Annihilationism?

[elman]

So you just pick and choose which parts of the bible you wanna believe then eh?, which means you wanna believe that God destroys 90% of the people who have ever lived!

I suggest you go examine your belief system and your heart for the reasons for why you believe what you do!

I pick and chose what men teach me to be true or not true, yes. I have no clue where your statment about God destroys 90% of the people who have ever lived comes from. I am comfortable with my belief system and my heart and my God who is loving, but I never expect my belief system to be unchangable. I continue to try to see God more clearly. I do not believe in an evil or cruel God who is to blame for all the killings of Hitler etc.

 

[Benoni]

I understand and agree about “a book written by men and in which the contents were chosen by men and copied by men and translated by men” is limited; at the same time the Bible though the revelation of God's Spirit is where I put my trust; this is God's Word; the Logos. There are many levels of love; and Christ is the answer; or God,s anointig.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I do not believe that there are any who are "righteous" nor any who are "wicked" rather the masses are a combination of both some leaning more toward righteous and some leaning more toward wicked but both co-exist in each and everyone of us.

The point being will God destroy the good along with the evil or will God seperate the good from the evil within us. Can we not be both sheep and goat?

 

[martymonster]

Somewhere in the middle of the muder of all the Jews I had the right and perhaps the duty to say that is wrong. God did not kill all those Jews through Hitler. It was not the will of God that they be slaughtered. It was the will of God that Mother Theresa be loving to the people in India, but God did not force her to do that either. She made that choice and that is what made it a loving action. Hitler also made his choices without be forced to do so and that is what made it sin and wrong and unloving.

No that's what you wanna believe elman!

ever read the old testament?

God is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow.

You want to believe that we all have freewill to choose to be loving or not because then you can take credit for not being a murderer or a criminal or anyone else that you feel it's alright to look down on.

do you take credit for being so "loving" toward your fellow man?

What if you had grown up being beating and molested and verbally abused by someone everyday of your childhood, would you be so loving then?

What about the person that that happened to do they deserve to be annihilated because they grew up in a situation where they were shown only hate?

You need to think about the implications of what it is you believe and what you say.

 

[elman]

=martymonster;30761848]No that's what you wanna believe elman!

Yes I want to believe the Creator is loving and trustworthy.

ever read the old testament?

Yes.

God is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow.

Yes. He has always been loving and trustworthy.

You want to believe that we all have freewill to choose to be loving or not because then you can take credit for not being a murderer or a criminal or anyone else that you feel it's alright to look down on.

I understand I have not been loving and have not used my free will to earn the right to eternal life and that if I get eternal life it will be a gift from God. I also understand I am not to be the judge of others and God will do the judging.

do you take credit for being so "loving" toward your fellow man?

Nope.

What if you had grown up being beating and molested and verbally abused by someone everyday of your childhood, would you be so loving then?

Probably not.

What about the person that that happened to do they deserve to be annihilated because they grew up in a situation where they were shown only hate?

God is just. He will judge justly and lovingly.
I don't believe your being unloved as a child justifies your being unloving to others, but I don't have to judge that.

You need to think about the implications of what it is you believe and what you say.

You need to think about the implications of what it is you believe and what you say. God is good. That means God is not evil.

 

[martymonster]

Yes I want to believe the Creator is loving and trustworthy.

Yes.

Yes. He has always been loving and trustworthy.

I understand I have not been loving and have not used my free will to earn the right to eternal life and that if I get eternal life it will be a gift from God. I also understand I am not to be the judge of others and God will do the judging.
Nope.


Probably not.
God is just. He will judge justly and lovingly.
I don't believe your being unloved as a child justifies your being unloving to others, but I don't have to judge that.
You need to think about the implications of what it is you believe and what you say. God is good. That means God is not evil.

Rewording what you say does not change what you are actually saying or the implications thereof!

 

[elman]

I do not believe that there are any who are "righteous" nor any who are "wicked" rather the masses are a combination of both some leaning more toward righteous and some leaning more toward wicked but both co-exist in each and everyone of us.

The point being will God destroy the good along with the evil or will God seperate the good from the evil within us. Can we not be both sheep and goat?

We are all wicked and righteous. I agree, I do not agree that makes us all the same deserving of the same and facing the same consequences and destiny regarless of how good or how evil we have been. I don't see the promises of further opportunites after this life to love and receive eternal life with God. If it is there, good, but I don't see the scripture saying it is there and it is not reasoinable it is there, if we were created for the purpose of God to have loving beings around Him. If we are not loving beings and do not learn to be loving beings in this life, I see no reason to expect God to want us close to Him since God is a loving being. Of course God can do anything He wishes and He can have us reborn here or placed on another planet and try again, but it seems to me it would be just as easy to simply create more beings and give them an opporturnity as to recreate those who have been wicked the first time and I see no obligation to the wicked for God to save them from non existence.

 

[Soul Searcher]

We are all wicked and righteous. I agree, I do not agree that makes us all the same deserving of the same and facing the same consequences and destiny regarless of how good or how evil we have been.

I think you missunderstand what I am talking about. It is quite possible even likely that each of us will face unique consequences, this is hinted at if not directly stated many times throughout the pages of the bible, few vs many stripes for example, reap what you sow, judged by the judgment you use, the measure you meet being measured unto you again and so forth. Yet there is no reason to think that God will destroy the good in us. Sure some may have only a small portion of good others may abound with good thier fate will be different yet both can and will be saved. Remember wwhere paul says that every man will be tried by fire he will suffer loss and/or gain reward but the man will be saved as by fire.

 

[martymonster]

We are all wicked and righteous. I agree, I do not agree that makes us all the same deserving of the same and facing the same consequences and destiny regarless of how good or how evil we have been. I don't see the promises of further opportunites after this life to love and receive eternal life with God. If it is there, good, but I don't see the scripture saying it is there and it is not reasoinable it is there, if we were created for the purpose of God to have loving beings around Him. If we are not loving beings and do not learn to be loving beings in this life, I see no reason to expect God to want us close to Him since God is a loving being. Of course God can do anything He wishes and He can have us reborn here or placed on another planet and try again, but it seems to me it would be just as easy to simply create more beings and give them an opporturnity as to recreate those who have been wicked the first time and I see no obligation to the wicked for God to save them from non existence.

Why would God need to place us on another planet to try again?

Don't you think He can change us at the judgment?

don't you think His firery judgments can remove the dross and hay and stubble or any of the wickedness we have not overcome in this life?

He did it to Paul in a flash of blinding light, and He was the worst sinner of all time, don't you think that is a little unfair when there are those who have never been shown the same grace?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Why would God need to place us on another planet to try again?

Don't you think He can change us at the judgment?

don't you think His firery judgments can remove the dross and hay and stubble or any of the wickedness we have not overcome in this life?

He did it to Paul in a flash of blinding light, and He was the worst sinner of all time, don't you think that is a little unfair when there are those who have never been shown the same grace?

A very good point

 

[elman]

Rewording what you say does not change what you are actually saying or the implications thereof!

What I am acturally saying is God is Good, all the time.

 

[martymonster]

God put us here on this planet in a weakened moral state to train us in the overcoming of evil, so that we would know the difference between good and evil.

He doesn't annihilate people for failing their exams, because they don't fail their their exams anyway!, it is God and God alone who decides who will pass and who will fail.

 

[elman]

I think you missunderstand what I am talking about. It is quite possible even likely that each of us will face unique consequences, this is hinted at if not directly stated many times throughout the pages of the bible, few vs many stripes for example, reap what you sow, judged by the judgment you use, the measure you meet being measured unto you again and so forth. Yet there is no reason to think that God will destroy the good in us. Sure some may have only a small portion of good others may abound with good thier fate will be different yet both can and will be saved. Remember wwhere paul says that every man will be tried by fire he will suffer loss and/or gain reward but the man will be saved as by fire.

I am not convinced Paul was talking about wicked men. I think he may have been talking about righteous men, but we all fall short. I agree there may be degrees of reward. If God has created us with eternal spiritual life and physical life both of which is subject to death, and has created us in such a way that when we turn to wickedness instead of righteouosness, we kill the spiritual part of us; but then, if we turn from wickedness and back to righteousness, God will recreate us spiritually; I don't see it is going to be the same destiny for the wicked who do not turn from wickedness and do not get recreated spiritually but remain spiritually deceased. I don't see an obligation on the part of God to keep the wicked man alive spiritually after he has killed himself with his own sin and has not repented, simply because he has not achieved absolute evil. God does not destroy the good in us. We destroy the spiritual existence in us, God is there ready to recreate and help us home like the prodical son, but I don't see any obligation by God or promise from God that He will come to the pig pen of death we have created for ouselves and force us to return home. He will gladly greet us as we try to get home, and He will kill the fat calf for us, but come to the pig pen and drag us home? I don't think so.

 

[elman]

God put us here on this planet in a weakened moral state to train us in the overcoming of evil, so that we would know the difference between good and evil.

He doesn't annihilate people for failing their exams, because they don't fail their their exams anyway!, it is God and God alone who decides who will pass and who will fail.

God put us on this plane with the ability to love and the opportunity to mature into loving beings. He does not annilhlate anyone. We kill our own souls with our own sin. If we turn to God, He will recreate us spiritually and gift us with eternal spiritual life. It is God and God alone who will decide which human beings He will gift with eternal life. He has indicated it will not be the unloving, but the loving that has any hope of such a gift. Matt 25:31 and following.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I am not convinced Paul was talking about wicked men. I think he may have been talking about righteous men, but we all fall short.

Paul was talking about men, every man, all men. There are none who are righteous according to Paul not one, therefore we are all wicked to a degree but I also believe that just as none are righteous none are wicked.

I agree there may be degrees of reward.

Degrees of reward in both the positive and negative sense.

If God has created us with eternal spiritual life and physical life both of which is subject to death, and has created us in such a way that when we turn to wickedness instead of righteouosness, we kill the spiritual part of us; but then, if we turn from wickedness and back to righteousness, God will recreate us spiritually; I don't see it is going to be the same destiny for the wicked who do not turn from wickedness and do not get recreated spiritually but remain spiritually deceased.

So you are saying that God will infact destroy the good along with the bad ? Somehow this just does not make sense to me. It's like if a person has done good then bad that the good they have done is ignored and the bad punished whereas the ones who have done bad then good will be rewarded for the good and the bad ignored. this makes no sense to me. The only logical thing is that both the good and the bad is rewarded accordingly and that if there is even one small sliver of good in a man that good must be preserved.

I don't see an obligation on the part of God to keep the wicked man alive spiritually after he has killed himself with his own sin and has not repented, simply because he has not achieved absolute evil.

But by destroying the man the good is also destroyed that is within the man.

God does not destroy the good in us. We destroy the spiritual existence in us, God is there ready to recreate and help us home like the prodical son, but I don't see any obligation by God or promise from God that He will come to the pig pen of death we have created for ouselves and force us to return home.

I do not think it is possible for anyone to destroy the spiritual existance in us other than God himself as he is the source of that spirit.

The bible says upon physical death the spirit returns to God who gave it. There is no option here it's just the way it is.

He will gladly greet us as we try to get home, and He will kill the fat calf for us, but come to the pig pen and drag us home? I don't think so.

The bible also says that no one can come to Jesus unless the father drag them.

 

[martymonster]

God put us on this plane with the ability to love and the opportunity to mature into loving beings. He does not annilhlate anyone. We kill our own souls with our own sin. If we turn to God, He will recreate us spiritually and gift us with eternal spiritual life. It is God and God alone who will decide which human beings He will gift with eternal life. He has indicated it will not be the unloving, but the loving that has any hope of such a gift. Matt 25:31 and following.

Your Soul is not immortal it is only you heart and mind and cannot exist without the body, but what am I telling you for, you believe in eternal life that is subject to death!

Show me scripture that shows we kill our own "Immortal Mortality"
Oh that's right you can't because you don't believe that the bible was written by God anyway!

You think the parts you don't agree with were just put there by man!

 

[Soul Searcher]

Your Soul is not immortal it is only you heart and mind and cannot exist without the body, but what am I telling you for, you believe in eternal life that is subject to death!

Show me scripture that shows we kill our own "Immortal Mortality"
Oh that's right you can't because you don't believe that the bible was written by God anyway!

You think the parts you don't agree with were just put there by man!

He's not alone there.. I do not believe the bible was written by God, In fact I am pretty sure it was written by man and also pretty sure that it has undergone some alterations over the years.

That said I do believe that the truth rings out over the confusion.

 

[RailcarRev]

I too agree that the bible was not authored by God. I think that there was definitely Divine inspiration, but inspiration does not always translate 100% from the mind (or spirit) to the pen. That is to say that God may have put the ideas and words into the hearts of those that wrote it, but it was, ultimately, humans holding the pens.

Moreover, the Bible that we know today was put together sometime around 400 AD. It was not, however, well agreed upon by everybody. The early years of Christianity were fraught with theological arguments and fights over who had the "right" version of Christianity. It is obvious who won; and the losers are what became known as the Gnostics.

In my opinion, I would be surprised if some things were not left out, sacrificed to ecumenical politics and bureaucracy.

Peace.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

Interesting conversation, guys!

 

[elman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
I am not convinced Paul was talking about wicked men. I think he may have been talking about righteous men, but we all fall short.

Paul was talking about men, every man, all men. There are none who are righteous according to Paul not one, therefore we are all wicked to a degree but I also believe that just as none are righteous none are wicked.

It is not an exageration to say that all men have sinned unless you include infants in the defintion of men and then it is an exageration and not literally true. Saying there is none righteous, no not one is an exageration unless in this context righteous means perfectly righteous having never sinned, then it is true none of us have been perfectly righteous. Ezekieal and other scriptures do not seem to always see righteousness as being perfect and John in First John seems to allow for sins that are not unto death. I think what it is really saying is that our attempts to be righteous are so pitifully weak as to be almost non existent. I think it is exagerating to make that point.


Quote:
I agree there may be degrees of reward.

Degrees of reward in both the positive and negative sense.

I believe at this point that all wickedness is punished by death, so I am not convinced there are degrees of punishment.


Quote:
If God has created us with eternal spiritual life and physical life both of which is subject to death, and has created us in such a way that when we turn to wickedness instead of righteouosness, we kill the spiritual part of us; but then, if we turn from wickedness and back to righteousness, God will recreate us spiritually; I don't see it is going to be the same destiny for the wicked who do not turn from wickedness and do not get recreated spiritually but remain spiritually deceased.

So you are saying that God will infact destroy the good along with the bad ?

I am not saying God destroys anyone. I am saying that God may infact not grant eternal life to some wicked people who may have done a small amount of good at some time in their life.

Somehow this just does not make sense to me. It's like if a person has done good then bad that the good they have done is ignored and the bad punished whereas the ones who have done bad then good will be rewarded for the good and the bad ignored. this makes no sense to me. The only logical thing is that both the good and the bad is rewarded accordingly and that if there is even one small sliver of good in a man that good must be preserved.

I don't see the Creator under obligation to give further life because His creation was not absolutly evil. Just being evil rather than righteous wouold seem to me to be sufficient to not gift someone with eternal life. I don't have to decide what sliver of good is enough or what sliver of evil is not enough to tip the balance and result in eternal life or no eternal life. God gets to decide that. I do see the problem of a righteous life that ends on a point of evil and I think that is covered again in the sin unto death idea verses sins not unto death. The Christian teachings seem to support the idea of an evil life that ends on a righteousn point being enough for God to decided to gift eternal life. Again I will leave that to God, but I preached a funeral sermon once that was an attempt to comfort the family relying on this idea of the worker that arrived late getting the same pay i.e. eternal life.
Quote:
I don't see an obligation on the part of God to keep the wicked man alive spiritually after he has killed himself with his own sin and has not repented, simply because he has not achieved absolute evil.

But by destroying the man the good is also destroyed that is within the man.

But it was not God that destroyed the man, but the man himself.


Quote:
God does not destroy the good in us. We destroy the spiritual existence in us, God is there ready to recreate and help us home like the prodical son, but I don't see any obligation by God or promise from God that He will come to the pig pen of death we have created for ouselves and force us to return home.

I do not think it is possible for anyone to destroy the spiritual existance in us other than God himself as he is the source of that spirit.

I think God created us with the ability to kill our own soul, i.e. spiritual existence with our own sin.

The bible says upon physical death the spirit returns to God who gave it. There is no option here it's just the way it is.

I don't think it was talking about the wicked. Ezekeil said the wicked would not live, but the righteous will live. If a man has killed his spiritual existence when he dies, there is no spirit to return to God, because he has killed it.


Quote:
He will gladly greet us as we try to get home, and He will kill the fat calf for us, but come to the pig pen and drag us home? I don't think so.

The bible also says that no one can come to Jesus unless the father drag them.

I don't believe that interpretation. I think it more properly is saying we cannot come to God simply on our own goodness and must have the help of God and the grace of God and the forgiveness of God to come to Him, but nothing makes sense to me if I am not given the ability to chose to come to God or not come to Him. If that is true what is the point of this world, this existence, and the pain and suffering in it?