Futurist Only "any time rapture" is how is that not just "pre trib"

[Douggg]

I found this on Facebook of all places by a Google search. If this is right, I like this chart as its not too much detail yet shows the different possible rapture points IF THIS IS CORRECT ???

If correct, I can really see Doug's point about an any time rapture!!
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Yes, that chart is correct as far as representing the four traditional rapture timing views and how they have been preached for at least the past 50 years. I am going back to the 1970's, 80's. Before then, I never heard of the subject.

 

[Douggg]

This one is a bit detailed but is called post-trib / pre-wrath. Is it correct for this view?View attachment 300100
The Post Tribulation / Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church: Image

Pre-wrath view, from the pre-wrath advocates who have discussed it with - is of the four traditional views, the most vague. They say before the wrath of God is poured out - but it is never clear to me whether they mean in the bowls of God's wrath - or when Jesus returns and executes his wrath on the wicked and them gathered to make war on Him.

The anytime rapture view by comparison is straight forward - anytime from right this second, up until the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

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If you will notice, the two charts I provided in the opening post, one for pre-trib, and the other for anytime rapture - I provided a "window", the shaded blue area of when the rapture takes place.

The window for pre-trib is from today to the beginning of the 70th week.
The window for anytime rapture view is from today to the day that the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

For mid-trib view that window is not clearly defined, just sometime in the middle of the 70th week.

Same for the post trib view. That window is very narrow it appears to be on the day that Jesus returns.

The prewrath view. Again that window is limited to in the second half, but is vague imo.

I think we need information from the mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath advocaters of what the window is for their particular rapture view.

That's one reason, I have not made a chart of the mid-trib, the pre-wrath, post trib views - is there is no defined window for the rapture that I can ascertain. .

 

[Jamdoc]

Does this correctly depict the pre-wrath rapture timeline?View attachment 300095 50 best ideas for coloring | Matthew 7:15

Pretty close. There's really no consensus as to whether the bowls and trumpets happen simultaneously or in sequence. Pre wrath does interpret Revelation as being 2 narratives of the same events containing different details, the chronology resets at Revelation 12 and starts over with different details. So you have 2 narratives showing tribulation -> rapture -> wrath of God. 1 narrative focuses on the seals and trumpets, the other on the beast and false prophet and the bowls.
I tend to have the trumpets and bowls happening at the same time, in sequence with each other, but interlaced between. IE first trumpet, first bowl, second trumpet, second bowl, etc.
one of the reasons why is some of the trumpet and bowl judgements seem to be connected. especially the 6th and 7th. The 6th Trumpet and 6th bowl are kind of dependent on each other. One clears the way, the other is the teeth, the army that crosses the dried rivers.
But that's not 100%, it could be as the chart has it.

Because of not being settled on this aspect, the ministry of the 2 witnesses is also kind of murky. That chart is one way of doing it, another way I have seen it is that the 2 witnesses begin in the first half, and they're executed just before the 6th seal/rapture, so the 2 witnesses get raptured with the rest rather than get raptured separately.
But the general focus of the 6th seal being sometime between the midpoint and the end of the 70th week and that being the rapture is correct for the position, also putting the first 4 seals before the midpoint, that is also correct.

 

[Jamdoc]

This one is a bit detailed but is called post-trib / pre-wrath. Is it correct for this view?View attachment 300100
The Post Tribulation / Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church: Image

No.. at least it's not a very common viewpoint that the 144,000 are sealed at the midpoint, because in pre wrath the 5th seal is understood to take place after the midpoint. So the 144,000 have a few different interpretations but in most cases they are interpetted to happen in between the 6th and 7th seals. 1 View is like the common pre-trib view of 144,000 Jewish Evangelists, who first see Jesus in the clouds and repent and are saved, they are not taken up in the rapture, but they are sealed and then they evangelize. The second view is similar to this chart in that they're the first 144,000 people to be taken into heaven, the first fruits, also Jewish, and also repenting and accepting Christ when they see Him in the clouds, but also taking place at the 6th seal. They're raptured first under this interpretation because Jesus said the last shall be first (Matthew 20:16)

Pre-wrath view, from the pre-wrath advocates who have discussed it with - is of the four traditional views, the most vague. They say before the wrath of God is poured out - but it is never clear to me whether they mean in the bowls of God's wrath - or when Jesus returns and executes his wrath on the wicked and them gathered to make war on Him.

The anytime rapture view by comparison is straight forward - anytime from right this second, up until the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

It is admittedly probably one of the most complex positions (the only more complex position I've seen is post trib ammillennial which requires making Revelation 7 different narratives and nothing goes in order, and it requires ignoring chapters and verses), because it requires not interpreting Revelation in Chronological order start to finish, but, once you see the duplicated events.. it's hard to read revelation as happening in Chronological order anyway.

As for the wrath of God, it's both the trumpets and the bowls. They are both symbols of the wrath of God.
In Revelation 6:17 the earth dwellers declare that the wrath of God is come. Then the Trumpets happen.
In Revelation 14:19-20 and 15:1 it's the bowls that represent the wrath of God. For Pre wrath they also see Revelation 14 as another view of the 6th seal/rapture. Because you have Jesus on the clouds, and He harvests the earth and that first harvest is not put through the wrath of God, the second harvest is done by an angel and those are the clusters of the vine of the earth (not connected to the true vine) and those are put through the wrath of God.

To us both are the wrath of God, but nothing before the 6th seal is the the wrath of God, it's Satan's wrath.

 

[DavidPT]

I think you meant - anytime before the Great Tribulation is still pre-trib.

However, that (pre-Great Tribulation) is not how the pre-trib rapture has been defined by them have been advocating it for at least the past 50 years. They say pre-trib means before the 7 years of the 70th week begins.

Their term "pre-trib" is actually a misnomer, which is a big cause of the problem. What they should have called it to be consistently with their definition is "pre-70th week".

They also use the pre-70th week timing to say no-one (Christians) will know who the Antichrist is because the church will not be here when he confirms the covenant to begin the 70th week.

There is no great tribulation during the first half of the 70th week. That doesn't begin until the 2nd half of the 70th week. Any rapture prior to or at the beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week is Pretrib no matter what one tries to call it instead. And this includes midtrib. Midtrib has the rapture occurring in the middle of the 70th week, the beginning of the great trib, not in the middle of the great trib instead.


Beginning of 70th week(no great trib as of yet---3.5 years in length)---Middle of 70th week(The great trib begins---3.5 years in length)--End of 70th Week(The great trib ends)


Here is where your anytime rapture is on the timeline---Beginning of 70th week(no great trib as of yet---3.5 years in length)---Anytime from today to when the 70th week begins all the way up to right before the 2nd half of the 70th week begins. That is Pretrib since this means the rapture can occur anytime from right now all the way up to before the great trib begins.

As to midtrib, this is where it would be on the timeline above----Middle of 70th week(The great trib begins---3.5 years in length). And notice that it happens at the start of the great trib, not in the middle of it instead. If the great trib is 42 months in length, the middle of that would be 21 months. Midtrib is clearly Pretrib since there is no such thing as a 7 year great trib, and that midtrib, just like pretrib, has the rapture occuring before the great trib begins.

Pretrib clearly means prior to the great trib, unless one wants to argue that 'pre' doesn't really mean prior to something, where that something is meaning the great trib in this case. Your anytime rapture, pretrib, and midtrib, all clearly have the rapture occurring prior to the start of the great trib, thus all 3 are pretrib..

 

[Jamdoc]

There is no great tribulation during the first half of the 70th week. That doesn't begin until the 2nd half of the 70th week. Any rapture prior to or at the beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week is Pretrib no matter what one tries to call it instead. And this includes midtrib. Midtrib has the rapture occurring in the middle of the 70th week, the beginning of the great trib, not in the middle of the great trib instead.


Beginning of 70th week(no great trib as of yet---3.5 years in length)---Middle of 70th week(The great trib begins---3.5 years in length)--End of 70th Week(The great trib ends)


Here is where your anytime rapture is on the timeline---Beginning of 70th week(no great trib as of yet---3.5 years in length)---Anytime from today to when the 70th week begins all the way up to right before the 2nd half of the 70th week begins. That is Pretrib since this means the rapture can occur anytime from right now all the way up to before the great trib begins.

As to midtrib, this is where it would be on the timeline above----Middle of 70th week(The great trib begins---3.5 years in length). And notice that it happens at the start of the great trib, not in the middle of it instead. If the great trib is 42 months in length, the middle of that would be 21 months. Midtrib is clearly Pretrib since there is no such thing as a 7 year great trib, and that midtrib, just like pretrib, has the rapture occuring before the great trib begins.

It's a bit semantics, when people say pre trib, it's pre 70th week. The reason is an error in designating the entire 70th week as "the Tribulation Period" or "The 7 year tribulation". It is a source of a lot of their error.
I think Douggg's "any time rapture" is a more correct "pre trib" rapture
I don't know ANYONE who purports "mid trib" which you are correct, is also a pre trib rapture but one where they know an exact date (so it can basically be tossed out, like I said, I don't know anyone who believes in mid trib, they might be thinking along the lines of pre wrath as "mid trib")

 

[DavidPT]

It's a bit semantics, when people say pre trib, it's pre 70th week. The reason is an error in designating the entire 70th week as "the Tribulation Period" or "The 7 year tribulation". It is a source of a lot of their error.
I think Douggg's "any time rapture" is a more correct "pre trib" rapture
I don't know ANYONE who purports "mid trib" which you are correct, is also a pre trib rapture but one where they know an exact date (so it can basically be tossed out, like I said, I don't know anyone who believes in mid trib, they might be thinking along the lines of pre wrath as "mid trib")

If anyone has the rapture occurring in the middle of 70th the week, and even if they call it prewrath, it is still Pretrib since the rapture would precede the beginning of the great trib. There are some views that see the 7th trumpet meaning the middle of the 70th week, rather than the end of it instead. If the 7th trumpet is the middle of the 70th week, what happens in the middle of the 70th week? The beginning of the great trib is what happens. And if some are calling this prewrath, it is still pretrib if the great trib follows the rapture. Prewrath is not pretrib if meaning somewhere towards the end of the great trib. But it is pretrib if meaning at the start of the great trib, though. Pretrib obviously means not being present on the earth during any of the great trib.

 

[Navair2]

I have. And what do you see there?

I see the exact order of everything leading up to the end, right before He comes.
Follow the "thens" and the "immediately after"s.
Start at verse 5 and continue to verse 31 in Matthew 24, for example.

I see a "Post Trib", "Pre-Millennial" second coming, with the "Rapture" taking place immediately after the tribulation of those days ( Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27 ).
In other words, there is no "anytime Rapture".

The catching away of His elect ( both "asleep" and alive ) takes place after 3.5 years of the worst plagues and disasters that the Lord will throw at those who hate Him and refuse to repent.

This 3.5 years ( 42 months ), is preceded by an equal period of peace on earth ( a 7 year treaty with Israel that is broken at the halfway point ) and is "triggered" by Anti-Christ committing the abomination of desolation, where he sits in the mercy seat of the third temple and declares himself to be God.

It is followed by the "Rapture" of His people, who catches them up as He is coming down, who then reign with Christ from Jerusalem ( Zechariah 14 and several others ), sitting on the throne of His earthly father David for 1,000 years.

Then comes the Judgment,
followed by the new heavens, new earth and the New Jerusalem.

 

[Navair2]

@Jeffwhosoever :
For the record, I am a so-called "Calvinist" as well.

 

[Navair2]

There is no great tribulation during the first half of the 70th week. That doesn't begin until the 2nd half of the 70th week.

I agree.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I am a futurist, but the doctrine on premillennial pretribulation rapture (including the idea of 7 years tribulation and 1,000 literal years millennial kingdom) is found nowhere in the prophecy of God's Word. It is an extrabiblical idea that has been promulgated in some churches. Something the Lord has NOT said, and that His Word teaches against everything that I am reading on this blind leading the blind thread.

If anyone is really interested in researching the question, here is an article that will throw pretribulation rapture or the so-called premillennial-based "anytime rapture" out of the window.

 

[Douggg]

There is no great tribulation during the first half of the 70th week. That doesn't begin until the 2nd half of the 70th week. Any rapture prior to or at the beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week is Pretrib no matter what one tries to call it instead. And this includes midtrib. Midtrib has the rapture occurring in the middle of the 7 0th week, the beginning of the great trib, not in the middle of the great trib instead.

David, you are the one trying to call the traditional "pretrib rapture view" as being something else.... in order to compensate for its flaws.

You keep attempting to redefine what has always been the meaning of the "pre-trib" rapture - which is that it was never defined by its proponents as being before the beginning of the great tribulation - but before the beginning of the 70th week.

The rapture timing view you are creating to compensate for the traditional "pre-trib rapture" flaws is what should be called - the "pre-great tribulation rapture view".

And this includes midtrib. Midtrib has the rapture occurring in the middle of the 7 0th week, the beginning of the great trib, not in the middle of the great trib instead

The great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. In Daniel 12:11-12, there are 1335 days of the great tribulation - which would place it's beginning on day 1185 of the 2520 day 7 years.

So the great tribulation does not begin at the beginning of the 2nd half, but 75 days before the 2nd half begins.

The mid-trib view claims the rapture takes place during the middle of the 7 years. They are also defining the entire years as "the tribulation", as does post trib. The defining of the entire 7 years as being "the tribulation" instead of saying mid-70th week is part of the misnomer issue that stemmed from the teachings coming out of the Late Great Planet Earth book era.

Anyway the mid-trib view restricts the timing of the rapture to be in the middle of the seven years - so their view is that the rapture could not happen today, for example.

Same problem with the post-trib view. Neither are anytime rapture views, because they declare that the rapture cannot happen anytime - taking away from the immanency of the rapture.

 

[Jamdoc]

If anyone has the rapture occurring in the middle of 70th the week, and even if they call it prewrath, it is still Pretrib since the rapture would precede the beginning of the great trib. There are some views that see the 7th trumpet meaning the middle of the 70th week, rather than the end of it instead. If the 7th trumpet is the middle of the 70th week, what happens in the middle of the 70th week? The beginning of the great trib is what happens. And if some are calling this prewrath, it is still pretrib if the great trib follows the rapture. Prewrath is not pretrib if meaning somewhere towards the end of the great trib. But it is pretrib if meaning at the start of the great trib, though. Pretrib obviously means not being present on the earth during any of the great trib.

Pre wrath starts the Great Tribulation at the 5th seal. So the 6th seal takes place after the Great Tribulation. Pre Wrath just doesn't consider the trumpets and bowls to be "Tribulation" (Satan's wrath) but rather God's Wrath.

 

[DavidPT]

David, you are the one trying to call the traditional "pretrib rapture view" as being something else.... in order to compensate for its flaws.

You keep attempting to redefine what has always been the meaning of the "pre-trib" rapture - which is that it was never defined by its proponents as being before the beginning of the great tribulation - but before the beginning of the 70th week.

The rapture timing view you are creating to compensate for the traditional "pre-trib rapture" flaws is what should be called - the "pre-great tribulation rapture view".



The great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. In Daniel 12:11-12, there are 1335 days of the great tribulation - which would place it's beginning on day 1185 of the 2520 day 7 years.

So the great tribulation does not begin at the beginning of the 2nd half, but 75 days before the 2nd half begins.

The mid-trib view claims the rapture takes place during the middle of the 7 years. They are also defining the entire years as "the tribulation", as does post trib. The defining of the entire 7 years as being "the tribulation" instead of saying mid-70th week is part of the misnomer issue that stemmed from the teachings coming out of the Late Great Planet Earth book era.

Anyway the mid-trib view restricts the timing of the rapture to be in the middle of the seven years - so their view is that the rapture could not happen today, for example.

Same problem with the post-trib view. Neither are anytime rapture views, because they declare that the rapture cannot happen anytime - taking away from the immanency of the rapture.

Maybe I'm just wanting to be technical about things. Since pre means before something, that something being the trib, technically speaking then, any rapture before the great trib is pre the great trib, IOW is pretrib.

But even your anytime rapture is not really meaning anytime if it can only happen up to a certain time, but not also beyond a certain time as well. It can't also happen post trib, right? It can only happen pretrib, right?

 

[Jamdoc]

I see the exact order of everything leading up to the end, right before He comes.
Follow the "thens" and the "immediately after"s.
Start at verse 5 and continue to verse 31 in Matthew 24, for example.

I see a "Post Trib", "Pre-Millennial" second coming, with the "Rapture" taking place immediately after the tribulation of those days ( Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27 ).
In other words, there is no "anytime Rapture".

The catching away of His elect ( both "asleep" and alive ) takes place after 3.5 years of the worst plagues and disasters that the Lord will throw at those who hate Him and refuse to repent.

This 3.5 years ( 42 months ), is preceded by an equal period of peace on earth ( a 7 year treaty with Israel that is broken at the halfway point ) and is "triggered" by Anti-Christ committing the abomination of desolation, where he sits in the mercy seat of the third temple and declares himself to be God.

It is followed by the "Rapture" of His people, who catches them up as He is coming down, who then reign with Christ from Jerusalem ( Zechariah 14 and several others ), sitting on the throne of His earthly father David for 1,000 years.

Then comes the Judgment,
followed by the new heavens, new earth and the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 6 goes in the same order as Matthew 24.
and note Matthew 24 doesn't have signs of water turning to blood, demon locusts, etc.
The last sign given in Matthew 24 is the darkening of the sun and moon.
That's 6th seal.
not traditional post trib (which is really "post wrath") which is at the end of the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

But even your anytime rapture is not really meaning anytime if it can only happen up to a certain time, but not also beyond a certain time as well. It can't also happen post trib, right? It can only happen pretrib, right?

pretrib? I think you mean pre-great tribulation.

anyway, pre-transgression of desolation act. The transgression of desolation act will take place before the great tribulation begins.

Jesus did use the word "anytime" in Luke 21:34-36, which I chose "anytime" instead of "pre" anything.

 

[Navair2]

Revelation 6 goes in the same order as Matthew 24.
and note Matthew 24 doesn't have signs of water turning to blood, demon locusts, etc.
The last sign given in Matthew 24 is the darkening of the sun and moon.
That's 6th seal.
not traditional post trib (which is really "post wrath") which is at the end of the 70th week.

I see Matthew 24 and Mark 13 as being the template into which most of the rest of the end time prophesies fit, like "blocks", if you will.

 

[Jamdoc]

I see Matthew 24 and Mark 13 as being the template into which most of the rest of the end time prophesies fit, like "blocks", if you will.

and the sign Jesus gives that signals the end of the Tribulation and just before His coming, is the 6th seal.

 

[DavidPT]

pretrib? I think you mean pre-great tribulation.

anyway, pre-transgression of desolation act. The transgression of desolation act will take place before the great tribulation begins.

Jesus did use the word "anytime" in Luke 21:34-36, which I chose "anytime" instead of "pre" anything.

Why would Luke 21 end with the rapture rather than the end of this age, that assuming the end of that chapter is not meaning the 2nd coming but is meaning the rapture that occurs years earlier? Especially the fact that the disciples also inquired about the end of this age.That's a bizarre way to end that chapter. Apparently, the same is true in both Matthew 24 and Mark 13 as well, that Jesus ends those chapters with the rapture and not the end of this age instead, that too assuming the end of these chapters are not meaning the 2nd coming but are meaning the rapture that occurs years earlier.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I am a futurist, but the doctrine on premillennial pretribulation rapture (including the idea of 7 years tribulation and 1,000 literal years millennial kingdom) is found nowhere in the prophecy of God's Word. It is an extrabiblical idea that has been promulgated in some churches. Something the Lord has NOT said, and that His Word teaches against everything that I am reading on this blind leading the blind thread.

How do you interpret 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NASB)?

15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Revelation 3:10 (NASB)
10 Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of the testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth.

Daniel 9:27 (NASB)
27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”

Daniel 12: 10-13 (NASB)
10 Many will be purged, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. 11 And from the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who is patient and attains to the 1,335 days! 13 But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will rest and rise for your allotted portion at the end of the age.”

Revelation 20:4-6 (NASB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years