many waters cannot quench love, Nor will rivers overflow it; If a man were to give all the riches of his house for love, It would be utterly despised."
     
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