Annihilationism?

[elman]

Your Soul is not immortal it is only you heart and mind and cannot exist without the body, but what am I telling you for, you believe in eternal life that is subject to death!

Show me scripture that shows we kill our own "Immortal Mortality"
Oh that's right you can't because you don't believe that the bible was written by God anyway!

You think the parts you don't agree with were just put there by man!

Ezekiel 18. We kill our own soul with our own sin. Why do you think Jesus taught we have to be reborn spiritually if we have not died spiritually?

 

[elman]

He's not alone there.. I do not believe the bible was written by God, In fact I am pretty sure it was written by man and also pretty sure that it has undergone some alterations over the years.

That said I do believe that the truth rings out over the confusion.

I agree and well said.

 

[elman]

Your Soul is not immortal it is only you heart and mind and cannot exist without the body, but what am I telling you for, you believe in eternal life that is subject to death!

Show me scripture that shows we kill our own "Immortal Mortality"
Oh that's right you can't because you don't believe that the bible was written by God anyway!

You think the parts you don't agree with were just put there by man!

Yes I think the parts that says God is evil or lies or is not trustworthy or unloving was put there by men.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
I am not convinced Paul was talking about wicked men. I think he may have been talking about righteous men, but we all fall short.

It is not an exageration to say that all men have sinned unless you include infants in the defintion of men and then it is an exageration and not literally true. Saying there is none righteous, no not one is an exageration unless in this context righteous means perfectly righteous having never sinned, then it is true none of us have been perfectly righteous. Ezekieal and other scriptures do not seem to always see righteousness as being perfect and John in First John seems to allow for sins that are not unto death. I think what it is really saying is that our attempts to be righteous are so pitifully weak as to be almost non existent. I think it is exagerating to make that point.

Yet Paul says every man will be tried and saved, which I take to mean every man. The bible also says [I forget which verse] that there will be a resurection of the just and the unjust, so if this is true then the idea that the unjust [e.g. the wicked] will not be raised must ignore or reinterpret this scripture and as we have talked about before it makes no sense to raise one from the dead just to destroy them.

Quote:
I agree there may be degrees of reward.

I believe at this point that all wickedness is punished by death, so I am not convinced there are degrees of punishment.

How do you account for the few stripes/many stripes then? Or where Paul talks about those who have built hay and stubble suffering loss yet being saved? Sure sounds like degrees of punishment to me.

Quote:
If God has created us with eternal spiritual life and physical life both of which is subject to death, and has created us in such a way that when we turn to wickedness instead of righteouosness, we kill the spiritual part of us; but then, if we turn from wickedness and back to righteousness, God will recreate us spiritually; I don't see it is going to be the same destiny for the wicked who do not turn from wickedness and do not get recreated spiritually but remain spiritually deceased.

I am not saying God destroys anyone. I am saying that God may infact not grant eternal life to some wicked people who may have done a small amount of good at some time in their life.

First, it makes no sense to say eternal anything subject to death as anything which is subject to death is not eternal.

Second we are all wicked to some degree, even the best most loving of us are still subject to error and sin. This must be purged to be pure in the sight of God and if he can do it for anyone he can do it for everyone as Paul gives testamony of.

I don't see the Creator under obligation to give further life because His creation was not absolutly evil. Just being evil rather than righteous wouold seem to me to be sufficient to not gift someone with eternal life. I don't have to decide what sliver of good is enough or what sliver of evil is not enough to tip the balance and result in eternal life or no eternal life. God gets to decide that. I do see the problem of a righteous life that ends on a point of evil and I think that is covered again in the sin unto death idea verses sins not unto death. The Christian teachings seem to support the idea of an evil life that ends on a righteousn point being enough for God to decided to gift eternal life. Again I will leave that to God, but I preached a funeral sermon once that was an attempt to comfort the family relying on this idea of the worker that arrived late getting the same pay i.e. eternal life.
Quote:
I don't see an obligation on the part of God to keep the wicked man alive spiritually after he has killed himself with his own sin and has not repented, simply because he has not achieved absolute evil.

IMO Spiritual death is a nonsensical term.

But it was not God that destroyed the man, but the man himself.

Many people are killed in many different ways, most have not destroyed themselves and most do not die of thier own freewill either most go down fighting to live.

Quote:
God does not destroy the good in us. We destroy the spiritual existence in us, God is there ready to recreate and help us home like the prodical son, but I don't see any obligation by God or promise from God that He will come to the pig pen of death we have created for ouselves and force us to return home.

I think God created us with the ability to kill our own soul, i.e. spiritual existence with our own sin.

I assume that you agree that all of us have some good in us? Do you also agree that all good things come from God? That without him we can do nothing? I see very little if any support in the bible for any doctorines of eternal torment or destruction that indicates we do it to ourselves of our own freewill, what I do see is that they shall be bound hand and foot and taken away, they shall be cast out, they shall be cast in, they shall be delievered unto satan, they shall be sent into the fire. All of these and many others show no freewill choice but a forcable action by the judge and or his minions.

I don't think it was talking about the wicked. Ezekeil said the wicked would not live, but the righteous will live. If a man has killed his spiritual existence when he dies, there is no spirit to return to God, because he has killed it.

Actually if you read it closely it is talking about all things in which exists the breath of life [spirit] both man and beast.

Quote:
He will gladly greet us as we try to get home, and He will kill the fat calf for us, but come to the pig pen and drag us home? I don't think so.

I don't believe that interpretation. I think it more properly is saying we cannot come to God simply on our own goodness and must have the help of God and the grace of God and the forgiveness of God to come to Him, but nothing makes sense to me if I am not given the ability to chose to come to God or not come to Him. If that is true what is the point of this world, this existence, and the pain and suffering in it?

That is not really an interpretation it is the actual Greek text unless you mean to say that the Greek is/was actually interpreted resulting in the Greek texts that we have now.

The word is translated as draw in our KJV and that word has come to mean to modern people a gentle nudge but what it actually means is to move by force from ahead or above.

 

[elman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
I am not convinced Paul was talking about wicked men. I think he may have been talking about righteous men, but we all fall short.

It is not an exageration to say that all men have sinned unless you include infants in the defintion of men and then it is an exageration and not literally true. Saying there is none righteous, no not one is an exageration unless in this context righteous means perfectly righteous having never sinned, then it is true none of us have been perfectly righteous. Ezekieal and other scriptures do not seem to always see righteousness as being perfect and John in First John seems to allow for sins that are not unto death. I think what it is really saying is that our attempts to be righteous are so pitifully weak as to be almost non existent. I think it is exagerating to make that point.

Yet Paul says every man will be tried and saved, which I take to mean every man.

The Bible also says the wicked will die. I tak that to men not live.

The bible also says [I forget which verse] that there will be a resurection of the just and the unjust, so if this is true then the idea that the unjust [e.g. the wicked] will not be raised must ignore or reinterpret this scripture and as we have talked about before it makes no sense to raise one from the dead just to destroy them.

I agree it makes no sense to raise from the dead and then destroy. I think they are not raised and destroyed. I think they are simply not raised. This is not the only scripture that I ignore or reinterpret. All people seem to me to do about the same thing except they don't admit it. Most people emphasize scriptures that say what they believe and ignor scriptures that do not support their theology. I think most universalist ignore or reinterpret the scriptures that say the wicked shall die, they shall not live.


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I agree there may be degrees of reward.

I believe at this point that all wickedness is punished by death, so I am not convinced there are degrees of punishment.

How do you account for the few stripes/many stripes then? Or where Paul talks about those who have built hay and stubble suffering loss yet being saved? Sure sounds like degrees of punishment to me.

I cannot account for the stripes. You have me there. The hay and stubble could refer to the righteous man that is barely righteous. He has loving works but they are weak and do not put him in a strong position with God.

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If God has created us with eternal spiritual life and physical life both of which is subject to death, and has created us in such a way that when we turn to wickedness instead of righteouosness, we kill the spiritual part of us; but then, if we turn from wickedness and back to righteousness, God will recreate us spiritually; I don't see it is going to be the same destiny for the wicked who do not turn from wickedness and do not get recreated spiritually but remain spiritually deceased.

I am not saying God destroys anyone. I am saying that God may infact not grant eternal life to some wicked people who may have done a small amount of good at some time in their life.

First, it makes no sense to say eternal anything subject to death as anything which is subject to death is not eternal.

I do not see why God is unable to create us mortal, meaning a time limited physical existence and spiritually alive that is not limited by time but with a contingency that we are able to kill ourselves if we fail to be loving.

Second we are all wicked to some degree, even the best most loving of us are still subject to error and sin. This must be purged to be pure in the sight of God and if he can do it for anyone he can do it for everyone as Paul gives testamony of.

I don't question God's power to save everyone. I question He will save everyone including the wicked.


Quote:
I don't see the Creator under obligation to give further life because His creation was not absolutly evil. Just being evil rather than righteous wouold seem to me to be sufficient to not gift someone with eternal life. I don't have to decide what sliver of good is enough or what sliver of evil is not enough to tip the balance and result in eternal life or no eternal life. God gets to decide that. I do see the problem of a righteous life that ends on a point of evil and I think that is covered again in the sin unto death idea verses sins not unto death. The Christian teachings seem to support the idea of an evil life that ends on a righteousn point being enough for God to decided to gift eternal life. Again I will leave that to God, but I preached a funeral sermon once that was an attempt to comfort the family relying on this idea of the worker that arrived late getting the same pay i.e. eternal life.
Quote:
I don't see an obligation on the part of God to keep the wicked man alive spiritually after he has killed himself with his own sin and has not repented, simply because he has not achieved absolute evil.

IMO Spiritual death is a nonsensical term.

Surely you believe God is able to grant spiritual life and is able to destroy spiritual life and is able to give someone else the power to destroy spiritual life.

Quote:
But it was not God that destroyed the man, but the man himself.

Many people are killed in many different ways, most have not destroyed themselves and most do not die of thier own freewill either most go down fighting to live.

It appears to me God has made us able to disconnect from Him and He is the only source of life. A disconnection is suicide. We all if we live long enough do it however and if we are to be reconnect to the source of live, we must have the help of the Creator to recreate us spiritually alive. This is the rebirth that is part of the teaching of Jesus.


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God does not destroy the good in us. We destroy the spiritual existence in us, God is there ready to recreate and help us home like the prodical son, but I don't see any obligation by God or promise from God that He will come to the pig pen of death we have created for ouselves and force us to return home.

I think God created us with the ability to kill our own soul, i.e. spiritual existence with our own sin.

I assume that you agree that all of us have some good in us? Do you also agree that all good things come from God?

I don't agree that I have nothing to do with my own loving actions. When I am loving, I create righteousness. Yes it is still from God in the sense that my existence and my ability to love is from God.

That without him we can do nothing?

Unless He empowers us to be able to love and therefore become creators of righteousness or creators of wickedness and evil if we are unloving.

I see very little if any support in the bible for any doctorines of eternal torment or destruction that indicates we do it to ourselves of our own freewill, what I do see is that they shall be bound hand and foot and taken away, they shall be cast out, they shall be cast in, they shall be delievered unto satan, they shall be sent into the fire. All of these and many others show no freewill choice but a forcable action by the judge and or his minions.

There is a great deal of scripture that teaches we are able to love and if we do not the consequences are bad and if we do the consequences are good. Ezekiel 18, we kill our own soul with our own sin. First John a failure to love is a failure to be a child of God who is love.


Quote:
I don't think it was talking about the wicked. Ezekeil said the wicked would not live, but the righteous will live. If a man has killed his spiritual existence when he dies, there is no spirit to return to God, because he has killed it.

Actually if you read it closely it is talking about all things in which exists the breath of life [spirit] both man and beast.

I don't think it is saying our dogs go to heaven. I could be wrong.


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He will gladly greet us as we try to get home, and He will kill the fat calf for us, but come to the pig pen and drag us home? I don't think so.

I don't believe that interpretation. I think it more properly is saying we cannot come to God simply on our own goodness and must have the help of God and the grace of God and the forgiveness of God to come to Him, but nothing makes sense to me if I am not given the ability to chose to come to God or not come to Him. If that is true what is the point of this world, this existence, and the pain and suffering in it?

That is not really an interpretation it is the actual Greek text unless you mean to say that the Greek is/was actually interpreted resulting in the Greek texts that we have now.

I don't believe God is responsible for my wickedness and I don't bellieve God forces me to love Him and others. Will God help me in my efforts to love Him and others? Yes.

The word is translated as draw in our KJV and that word has come to mean to modern people a gentle nudge but what it actually means is to move by force from ahead or above.

Forced love is not love. It is rape.

 

[martymonster]

Yes I think the parts that says God is evil or lies or is not trustworthy or unloving was put there by men.

Are you sure?

Maybe the parts about Him being loving a patient and kind were put there by men!

If God didn't make lying spirits, maybe He didn't really make Satan the way He is, and maybe orthodoxy is right and Satan thru His own freewill, even though He was the fairest angel of all chose to rebel against God even though He lived in paradise and there was no evil.

Hmm, what's to stop it happening again?

Oh I know We'll choose to serve God out of our own freewill because We will know better.

Hey maybe that was the plan all along!


If God didn't make lying spirits and Satan and it was by Satans freewill that He fell, then God is not all knowing and wise, He doesn't no the beginning from the end, He just lied about it!

or did man lie about that part?


You better get sorting elman, because a awful lot of scripture that you have to chuck out!

 

[Soul Searcher]

The Bible also says the wicked will die. I tak that to men not live.

Actually it says that all men will die. It also says that all men will be raised from the dead and that all men will live. I could give you verses if you want

I agree it makes no sense to raise from the dead and then destroy. I think they are not raised and destroyed. I think they are simply not raised. This is not the only scripture that I ignore or reinterpret. All people seem to me to do about the same thing except they don't admit it. Most people emphasize scriptures that say what they believe and ignor scriptures that do not support their theology. I think most universalist ignore or reinterpret the scriptures that say the wicked shall die, they shall not live.

As I pointed out before, the scriptures say that all men shall die and that all men shall live. I ignore neither, I instead reconcille them together with the other scriptures with the logical conclusion being that all men will die, be raised, corrected, purified and live

I cannot account for the stripes. You have me there.

The hay and stubble could refer to the righteous man that is barely righteous. He has loving works but they are weak and do not put him in a strong position with God.

The verse seems to indicate that even if all of a mans work be burned in the fire the man shall still be saved.

Surely you believe God is able to grant spiritual life and is able to destroy spiritual life and is able to give someone else the power to destroy spiritual life.

Yes I believe that God can give and take as he pleases, yet whatever is eternal is eternal, if it ceases to exist then it is not nor was it ever eternal.

Forced love is not love. It is rape.

I don't recall saying anything about forced love. God has his ways to drag us to where he wants us to be and we will love him as a result once we understand the big picture.

 

[Evergreen48]

You said:
It makes no sense to me that if Christ was punished for the sins of everyone, including those who are being called the wicked, why would they be punished further. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit

Being put to death in the flesh is a good way of of explaining.

I have always been under the impression that in 1 Peter 3:18 where it speaks of one being 'put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit', that it was Christ who was spoken of there. In fact, I am certain that this is the case because the scripture continues on to say that Christ went by this same spirit by which he was quickened and preached to the spirits in prison.

Most people have the idea that tribulation means wrath, judgment, torment and vengeance. The Greek word is thlipsis, meaning "pressure." It is derived from the word thilbo that means "to crowd, to be pressed upon in a narrow place
." Ray Prinzing wrote, "Pressures are used to PRESS US INTO THE KINGDOM! Trying to pray ourselves out of these distresses only defeats their very purpose. But when, in the midst of our pressures, we pray that God would bring us deeper into Himself, then these very straits have served their purpose — for they have channeled us into Him."

I don't mean to sound harsh and critical, but I think this comment by Ray Prinzing, whoever he/she is, is probably the most nonsensical thing I have ever heard from anyone claiming to have spiritual understanding. From what source does this person derive such a conclusion that pressures are used to 'press us into the kingdom', and that we should not try to pray ourselves out of distress? What ever happened to the prayer that Jesus taught His disciples? "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil' . I have often wondered how those who do not know or trust God to deliver them out of the stress and the many pressures and problems that life withouit faith in God offers, stay sane. I think some do not. Many fold under the pressures, become alcoholics or drug addicts, or even take their own lives. And so it would seem that these people do not get 'pressed into the kingdom' after all.

"In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world!" I hear Christ warn His beloved saints in these awesome words, "Yea, and A-L-L that live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." To all who would reign with Him upon His throne He says, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him." To those who seek the glory, power, and honor of the kingdom of God He declares, "Ye must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." And Paul adds his voice of admonition, "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience…"

These words were spoken long ago to an entirely different group of Christians. We Christians of this day and time do not know what trouble and persecution is. We are living in a time of peace and tranquility compared to what the early Christians had to endure. How blessed we are to have the freedom that we have! And I know plenty of godly people who are not suffering any persecution at all for living a godly life. I don't mean to sound self righteous here, but I'm one of those people, though certainly I am far from being perfect, and have all the flaws that any human has, I do try to live a godly life. And I have never suffered any percecution because of it either!

ows better than He exactly what is needed to transform His sons from corrupt and carnal creatures of the dust to beings of divine understanding and heavenly glory. I have strong confidence in the ability of my heavenly Father to bring me to perfection and maturity as a son of God. My Father is a great son-raiser! He was a colossal success with His firstborn! Anyone who can raise a Son like Jesus Christ knows exactly what He is doing and can surely handle you and me. "We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings…wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him the name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth" (Heb. 2:9-10; Phil. 2:9-10).

This great work of perfection is done by the Holy Spirit leading us through the counsels, corrections, and disciplines of the Father. As the pressures and persecutions of this world system come against those who are moving on in the Spirit of God, the very test and fire is our purifying fire! It purges out the dross, making us smaller and smaller in our own eyes, and meek and humble in the mighty life of God being wrought in us. As we surrender more and more to Christ in us, it makes our natural man perish more and more until he is completely dead so that Christ alone can come forth in us.

It was Christ who was made perfect by His sufferings. Christ is the captain of our salvation! We can suffer from now until 'doom's day', and it will not perfect us or make us complete. We are perfected or completed only through Jesus Christ who took it upon Himself to suffer for us. IMO, trying to connect Philippians 2:9-10 and Hebrews 2:9-10 was a really bad idea, and proves absolutely nothing.

Peter expressed the truth of it this way: "Beloved, do not be amazed and bewildered by the fiery ordeal which is taking place to test your quality, as though something strange — unusual and alien to you and your position — were befalling you" (I Pet. 4:12, Amplified). "THINK IT NOT STRANGE," the King James Version says — do not be amazed and bewildered, do not be astonished, do not be alarmed or incredulous as though the experience is foreign, unwarranted, unexpected, abnormal, a surprise. It is not an accident — it was PLANNED. It is not a surprise — it was PURPOSED.

— Jesus is being to you what He promised He would be — a REFINER’S FIRE! You are in the crucible of His purpose.

The fiery ordeal that the early Christians went through was certainly foreknown to God, but not planned or purposed. But certainly He did use the evil things that these unbelievers did to the Christians as a means to make better and more steadfast Christians out of them, and also as a means to separate the sincere from the insincere. "He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved." And so yes, I suppose it could be said that there was a refiners fire of a sort going on at that time in the history of Christianity.
But once again the author of this article has used 1 Peter 4:12 out of its historical context, as there is no way that this could apply to Christians out here in this day and time. For religious freedom abounds! And are we so ungrateful for this blessing that we go around in 'sackcloth and ashes', claiming persecutions that do not exist?

Psalmist says, "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, PURIFIED SEVEN TIMES" (Ps. 12:6). Seven is the number of perfection! It reveals the great truth that God’s own nature will be produced in the fire. He will heat up the furnace until you have been perfectly cleansed and purified, nothing remaining but HIMSELF. That which the Lord is receiving unto Himself cannot be of an inferior quality to Himself. The gold — ah, it is HIM. The silver — it is of HIM. How marvelous is the grace by which He has birthed us out of His own Spirit, making us "partakers of the divine nature" (II Pet. 1:4).

Psalms 12:6 "Sayings of Jehovah [are] pure sayings; Silver tried in a furnace of earth refined sevenfold" equals: 'seven is the number of perfection! It reveals the great truth that God’s own nature will be produced in the fire. He will heat up the furnace until you have been perfectly cleansed and purified, nothing remaining but HIMSELF. That which the Lord is receiving unto Himself cannot be of an inferior quality to Himself. The gold — ah, it is HIM. The silver — it is of HIM. How marvelous is the grace by which He has birthed us out of His own Spirit, making us "partakers of the divine nature" (II Pet. 1:4). ' I don't think so!

Have you thought about what or WHO that 'furnace of earth was? Here's a hint: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Those who love the Lord and long to see His purpose fulfilled in their lives, are willing to accept Him as a refiner’s fire, as a thresher of wheat, as a presser of olives, as a crusher of grapes, and as a scourging Father! We accepted Him as Savior, Baptizer, Healer, and Blessed; now we are accepting Him as the Lord of the fires! Our Father has made us willing to embrace the means He uses to perfect us. He perfects us in the crucible of adversities. The tribulations He sends us are not punishments for past failures, but divine tools to conform us to His image. Paul’s thorn in the flesh, Job’s loss of all his possessions, family, and health, Joseph’s betrayal by his brethren, his being sold as a slave, and later his being falsely accused and thrown into prison, were all for a divine purpose.

I love the Lord. But I do not see Him as a 'thresher of wheat, as a presser of olives, as a crusher of grapes, and as a scourging Father!'. I know Him to be a kind and loving Father who will most kindly help me in all of the troubles and trials that this life has to offer. But will He chastise me when I am disobedient? Oh yes, He will, and has, from time to time during my 68 year trek here on this earth. And believe you me, I've got the welts from that chastening rod to prove it! ! But how wonderful the rest, when I have learned my lesson from that chastisement, and am at last back in fellowship with Him again.

(Sorry another cut and paste from J Preston Eby)

Yes, I see that.
Benoni, have you ever thought to lay aside J Preston Eby's works for a time, and seek understanding for yourself? You might be surpised at how much more there is beyond the writings of J Preston Eby. I believe if you knocked, it would be Christ who opened the door for you, and not J Preston Eby.

Blessings -
Evergreen48

 

[Harlin]

Yes I think the parts that says God is evil or lies or is not trustworthy or unloving was put there by men.

Hi Elman,

I agree with this too. I believe that the parts of the Bible that says God is a murderer, ie: commanded the people to murder thousands of people are placed into the scriptures by men who want people to believe that God thinks it's alright to kill those who don't agree with you.

Anything that doesn't line up with the life and teachings of Jesus can safely be disregarded I believe. Jesus came to reveal the Father and He did perfectly, His nature, His character and His will. Jesus was gentle and loving, never forcing Himself on anyone. God is like that too.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[martymonster]

As I have said before it is the intentions of one heart that's make one's actions evil, not the actions themselves!

God is good and does not do anything out of ill will.
God's only has the best plan for mankind so nothing He does could be described as evil.

you can not possibly comprehend the things that He has to contend with running a world full of people all of who's every daily lives must line up in accordance with His will (not desire) and that is why there is stuff like this written!

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding.

And if you were to ask Him about it, He would tell you this!

Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you have understanding.
Job 38:5 Who has determined the measures thereof, if you know? or who has stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 On what are its foundations fastened? or who laid its cornerstone;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:9 When I made the clouds its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling band,
Job 38:10 And prescribed bounds for it, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 And said, Thus far shall you come, but no farther: and here shall your proud waves be stopped?
Job 38:12 Have you commanded the morning since your days began; and caused the dawn to know its place;
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is turned as clay under the seal; and they stand out as a garment.
Job 38:15 And from the wicked their light is withheld, and the uplifted arm shall be broken.
Job 38:16 Have you entered into the springs of the sea? or have you walked in search of the depths?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been revealed unto you? or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18 Have you perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if you know it all.
Job 38:19 Where is the way where light dwells? and as for darkness, where is its place,
Job 38:20 That you should take it to its domain, and that you should know the paths to its home?
Job 38:21 Do you know it, because you were born then? or because the number of your days is great?
Job 38:22 Have you entered into the treasury of the snow? or have you seen the treasury of the hail,
Job 38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24 By what way is the light distributed, which scatters the east wind upon the earth?
Job 38:25 Who has divided a channel for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
Job 38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, in which there is no man;
Job 38:27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender grass to spring forth?
Job 38:28 Has the rain a father? or who has begotten the drops of dew?
Job 38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the frost from heaven, who has given it birth?
Job 38:30 The waters harden like a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31 Can you bind the cluster of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Job 38:32 Can you bring forth Mazzaroth in its season? or can you guide Arcturus with its children?
Job 38:33 Know you the ordinances of heaven? can you set their dominion in the earth?
Job 38:34 Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover you?
Job 38:35 Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto you, Here we are?
Job 38:36 Who has put wisdom in the inward parts? or who has given understanding to the heart?
Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? or who can pour out the water skins of heaven,
Job 38:38 When the dust grows into clumps, and the clods cleave fast together?
Job 38:39 Will you hunt the prey for the lion? or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
Job 38:40 When they crouch in their dens, and abide in their lairs to lie in wait?
Job 38:41 Who provides for the raven its food? when its young ones cry unto God, they wander about for lack of food.

I could provide more too, but whats the point, you will probably just decide that it was put there by man because you don't agree with it anyway!

 

[Soul Searcher]

As I have said before it is the intentions of one heart that's make one's actions evil, not the actions themselves!

Totally agree

God is good and does not do anything out of ill will.
God's only has the best plan for mankind so nothing He does could be described as evil.

Agree with this also.

you can not possibly comprehend the things that He has to contend with running a world full of people all of who's every daily lives must line up in accordance with His will (not desire) and that is why there is stuff like this written!

3 in a row

There are some things in the bible that do raise a flag though. For example instances in the OT where God supposedly told his followers to slaughter thier neighbors. This really reeks of a power hungry ruler using Gods name to convince his people to do his bidding.

Several things written into the books of the law do not seem to fit in with other things spoken of God by the prophets and Jesus. The idea that people should be stoned to death for sins is one pretty good example. The notion that a free mans life is worth the life of another man but the life of a servant is worth 30 pieces of silver is another. There are several of these.

I often think of the verse in the NT where Jesus said his sheep know his voice. When I read the bible there are parts that just leap off the page at me and I know that it is the words of God in truth, then there are others that make me cringe. Perhaps these things were altered during copy, translation, interpretation. Perhaps they were intentionally altered or perhaps they were just written incorrectly to start with. I do not know which.

 

[No Swansong]

Totally agree


Agree with this also.

3 in a row

There are some things in the bible that do raise a flag though. For example instances in the OT where God supposedly told his followers to slaughter thier neighbors. This really reeks of a power hungry ruler using Gods name to convince his people to do his bidding.

Several things written into the books of the law do not seem to fit in with other things spoken of God by the prophets and Jesus. The idea that people should be stoned to death for sins is one pretty good example. The notion that a free mans life is worth the life of another man but the life of a servant is worth 30 pieces of silver is another. There are several of these.

I often think of the verse in the NT where Jesus said his sheep know his voice. When I read the bible there are parts that just leap off the page at me and I know that it is the words of God in truth, then there are others that make me cringe. Perhaps these things were altered during copy, translation, interpretation. Perhaps they were intentionally altered or perhaps they were just written incorrectly to start with. I do not know which.

Just a quick respectful question. So how do you decide what is truly the Words of God and which aren't? Doesn't this (what you mention in your post) constitute making God in your own image? Again I mean no ill will I am truly interested in how you decide.

 

[Fireinfolding]

For example instances in the OT where God supposedly told his followers to slaughter thier neighbors. This really reeks of a power hungry ruler using Gods name to convince his people to do his bidding.

I thought of this same thing Soul Searcher,

What came to me was this... given the truth of Peters vision being NOT the animals but concerning the Gentiles, it was said to him...

Acts 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; KILL, and EAT.

We know God wasnt telling Peter to literally kill the gentiles and neither did he do that either, has anyone consider this?

I got to check my words...

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Soul Searcher]

Just a quick respectful question. So how do you decide what is truly the Words of God and which aren't?

Very carefully

Seriously though, the bible does say that we should prove all things, hold fast to that which is good and abstain from all appearance of evil.

Doesn't this (what you mention in your post) constitute making God in your own image? Again I mean no ill will I am truly interested in how you decide.

It is not something that I can easily explain beyond to say that I let the spirit guide me.

 

[Evergreen48]

Very carefully

Seriously though, the bible does say that we should prove all things, hold fast to that which is good and abstain from all appearance of evil.

It is not something that I can easily explain beyond to say that I let the spirit guide me.

Are you sure you still belong down here with the rest of us poor misguided souls, Soul Searcher?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Are you sure you still belong down here with the rest of us poor misguided souls, Soul Searcher?

Where else would I be

 

[Harlin]

hello,

As I have said before it is the intentions of one heart that's make one's actions evil, not the actions themselves!

Just because you have said it (obviously repetitively) doesn't mean that it is automatically true, or that I neccessarily agree.

Murder is murder, regardless of what the circumstances are. I could convince myself that if my child was terminally ill and suffering immensely that killing him would be okay because I am putting him out of his misery. However, our lives aren't our own, God has brought us with a very hefty price, and we belong to Him.

Good intentions don't count for anything when you are disobeying God's immutable law. Is it okay to steal food from your neighbour even when you are too poor to buy it?.....no, its not, Jesus never stole even when He was hungry and had nothing, he prayed to His Father, "give us this day our daily bread". God is our dependence, not ourselves. God provides all our needs.

God is good and does not do anything out of ill will.
God's only has the best plan for mankind so nothing He does could be described as evil.

I agree, however, I believe men have attributed actions to God that have not come from God. Like the slaughterings of the O.T, the killing of woman and children and men in entire towns. The raping of young battle trophy girls, the list goes on and on (is this the best for those mankind?). God is good, he doesn't have an "evil" side, and none of these things are good. If we reflect the character of God, then would we do those same things?

Honestly, when is a sin not a sin? Why have the commandments if the "intentions of ones heart" are going to guide us? I thought they were our guide.

The world had such a perverted idea of God's character that Jesus had to come to reveal Him to everyone.

As for the quotes from Job, what's your point there?

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Soul Searcher]

Just because you have said it (obviously repetitively) doesn't mean that it is automatically true, or that I neccessarily agree.

Murder is murder, regardless of what the circumstances are.

Murder by definition is dependant upon circumstances.

I could convince myself that if my child was terminally ill and suffering immensely that killing him would be okay because I am putting him out of his misery.

Legally mercy killing is murder, although I can certianly see where it is the right thing to do in some cases.

The Essene gospel states "Thou shalt not take the life of any living creature for profit nor for your pleasure" Then goes on to give two exceptions where killing is permitted. 1: Self defense or defense of others. 2: When the creature/person is suffering with no hope of cure.

Good intentions don't count for anything when you are disobeying God's immutable law.

The letter of the law...

Honestly, when is a sin not a sin? Why have the commandments if the "intentions of ones heart" are going to guide us? I thought they were our guide.

Remember where Jesus said to lust after your neighbors wife was as if you commited adultry and to bear a grudge against your neighbor as if you committed murder. Yes the intentions of ones heart mean a great deal.

 

[Evergreen48]

Where else would I be

I don't know.

The Essene gospel states "Thou shalt not take the life of any living creature for profit nor for your pleasure" Then goes on to give two exceptions where killing is permitted. 1: Self defense or defense of others. 2: When the creature/person is suffering with no hope of cure.

The Essene gospel also states the following:

1. AND in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God, unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Ioseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

2. Now Ioseph was a just and rational Mind, and he was skilled in all manner of work in wood and in stone. And Mary was a tender and discerning Soul, and she wrought veils for the temple. And they were both pure before God; and of them both was Iesu-Maria who is called the Christ.

3. And the angel came in unto her and said, Hail, Mary, thou that art highly favoured, for the Mother of God is with thee: blessed art thou among women and blessed be the fruit of thy womb.

4. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God and, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb and bring forth a child, and He shall be great and shalt be called a Son of the Highest.

5. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

6. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her The Holy Spirit shall come upon Ioseph thy Spouse, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, O Mary, therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Christ, the Child of God, and his Name on earth shalt be called Iesu-Maria, for he shall save the people from their sins, whosoever shall repent and obey his Law.

7. Therefore ye shall eat no flesh, nor drink strong drink, for the child shall be consecrated unto God from its mother’s womb, and neither flesh nor strong drink shall he take, nor shall razor touch his head.

8. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God no thing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

9. And in the same day the angel Gabriel appeared unto Ioseph in a dream and said unto him, Hail, Ioseph, thou that art highly favoured, for the Fatherhood of God is with thee. Blessed art thou among men and blessed be the fruit of thy loins.

10. And as Ioseph thought upon these words he was troubled, and the angel of the Lord said unto him, Fear not, Ioseph, thou Son of David, for thou hast found favour with God, and behold thou shalt beget a child, and thou shalt call his name Iesu-Maria for he shall save his people from their sins.

11. Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was written in the prophets saying, Behold a Maiden shall conceive and be with child and shall bring forth a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God Within Us.

12. Then Ioseph being raised from sleep did as the angel had bidden him, and went in unto Mary, his espoused bride, and she conceived in her womb the Holy One.

 

[Soul Searcher]

And that has what to do with the topic ? Or are you saying that since you do not agree with that part of the book we should just discard the whole thing?