Annihilationism?

[Colabomb]

This is one I've been wrangling with.

The Old testament, and many parts of the new, speak about the death and destruction of the wicked. However there are a few passages that lend themselves to the traditional concept of an eternal hell.

To which side do you lean, why, and how important is it?

CC Added: MOD Hat

 

[DeoJuvante]

To be honest, I've never understood where the notion of an eternal hell comes from. It has always seemed as though the Bible is suggesting annihilation instead. That said, I think that the importance of this question is around zero - what point is there in speculating about the afterlife?

 

[marciebaby]

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)

 

[DeoJuvante]

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)

It sounds like those texts are speaking of 'the devil and his angels'.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I don't plan on being on the other side, so I don't get excited by this kind of theology.

The key thing is to tell as many people as we can about Jesus.

 

[RailcarRev]

It seems to me that in the argument of Hell vs. non-existence, that the more compassionate thing for God to do would be to extinguish that particular soul than allow it to exist forever in pain and torment.

The concept of eternity doesn't really mean anything to us. It can't. We, as mortal humans, have only a limited mind and can define eternity (or infinity) in abstract terms. If there were a time limit for Hell, like a prison sentence, then yes, it would be more compassionate to go to Hell, even if the sentence is for 10 billion years, there will be a release. But if Hell is forever, non-existence is by far and away a kinder and more loving choice.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

The main reason why I 'get excited' about this kind of theology is to be better equipped when people ask me about it. Most non-believers and seekers, if you engage them in conversation about faith, will bring this subject up.

 

[2cents]

I don't believe in the eternal torment of sinners. The wages of sin is death, Jesus paid for our sins with His death, Jesus is not being eternally tormented for our sins.

P.S. building doctrine from the book of revelation is a way bad idea.

 

[TomUK]

After discussion the mods have decided to reopen this thread.

HOWEVER...

The forum rules currently state that discussion of annihilationism is prohibited. Therefore we have decided to offer you a choice. While we will not allow any discussion whatsoever on annihilationism, discussion on the immortality of the soul will be allowed.

If this thread can stay on topic and kepp discussing the immortality of the soul then there is no reason why this thread cannot stay open. If we stray into annihilationism then we will have to move this thread into unorthodox theologies.

I place this thread into the members hands to do with what you will.

 

[TomUK]

Thread reponed. EVEYONE please read the above mod hat. This thread WILL BE CLOSED if posters don't stick to the rules.

 

[JasonV]

I believe, like Origin, that ultimately all will be saved and return to God.

 

[No Swansong]

Universalism is also one of the forbidden topics.
We the mods had hoped we could contain this to a discussion of the immortatility of the soul. It appears we cannot. I will be closing this thread and we will probably be sending it to Unorthodox Theology.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Upon review, the thread has been moved from:
Scripture,Tradition,Reason-Anglican/Old Catholic
The forum for Anglican, Anglo-Catholic and Episcopal churches.

to Unorthodox Theology:

Unorthodox Theology
A forum to discuss theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)


[rule3.5]

The thread is now open.
Please post within the forum rules.

 

[Colabomb]

Well.......

 

[No Swansong]

Well what son?

 

[martymonster]

Annihilationism faces that same difficulties that eternal punishment faces.

it cuts God's saving arm off at the elbow.
it says that Christ does not get what He paid with His own blood for.
you have to ignore parts of the bible, and therefore the bible becomes very difficult, eg.

stuff about first fruits, people being least in the kingdom of Heaven, receiving different degrees of punishment (few stripes, many stripes) etc, etc.

The bible just does not make sense when viewed through the eyes of annihilationism or eternal punishment.
it becomes difficult to read and you have to perform theological acrobatics to attempt to make the bible make sense, eg.

Calvinism) God is not willing to save everyone and Christ died only for the sins of the elect who God decide ahead of time who they would be, and everyone else was created for the purpose of burning in Hell forever, and the saints will actually derive joy watching this from Heaven!

Annihilationism) God created the world but the whole thing got away from Him even though He is all knowing and supposedly knows the beginning from the end but some how didn't see the whole Satan loose cannon, fall of man, billions of Souls going to Hell thing coming!

Arminionism also believes that God is very weak and cannot go against the almighty will of men and He must respect their free will, at which point He will violate it in the most horrific fashion to throw billions into a literal lake of fire to torment them in unspeakable agony for all eternity, this is the majority view!

Most Christians believe one of these two theological views of the bible.
there is absolutely no way around it, only these two systems are possible outside of Universal Salvation.

Universalism) universalism sometimes called UR for short is the only viewpoint that fits scripturally and adheres to the charter of God as laid down by the bible.
it requires no twisting of the scriptures, to prove it's point. it is not without it's difficulties (verses the seem to teach eternal torment) but there is no where near the difficulties that the other two view points have.

problems arise when certain verses of the bible are taken literally. the bible is a spiritual book and uses spiritual language with each verse having double and often triple meanings!

The views of eternal torment and annihilationism severely hinder the readers understanding of the bible and therefore who God really is, and as a consequence a christian of very many years under these two belief systems may bear very little spiritual fruit!

 

[Evergreen48]

This is one I've been wrangling with.

The Old testament, and many parts of the new, speak about the death and destruction of the wicked. However there are a few passages that lend themselves to the traditional concept of an eternal hell.

To which side do you lean, why, and how important is it?

CC Added: MOD Hat

I don't know if the 'wicked' just simply not ever being resurrected at all, would be considered annihilation or not. But that is what I have always leaned toward the most. (I don't believe the Bible teaches such a place as the traditional concept of hell, let alone an eternal hell) And even more so, now that I have seen those who are Universalists use up all of their 'fire power', and still not produce ample evidence or proof that their doctrine is correct. ('fire power' being scripture they are using out of its proper context, or scriptures that could just as well be interpreted to mean something entirely different to what they claim they mean. Or seemingly endless copy and paste articles by other Universalists who are gifted in being able to author articles and even complete books in such a creative and artful manner, that unless one is careful to really scrutinize what they are reading, they will hardly notice that very few scriptures are used in these writings, and that most of the writing is strictly conjecture on the part of the author.) For when all is said and done they simply do not have the scriptural proof necessary to convince beyond a very strong doubt that everyone is going to become immortal.

As far as how important it is to me, it is not that important to me, for in the end we are all in the hands of a just, merciful, and all wise God who will do with each of us as He sees fit, regardless of what our dispositon toward the matter might be.


As to why I take the position that I take, I believe that God is good and wise, and being so, He would end the misery of the wicked permanently rather than prolonging it.


But seeing scriptures used out of their context, and in some cases, even added to, or part of it left off, for some reason seems to always invoke a very argumentative spirit in me.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Well to me eternal torment is a ridiculous notion. No loving being could ever cuase nor allow any other creature to be tormented for eternity for any reason whatsoever.

Annihilation is illogical. Why would God raise the dead just to kill them again? Makes no sense at all.

The notion that the so called wicked are not raised is refuted several times in the bible so this one also does not add up.

There are numerous passages that indicate either directly or indirectly that all men can and will be saved. This is the only doctorine that truly makes any sense imo and in light of scripture.

God is no respector of persons, he will not give one person a free pass while totally destroying or eternally torturing another, especially not based on a belief system that is flawed at it's core. Yes people will go through trails of fire either in this age or the one to come perhaps both even but these things are all done for a purpose and the end result is all part of the original plan of making man into Gods image.

 

[Parmenio]

I really appreciate all the posts on this topic, I haven't ever really thought seriously about this subject, and am really finding the discussion interesting. If any of the UA could, I'd appreciate scripture in support. Thanks!

 

[martymonster]

Well to me eternal torment is a ridiculous notion. No loving being could ever cuase nor allow any other creature to be tormented for eternity for any reason whatsoever.

Annihilation is illogical. Why would God raise the dead just to kill them again? Makes no sense at all.

The notion that the so called wicked are not raised is refuted several times in the bible so this one also does not add up.

There are numerous passages that indicate either directly or indirectly that all men can and will be saved. This is the only doctorine that truly makes any sense imo and in light of scripture.

God is no respector of persons, he will not give one person a free pass while totally destroying or eternally torturing another, especially not based on a belief system that is flawed at it's core. Yes people will go through trails of fire either in this age or the one to come perhaps both even but these things are all done for a purpose and the end result is all part of the original plan of making man into Gods image.

Anihilationism is also illogical because why bother to put those people here in the first place, unless you think that those people just happen to be here in the first place in which case you probably believe the lie about God's creation getting away from Him, which opens up cans and cans worms.

Annihilationism reminds me of an artist who tries to do a painting but stuffs it up so He picks it up, destroys it and throws it out the window in a fit of rage, then he starts a new one!

That's not the picture that the bible paints of God!


1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.