Annihilationism?

[martymonster]

Hello Elman,

I agree with you, there are some circumstances where different actions would be right for some and wrong for others, this is where I believe, different levels of spiritual growth and knowledge come in, however, if we are being led by God's Spirit then the intentions of the heart will always be in accordance with the law, as Jesus kept God's commandments and He was our example, being led fully by the Spirit of His Father. The only thing that I have a problem with is that if one believes that He is being led by the Holy Spirit and he isn't then what do you use as a guideline?...I believe this to be the commandments and the "testimony of Jesus" (Isaiah 8:20) for they are unchanging and they are good.

I don't believe God would require, let alone lead us to do anything that would cause us to transgress His commandments.

God Bless,

Harlin

Keeping the letter is not keeping the Law!

 

[Soul Searcher]

Keeping the letter is not keeping the Law!

 

[Colabomb]

If God is loving, then to believe God is not evil is to believe in the image that is taught by the statment God is loving. It is not making God into any image but it is a consistent search for the nature of God.

How do you know God is loving but by the revelation of Scripture?

 

[elman]

How do you know God is loving but by the revelation of Scripture?

I don't know, but I think that our being created with the ability to love and the knowledge that being loving is good and being unloving is bad is some evidence of the nature of our Creator.

 

[elman]

That's exactly right elman, actions do always follow the intent of the heart!

that's exactly what Jesus taught!

Mar 7:18 And He says to them, "So you* also are without understanding! You* do understand that nothing from outside entering into the person is able to defile him, do you* not?
Mar 7:19 "Because it does not enter into his heart, _but_ into the stomach, and goes out into the latrine, purifying [or, purging] all the foods."
Mar 7:20 But He was saying, "That [which] comes out from the person, that defiles the person.
Mar 7:21 "For from within, out of the heart of people, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, sexual sins, murders,
Mar 7:22 thefts, covetous desires [or, greed], wicked deeds, deceit [or, treachery], flagrant sexual immorality, an evil eye [fig., envy], blasphemy, arrogance, foolishness.
Mar 7:23 "All these evils come out from within and defile the person."


Mat 23:25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are filled with plunder and unrighteousness.
Mat 23:26 "Blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and dish, so that the outside of them becomes clean too.
Mat 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you are like whitewashed tombs which outwardly indeed look well, but inside are filled with dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 "So you too outwardly indeed appear righteous to men, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.1

it's nice we could agree on something for a change!

Yes it is.

 

[elman]

Originally Posted by elman
Originally Posted by elman
The Bible also says the wicked will die. I take that to mean not live.

Yes it is appoint unto man once to die and after that the judgment, which I think is talking about physical death, But Ezekiel 18 says the wicked shall die and not live, but the righteous shall live, which I think is talking about spiritual life and death and is therefore not contradicting the other places.

As I have stated before the term spiritual death is nonsense to me. The spirit is the life force that sustains the body if our spirit dies so does the body. There can be no physical life with spiritual death.

The consequences of sin is death. That is spiritual death since we are all mortals and all die physically weather we sin or not. I think the idea that we can kill our spiritual existence but remain physically alive is consistent with Ezekiel 18 and it explains the death of Adam that occured on the day he sinned, not years later. The life force that sustains us if we are spiritually deceased is the same life force that sustains the other animals who are not spiritually alive.

As to the death and not live, In the OT those deemed as wicked were aoften put to death. E.G. they shall die, they shall not live. The NT tells us that all will die but also that there is a resurection of the just and the unjust. It seems that you are saying this part of the NT is in error and that the unjust shall not be raised.

In Ezekiel 18, after you have killed your own soul with your own sin, you can turn to righteousness and away from wickedness and live and not die. If that is talking about physical death, then after we are physically dead we turn to righteouness? I don't think so and I don't think this is talking about physical death which is the destiny of both the righteous and the wicked.

Quote:
Was not life in the garden eternal until Adam and Eve sinned?

No.. Eternal never ends. Adam died. The story does say that the tree of life was in the garden and indicates that man was expelled from the garden lest he reach out and eat from the tree of life and live forever. So there is no reason to think that Adam was ever anything but mortal.

If Adam was going to die before he sinned what is the point of God telling him that he would die if he sinned.


Quote:
Was it not only at that time that death became part of the story? I see no problem with eternal life being subject to the possibity of ending under certain conditions, that is eternal if those conditions do not occurr, but if they do occur, not eternal.

If Adam had not been expelled and he were to eat from the tree of life then he would live forever. This did not happen though. All of this is of course figurative.

I agree it is figurative and I think the raising of the unjust is figurative also, since I agree there is no point to raising them and then destroying them.


Quote:
Dragging is talking about force. When Jesus says come unto me, He was not making any threats about dragging you if you don't come.

Draw is also talking about force.
He did say that he would draw[drag] all men unto him and that no one can come unless they are drawn[dragged]. Also if the message is as you see it.. e.g. do this or die how is that not to be seen as a threat?

No threat just facts. I think that came from a western movie. I suspect the drawing us to Him is better seen as the help and encouragement we can expect from Him when we turn to Him but I don't think it is saying we have no choice in the matter.

Draw
DRAW, v.t. pret. drew; pp. drawn. [L. It is only a dialectical spelling of drag, which see.]
1. To pull along; to haul; to cause to move forward by force applied in advance of the thing moved or at the fore-end, as by a rope or chain. It differs from drag only in this, that drag is more generally applied to things moved along the ground by sliding, or moved with greater toil or difficulty, and draw is applied to all bodies moved by force in advance, whatever may be the degree of force. Draw is the more general or generic term, and drag, more specific. We say, the horses draw a coach or wagon, but they drag it through mire; yet draw is properly used in both cases.

It can be force but in the case of Jesus I think it is putting our load on Him and letting Him carry us, not forcing us in anyway.

 

[Soul Searcher]

The consequences of sin is death.

Yes.. and all have sinned and all will die. Not a spiritual death but a physical death.

That is spiritual death since we are all mortals and all die physically weather we sin or not.

There are none who do not sin.

I think the idea that we can kill our spiritual existence but remain physically alive is consistent with Ezekiel 18 and it explains the death of Adam that occured on the day he sinned, not years later.

It seems that this is where the concept of spiritual death comes from. In an effort to reconcille the scripture that says in the day that thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely die. Three important thing sof note here. One God knew before hand that Adam would eat of the tree. God did not say if you eat your spirit will die before the sun sets. He said you shalt surely die, or more properly dieing thou shalt die. Three be not ignorant of this one thing.. a day with the lord is as a thousand years... Adam lived just under 1000 years according to the bible. No where do I see any indication that his spirit became dead on that day, not even the tinest little hint of such.

Pro 10:27 The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.

Physical life of the wicked shall be shortened.

The life force that sustains us if we are spiritually deceased is the same life force that sustains the other animals who are not spiritually alive.

Yes that is true, [with the exception of the spiritually alive part] all have one breath [the breath of life also know as the spirit]
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecc 12:8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

Note that the word breath and the word spirit here are the same Hebrew word.

In Ezekiel 18, after you have killed your own soul with your own sin, you can turn to righteousness and away from wickedness and live and not die. If that is talking about physical death, then after we are physically dead we turn to righteouness? I don't think so and I don't think this is talking about physical death which is the destiny of both the righteous and the wicked.

The soul that sinneth it shall die.. This is not talking about a spiritual death. The soul is the individual, the person the creature.

If Adam was going to die before he sinned what is the point of God telling him that he would die if he sinned.

God didn't tell him that he would die if he sinned. God said when you eat of the tree you shall die. Adam was then expelled from the garden wherein was the tree of life that could have granted him eternal life.

I agree it is figurative and I think the raising of the unjust is figurative also, since I agree there is no point to raising them and then destroying them.

What would the unjust refer to if it is figurative? also what would the just refer to since it is reasonable to assume that would also be figurative if the unjust is.

No threat just facts. I think that came from a western movie. I suspect the drawing us to Him is better seen as the help and encouragement we can expect from Him when we turn to Him but I don't think it is saying we have no choice in the matter.

It can be force but in the case of Jesus I think it is putting our load on Him and letting Him carry us, not forcing us in anyway.

I think it is pointless to go any deeper into the draw/drag aspect here, we clearly see it differently.

 

[elman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
The consequences of sin is death.

Yes.. and all have sinned and all will die. Not a spiritual death but a physical death.

But we die physically because we are mortal not because we sinned.

Quote:
That is spiritual death since we are all mortals and all die physically weather we sin or not.

There are none who do not sin.

I suspect there are children and babies who have died who never sinned.

Quote:
I think the idea that we can kill our spiritual existence but remain physically alive is consistent with Ezekiel 18 and it explains the death of Adam that occured on the day he sinned, not years later.

It seems that this is where the concept of spiritual death comes from. In an effort to reconcille the scripture that says in the day that thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely die. Three important thing sof note here. One God knew before hand that Adam would eat of the tree. God did not say if you eat your spirit will die before the sun sets. He said you shalt surely die, or more properly dieing thou shalt die. Three be not ignorant of this one thing.. a day with the lord is as a thousand years... Adam lived just under 1000 years according to the bible. No where do I see any indication that his spirit became dead on that day, not even the tinest little hint of such.

It seem easier for me to handle the statment of God as I do than as you do. It seem apparent to me Adam was not dying until he ate and he was separated from God years before he died physically. I think separation from the only source of lilfe is significant in the discussion of life and death.
Pro 10:27 The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.

Physical life of the wicked shall be shortened.

But this is not always true, is it? Sometimes the wicked live to a ripe old age and the loving die young.


Quote:
The life force that sustains us if we are spiritually deceased is the same life force that sustains the other animals who are not spiritually alive.

Yes that is true, [with the exception of the spiritually alive part] all have one breath [the breath of life also know as the spirit]
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

I think we do reduce ourselves to being the same as the beast when we kill our own soul with our own sin. I don't believe animals spirit goes to God when they die.

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecc 12:8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

Note that the word breath and the word spirit here are the same Hebrew word.

So the one who sins kills his own breath? I don't think so. I think he does kill the breath that God breathing into him that cause him to become a living soul, which did not happen to the other animals. They did not become living souls.

Quote:
In Ezekiel 18, after you have killed your own soul with your own sin, you can turn to righteousness and away from wickedness and live and not die. If that is talking about physical death, then after we are physically dead we turn to righteouness? I don't think so and I don't think this is talking about physical death which is the destiny of both the righteous and the wicked.

The soul that sinneth it shall die.. This is not talking about a spiritual death. The soul is the individual, the person the creature.

You did not deal with the fact it is nonsense if it is talking about physical death and then the dead person turning away from wickedness.


Quote:
If Adam was going to die before he sinned what is the point of God telling him that he would die if he sinned.

God didn't tell him that he would die if he sinned. God said when you eat of the tree you shall die. Adam was then expelled from the garden wherein was the tree of life that could have granted him eternal life.

The eating of the tree was the sin. God said if you eat you die, therefore God was telling him if he sinned he died.



Quote:
I agree it is figurative and I think the raising of the unjust is figurative also, since I agree there is no point to raising them and then destroying them.

What would the unjust refer to if it is figurative? also what would the just refer to since it is reasonable to assume that would also be figurative if the unjust is.

My temporary speculation is that the righteous only rise one time from the dead spiritually and that is when God recreates us spiritually after we have sinned and died spiritually. After that we die physiclly and we are already spiritually at home with God so no rising is needed. Those who do not get recreated do not get resurrected. They are simply left in their non existent state. I think the point of these teachings is that we can live forever with God if we are loving, but if we are not we will be non existent forever and not with God.


Quote:
No threat just facts. I think that came from a western movie. I suspect the drawing us to Him is better seen as the help and encouragement we can expect from Him when we turn to Him but I don't think it is saying we have no choice in the matter.

It can be force but in the case of Jesus I think it is putting our load on Him and letting Him carry us, not forcing us in anyway.

I think it is pointless to go any deeper into the draw/drag aspect here, we clearly see it differently.

I agree. I cannot see the point of creating beings that are not going to be allowed to chose to love their Creator or not. I can see the point of creating beings who are allowed to chose to love therir Creator or not love Him.

 

[Sophia7]

To those who believe in either eternal torment in hell or universalism, how would you explain this text?

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
​

This is a subject that I have thought about a lot lately. I personally believe that the wicked will be annihilated in the final judgment, that they will cease to exist (both body and soul destroyed), and that this is what the Bible refers to as the second death. The biblical evidence for this view seems more compelling to me than for the traditional Christian view of hell, though there are some problematic texts on both sides of the issue.

 

[Soul Searcher]

To those who believe in either eternal torment in hell or universalism, how would you explain this text?

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.​

​

This is a subject that I have thought about a lot lately. I personally believe that the wicked will be annihilated in the final judgment, that they will cease to exist (both body and soul destroyed), and that this is what the Bible refers to as the second death. The biblical evidence for this view seems more compelling to me than for the traditional Christian view of hell, though there are some problematic texts on both sides of the issue.

There are potentially problematic texts for any of the three views.

In the verse you have posted it should be noted that it says he who can destroy both the body and the soul. It does not say he who will or even might but he who can or is able depending on the translation. Any who believe that God is all powerful knows that he can do this but that is not to say it is what he will do. The bible also says that he is unwilling that any should perish. Should we think that he will do what he is unwilling to do simply because he can?

That said I do not see that verse as raising an issue.

 

[Soul Searcher]

This post and the two to follow are part of a larger document that can be found here... http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

The first set of verses we shall consider, teaches the doctrine of eternal torment. I suppose this has been the generally accepted belief of most Christians through the years. The Bible (that is, the English versions of the Scriptures, in common use) teaching is so obvious and definite: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43,44); "Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt.25:41). "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Rev.19:20).

"If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Rev.14:9-11); "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

These and other references, if taken as they read in the above quotations, clearly teach the eternal torment of the wicked.

This is the teaching based upon which I grew up. In fact, I used to teach it in no uncertain terms when I first began to preach. One family withdrew from my old home church during my first pastorate because I taught eternal torment, as the majority of the church also believed. But the time came when I began to think a bit more deeply about the nature of God, and to study more carefully certain other statements of the Holy Bible, at which time a second set of verses were drawn to my attention.

 

[Soul Searcher]

The following texts seem to teach extermination just as clearly as the preceding verses eternal torment: "Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt.3:12). "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt.13:40-42).
Note that the chaff and tares are burned up--not burned forever.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt.10:28).

Again, the wicked are to be gotten rid of, just as bad fish are to be thrown away to decay and disappear, as Jesus taught in Matthew 13:47-50. Similarly: "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption" (2 Pet.2:12); "...who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess.1:9); "...even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

Please note that Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today, though their destruction is spoken of as an example of "eternal fire." If the verses above, too, are taken as they read, then the wicked will be exterminated. And, it must be remembered, these verses are just as Biblical as any others.​

 

[Soul Searcher]

Still another set of verses, however, seems to clearly teach that all men will ultimately be saved: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:16,17). "Love never faileth" (1 Cor.13:8). Wilt God's love for the whole world fail?

"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (Isa.53:6). "Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if One died for all, then were all dead" (2 Cor.5:14).

"And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven" (Col. 1:20). "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto Myself" (John 12 :32).

"Well, then, just as the result of a single transgression is condemnation for all mankind, so also the result of a single deed of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal for all mankind; and if, through the disobedience of one individual, the mass of mankind were made sinners, so also through the obedience of One the mass of mankind will be made righteous" (Rom.5:18,19; Weymouth).

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor.15:20-22). "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Thee" (Psa.22:27). "All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; and shalt glorify Thy name" (Psa.86:9).

"Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" (Isa.45:22,23). "He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied" (Isa.53:11).

Would God's love, infinite in its reach, be satisfied with just a fraction of those for whom Christ travailed in soul? If you paid the purchase price for one hundred acres, would you be satisfied with a deed for only one acre?
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name that is above every name: that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil.2:9-11).

Would a confession wrung out of the lost by compulsion--"writhing in the torments of hell"--be to the glory of God, and could such tormented souls confess Jesus as Lord? "No man can say that Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor.12:3).

"Then cometh the end, when He shalt have delivered up the kingdom to God even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign, until He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, Who did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Cor.15:24-28).

For every verse in the Bible that seems to teach eternal torment or extermination, one can find many verses that teach universal reconciliation. Remember, one text is just as Biblical as another. Unless there is a way to explain them all correctly, we will be left with hopeless confusion. Which one of the three sets of verses would you like to be true?


http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

 

[Fireinfolding]

There are potentially problematic texts for any of the three views.

In the verse you have posted it should be noted that it says he who can destroy both the body and the soul. It does not say he who will or even might but he who can or is able depending on the translation. Any who believe that God is all powerful knows that he can do this but that is not to say it is what he will do. The bible also says that he is unwilling that any should perish. Should we think that he will do what he is unwilling to do simply because he can?

That said I do not see that verse as raising an issue.

Amen Soul Searcher

Mat 10:28 And fear not THEM which kill the body, but are NOT ABLE to KILL THE SOUL: but rather FEAR HIM which IS ABLE to DESTROY both Body and soul IN HELL.

James 4:12 There is ONE lawgiver, who IS ABLE to SAVE and destroy: ((( who art thou ))) that JUDGEST another?

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is NOT come to destroy mens lives, but to SAVE THEM .



Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Evergreen48]

You are entitled to believe as you will, but the quote that I gave was on topic and is in agreement with the original commandments of the OT and the spirit of the law as Jesus explains in the NT.

The following is your quote that you claim was on topic and is in agreement with original commandments of the OT, and the spirit of the law as Jesus explains in the NT.

Legally mercy killing is murder, although I can certianly see where it is the right thing to do in some cases.

The Essene gospel states "Thou shalt not take the life of any living creature for profit nor for your pleasure" Then goes on to give two exceptions where killing is permitted. 1: Self defense or defense of others. 2: When the creature/person is suffering with no hope of cure.

And I do not know what you mean by 'original commandments fo the OT, but I did find the following in your Essene gospel, and was wondering if these passages from it were the ones you were referring to.
Lection 46:
7. AND Iesus said unto them, Behold a new law I give unto you, which is not new but old. Even as Moses gave the Ten Commandments to Israel after the flesh, so also I give unto you the Twelve for the Kingdom of Israel after the Spirit.

8. For who are the Israel of God ? Even they of every nation and tribe who work righteousness, love mercy and keep my commandments, these are the true Israel of God. And standing upon his feet, Jesus spake, saying:

9. Hear O Israel, JOVA, thy God is One; many are My seers, and My prophets. In Me all live and move, and have subsistence.

10. Ye shall not take away the life of any creature for your pleasure, nor for your profit. nor yet torment it.

11. Ye shall not steal the goods of any, nor gather lands and riches to yourselves, beyond your need or use.

12. Ye shall not eat the flesh, nor drink the blood of any slaughtered creature, nor yet any thing which bringeth disorder to your health or senses.

13. Ye shall not make impure marriages, where love and health are not, nor yet corrupt yourselves, or any creature made pure by the Holy.

14. Ye shall not bear false witness against any, nor wilfully deceive any by a lie to hurt them.

15. Ye shall not do unto others, as ye would not that others should do unto you.

16. Ye shall worship One Eternal, the Father-Mother in Heaven, of Whom are all things, and reverence the holy Name.

17. Ye shall revere your fathers and your mothers on earth, whose care is for you, and all the Teachers of Righteousness.

18. Ye shall cherish and protect the weak, and those who are oppressed, and all creatures that suffer wrong.

19. Ye shall work with your hands the things that are good and seemly; so shalt ye eat the fruits Of the earth, and live long in the land.

20. Ye shall purify yourselves daily and rest the Seventh Day from labour, keeping holy the Sabbaths and the Festival of your God.

21. Ye shall do unto others as ye would that others should do unto you.

22. And when the disciples heard these words, they smote upon their breasts, saying: Wherein we have offended. O God forgive us: and may thy wisdom, love and truth within us incline our hearts to love and keen this Holy Law.

23. And Jesus said unto them, My yoke is equal and my burden light, if ye will to bear it, to you it will be easy. Lay no other burden on those that enter into the kingdom, but only these necessary things.

24. This is the new Law unto the Israel of God, and the Law is within, for it is the Law of Love, and it is not new but old. Take heed that ye add nothing to this law, neither take anything from it. Verily I say unto you, they who believe and obey this law shall be saved, and they who know and obey it not, shall be lost.

25. But as in Adam all die so in Christ shall all be made alive. And the disobedient shall be purged through many fires; and they who persist shall descend and shall perish eternally.

(I was also wondering if you believed Jesus said the part that I underlined and colored red?)
Lection 47:
3. It hath been written, Thou shalt not kill, but I say unto you, if any hate and desire to slay, they are guilty of the law, yea, if they cause hurt or torture to any Innocent Creature they are guilty, But if they kill to put an end to suffering which cannot be healed, they are not guilty, if they do it quickly and in love.

In fact much of the Essene gospel agrees word for word with Matthew should we discard all the parts of Matthew that agree with it as well? I see a slippery slope here.

I believe I see something here other than a 'slope' which would be slippery. But no, I don't think we should discard any of the book of Matthew just because a counterfeit version has some of the same writings as the book of Matthew does.

I am curious though why you would take those parts of the Essene gospel as literal and then discard the whole text yet you reinterpret many parts of the bible to fit your doctorine and keep it as being correct Isn't that a double standard?

I don't see any other way except to take what I quoted from the Essene gospel except as literal. The author clearly believes that Joseph was the father of Jesus Christ.
You should show where I have 'reinterpreted many parts of the bible to fit my doctrine'. Otherwise you shoud stop making false accusations.

Perhaps it is the Christian doctorine that is wrong, Did you ever think of that?

I believe what you are really asking here is, 'have I tried the spirits'? And my answer is, 'yes I have.' Can you say the same?

1 John 4:1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."

 

[Soul Searcher]

Yes I have tried the spirits.... and continue to do so

Whether the Essene gospel is legit or a clever forgery I do not know. I see reason to think both ways here but regaurdless there is much good teaching within it's pages and that alone makes it a worthwhile read. The teachings of being merciful to animals for example as well as the statements of different people seeing the truth in different ways and discovering new truths as they grow and understand more and more.

In answer to your questions, yes the verses you hightlighted are in part what I was talking about, there is another somewhere in there that speaks of self defense but I forget now where it is. As to the one you underlined,I do not know, there is more clearification of that one in the sheep and the goats. I find it hard to imagion that anyone would not come around during the age of chastisement but who am I to say. I am reminded of the verse in the OT where God has sworn that every knee shall bow so I am thinking all will repent so none will be utterly destroyed, then again as you say it could be a forgery.


Do you agree with the passages that you have highlighted?

 

[Soul Searcher]

You should show where I have 'reinterpreted many parts of the bible to fit my doctrine'. Otherwise you shoud stop making false accusations.

I have made no false accusations, When you say that every man does not mean every man, that the whole world does not mean the whole world, that all does not mean all, that every does not mean every then you are reinterpreting to fit your doctorines.

I think all of us are guilty of this to some degree.

 

[Evergreen48]

Yes I have tried the spirits.... and continue to do so

Whether the Essene gospel is legit or a clever forgery I do not know. I see reason to think both ways here but regaurdless there is much good teaching within it's pages and that alone makes it a worthwhile read. The teachings of being merciful to animals for example as well as the statements of different people seeing the truth in different ways and discovering new truths as they grow and understand more and more.

In answer to your questions, yes the verses you hightlighted are in part what I was talking about, there is another somewhere in there that speaks of self defense but I forget now where it is. As to the one you underlined,I do not know, there is more clearification of that one in the sheep and the goats. I find it hard to imagion that anyone would not come around during the age of chastisement but who am I to say. I am reminded of the verse in the OT where God has sworn that every knee shall bow so I am thinking all will repent so none will be utterly destroyed, then again as you say it could be a forgery.


Do you agree with the passages that you have highlighted?

Well then, for goodness sake, Soul Searcher, if you do not know for sure that this gospel of the Essenes is legitimate, why do you even bother to quote from it? Are you not satisfied with what we have in the commonly accepted versions of the New Testament?

As far as their being as you say, 'much good teaching within it's pages'; the same could probably be said for some of the teachings in the Koran. But the Muslims do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God either. They say: 'What does God need with a son?'

Whether or not I agree with what was highligted is beside the point.

 

[Evergreen48]

I have made no false accusations, When you say that every man does not mean every man, that the whole world does not mean the whole world, that all does not mean all, that every does not mean every then you are reinterpreting to fit your doctorines.

I think all of us are guilty of this to some degree.

No. There is a difference between 'reinterpreting the scripture' and keeping it in its proper context. 'All' does mean all of that which is inside a particular frame work. And it is the same with 'every'. And also there is more than one world spoken of in the New Testament. And many times in the NT when the 'world' is spoken of, it means nothing more than the Jewish world.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Well then, for goodness sake, Soul Searcher, if you do not know for sure that this gospel of the Essenes is legitimate, why do you even bother to quote from it? Are you not satisfied with what we have in the commonly accepted versions of the New Testament?

I do not "know for sure" if any book is legitimate. I quote from it from time to time because it seems like the thing to do at the time and it has nothing to do with my satisfaction with what is in our bibles it has to do with perhaps gaining and/or giving a better understanding of what we are talking about.