Futurist Only "any time rapture" is how is that not just "pre trib"

Douggg

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The issue came up, asking me the above question.

The pre-trib rapture requires that the rapture MUST take place before the 70th week of Daniel 9 begins.

Differently the anytime rapture considers that the rapture MAY take place before the 70th week of Daniel 9 - just as pretrib - but different from pretrib, the anytime rapture view contends that the rapture may happen after the 70th week begins. i.e. anytime before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

pre-trib - before the Antichrist confirms the covenant to begin the 70th week.
anytime - before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.


Here are two diagrams showing the difference between the pre-trib rapture view and the anytime rapture view.


upload_2021-6-2_20-25-3.jpeg





upload_2021-6-2_20-19-44.jpeg
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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I am currently leaning in this direction because Scripture is conflicting with the timing thus making an "anytime" rapture seem the most appropriate, and it fits with the warning that we cannot know the date or the hour of the rapture.

Doug is a man after my own heart. I love his drawings!
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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I am currently leaning in this direction because Scripture is conflicting with the timing thus making an "anytime" rapture seem the most appropriate, and it fits with the warning that we cannot know the date or the hour of the rapture.

Doug is a man after my own heart. I love his drawings!
And it truly fits with the doctrine of imminence.
 
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DavidPT

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The issue came up, asking me the above question.

The pre-trib rapture requires that the rapture MUST take place before the 70th week of Daniel 9 begins.

Differently the anytime rapture considers that the rapture MAY take place before the 70th week of Daniel 9 - just as pretrib - but different from pretrib, the anytime rapture view contends that the rapture may happen after the 70th week begins. i.e. anytime before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

pre-trib - before the Antichrist confirms the covenant to begin the 70th week.
anytime - before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.


Here are two diagrams showing the difference between the pre-trib rapture view and the anytime rapture view.


View attachment 300090




View attachment 300088


What does the word 'pre' mean to you anyway? Does it mean the same thing it means to some of the rest of us? To some of the rest of us it means before something. Does your anytime rapture happen before something, during something, or after something, that something being the great tribulation, in this case?

According to your anytime rapture chart, it clearly happens before the great trib. That makes it pre the great trib, that makes it pretrib. Pretrib means anytime before the start of the great trib. How can it not mean that? Do you think it could mean post trib instead? Do you know of one single person who proposes that the rapture happens before the great trib, that they claim this is post trib? Probably not, right? And if it can't be post trib, what else can it be if not Pretrib? It can't be midtrib either. Mid means in the middle of something, that something being the GT, in this case. The beginning of the GT is not the middle of it, it is the beginning of it.
 
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Douggg

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What does the word 'pre' mean to you anyway? Does it mean the same thing it means to some of the rest of us? To some of the rest of us it means before something. Does your anytime rapture happen before something, during something, or after something, that something being the great tribulation, in this case?
David, it is not pre by itself, just like it is not Anti by itself in Antichrist.

The "pre-trib" rapture view is a term created by its' originators. It is not a term that came directly out of the bible. I don't know who was the first to use the term. But the timing of that labeled rapture view has been around as long as I can remember as meaning before the 70th week of Daniel 9 begins.

The anytime rapture view, I came up with, so I know what it means. One of the reason I came up with it is because one of the shortcomings of the pre-trib rapture view is in its definition of the 70th week as being "the tribulation". Which is misleading because for a big part of the first half of the 7 years the world is not in tribulation, but is saying peace and safety.

So what actually starts the great tribulation? It is the setting up of the abomination of desolation image placed on the temple mount. The image of the beast.

The person thus has to become the beast before the AoD is made. From Revelation 13, we are informed that the person is mortally wounded and healed before becoming the beast.

It then becomes a matter of finding out why the person is mortally wounded and healed. Which that information is in Ezekiel 28:1-10 of why God has the person killed - for claiming to be God. When does the person claim to have become God? It is when he commits the act in 2Thessalonians 2:4.

Can we figure out a day in the 7 years when 2Thessaalonians 2:4 takes place - no, we can't, not enough information given. ....but what we can assess is that it must be before the 1335 days that the AoD begin. So sometime in the first half of the 7 years, likely around the 3 year mark, the person will go into the temple sit, claim to have achieved God-hood. It is the transgression of desolation act in Daniel 8. Triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord in 1Thessalonians5, starting unexpectedly like a thief.

The rapture must take place before then, from what it says in 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

The reason I did not choose "pre-transgression of desolation act" is because many people do not really understand what the transgression of desolation is; as most people know primarily about the abomination of desolation and think in that term. And the transgression of desolation act cannot be pinpointed to a specific day on the timeline in the 7 years, although it will be sometime in the first half. And it would not convey what I think is the key element regarding the rapture to keep in mind - that it can happen "anytime".

Also "pre" is actually not a term used by Jesus in conjunction with the rapture event - but "anytime" is in Luke 21:34-36.

So in summary, "pre" can mean before - in any application, in any subject matter. But the "pre-trib" rapture joint term has a defined definition - that has been well established in the realm of eschatology views as being before the 70th week begins.

You could say by being pre-70th week - it is pre-GWT judgment, pre-wrath of God begins, pre-abomination of desolation, etc etc - but that is not what the pre-trib rapture originators are preaching about it, and what it is commonly and widely known to be. Their point is that the rapture must take place before the tribulation which they are defining as the 70th week of Daniel 9 begins.
 
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Navair2

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I am currently leaning in this direction because Scripture is conflicting with the timing thus making an "anytime" rapture seem the most appropriate, and it fits with the warning that we cannot know the date or the hour of the rapture.
Read Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
 
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ewq1938

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Actually pre-trib means that the rapture happens before the Great Tribulation starts. Nothing about the 70th week really matters in it's definition. Anytime before the rapture is still pre-trib.
 
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Jamdoc

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The issue came up, asking me the above question.

The pre-trib rapture requires that the rapture MUST take place before the 70th week of Daniel 9 begins.

Differently the anytime rapture considers that the rapture MAY take place before the 70th week of Daniel 9 - just as pretrib - but different from pretrib, the anytime rapture view contends that the rapture may happen after the 70th week begins. i.e. anytime before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

pre-trib - before the Antichrist confirms the covenant to begin the 70th week.
anytime - before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.


Here are two diagrams showing the difference between the pre-trib rapture view and the anytime rapture view.


View attachment 300090




View attachment 300088

What is the scripture basis for this position?
I understand that for pre trib the scripture base is 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and an interpretation that the entire 70th week IS the wrath of God (where Pre Wrath uses the same verse but designates the wrath of God as beginning at Revelation 6:17)

Pre Trib and Mid Trib, do not separate the 70th week and consider it all 1 "seven year tribulation" (term NEVER used in scripture), Post Trib some call it all 1 "Seven year tribulation" but some post trib, like Pre Wrath, do use the words of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse that the Great Tribulation only begins after the AoD at the midpoint, which I believe is more correct, because that is the terms Jesus uses.
 
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ewq1938

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Jeffwhosoever

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I found this on Facebook of all places by a Google search. If this is right, I like this chart as its not too much detail yet shows the different possible rapture points IF THIS IS CORRECT ???

If correct, I can really see Doug's point about an any time rapture!!
upload_2021-6-3_1-57-3.png

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Jeffwhosoever

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Jeffwhosoever

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The post-trib part is wrong because it shows the rapture happening before the Great Tribulation is actually over. Most likely an innocent error.
Is it because the arrows were too fat and the green up arrow is not directly above the black vertical line that is supposed to represent the very end of tribulation? In other words, the post-trib rapture means really post trib, as in the day the tribulation comes to the end, the Lord comes and we are raptured that same day, according to post-trib rapture theory? I think the error you refer to is that instead of two down red arrows, the left arrow should not exist and the right red arrow meeting at the word church should align with the green up arrow and both of those should align with the black vertical line signifying the end of tribulation?
upload_2021-6-3_2-1-46.png
 
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Douggg

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Actually pre-trib means that the rapture happens before the Great Tribulation starts. Nothing about the 70th week really matters in it's definition. Anytime before the rapture is still pre-trib.
I think you meant - anytime before the Great Tribulation is still pre-trib.

However, that (pre-Great Tribulation) is not how the pre-trib rapture has been defined by them have been advocating it for at least the past 50 years. They say pre-trib means before the 7 years of the 70th week begins.

Their term "pre-trib" is actually a misnomer, which is a big cause of the problem. What they should have called it to be consistently with their definition is "pre-70th week".

They also use the pre-70th week timing to say no-one (Christians) will know who the Antichrist is because the church will not be here when he confirms the covenant to begin the 70th week.
 
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