Annihilationism?

[Fireinfolding]

There are so many ~ISMS~ arent there?

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Benoni]

I don't know if the 'wicked' just simply not ever being resurrected at all, would be considered annihilation or not. But that is what I have always leaned toward the most. (I don't believe the Bible teaches such a place as the traditional concept of hell, let alone an eternal hell) And even more so, now that I have seen those who are Universalists use up all of their 'fire power', and still not produce ample evidence or proof that their doctrine is correct. ('fire power' being scripture they are using out of its proper context, or scriptures that could just as well be interpreted to mean something entirely different to what they claim they mean. Or seemingly endless copy and paste articles by other Universalists who are gifted in being able to author articles and even complete books in such a creative and artful manner, that unless one is careful to really scrutinize what they are reading, they will hardly notice that very few scriptures are used in these writings, and that most of the writing is strictly conjecture on the part of the author.) For when all is said and done they simply do not have the scriptural proof necessary to convince beyond a very strong doubt that everyone is going to become immortal.

As far as how important it is to me, it is not that important to me, for in the end we are all in the hands of a just, merciful, and all wise God who will do with each of us as He sees fit, regardless of what our dispositon toward the matter might be.


As to why I take the position that I take, I believe that God is good and wise, and being so, He would end the misery of the wicked permanently rather than prolonging it.


But seeing scriptures used out of their context, and in some cases, even added to, or part of it left off, for some reason seems to always invoke a very argumentative spirit in me.

Yes there is an argumentative spirit; and I as guilty as any one on either side. Most of us URs are seeking truth and our search goes far beyond that is discussed here. I believe most of God’s Word is deep and is hidden from most. We are fighting two thousand years of religious bias which included a thousand year dark age of total religious ignorance. God’s Word is the most awesome and misunderstood revelation this old dark carnal/religious world has, It cannot be restricted because religious men want to control it or stop its flow by their doctrines of fear and annihilation.

I will admit religion has progressed sense the dark ages as they receive new revelation; but instead of reaching for the New Wine of the Spirit; they build another system (wall), denomination or creed. Did you ever notice when Constantine made Christianity a system; is when that thousand year dark age began for all of the christian world.

I probably do more cut and paste then any one. But there is something different with the anointed men of God I quote. They do not sell God’s Word; it is freely given away.

You have to come here to discuss this subject because the orthodox or religious part of this forum refuses to talk about it. Here at least the subject is discussed and minds are allowed be changed when they can see both sides of the picture. If I dare try to go to any so called christian forum I am refused access and told I need be a christian. How shallow.

Only religion and politics will close there minds to out side thought. The Bible says we are suppose to seek ask and knock; religion will quote the same; but then will build up the walls of dogmas and doctrine and debate and discuss; with carnal religious men just like themselves.

But at the same time the eternal hellist have twisted and misconstrued this doctrine damnation; and even more important then that they closed their spiritual eyes to any possibility they are wrong. There are large gapping holes in your doctrines of damnation and either two things happen; they receive the truth and move on; or they get so mad you never hear from them again.

 

[martymonster]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What is a gift?

is it something you can earn?

I preach life, Jesus preached Life, but you preach death Evergreen!

The bible does not support annihilation, and it make no sense!

What you preach accuses Christ of falling short!

 

[Fireinfolding]

Evergreen48 writes

But seeing scriptures used out of their context, and in some cases, even added to, or part of it left off, for some reason seems to always invoke a very argumentative spirit in me.

Evergreen, I posted this elsewhere as well, I have often wondered why others teach "context, context, context" AS IF reading in context makes everyone agree or understand. When Jesus spoke in a parable it was of dark sayings OF OLD. That understood God by the ministry of the prophets who were multiplied visions and He used "similitudes" by them. We are told to "compare spiritual things with spirit" rightly dividing the word of truth. Not only so, but more interestingly He would open his dark saying "upon a harp". You cant find out what "the harp" is unless you search to find out how its used in multitudes of places throughout scripture. There are tons of things NOT found "using context".

Paul used "figures" spoke of "mysteries" (in fact was a steward of the "mysteries of God). He had the "LIGHT" of the gospel (that which is shown as parables). He showed things by the use of allegories, things which were figurative" and those things in revelation are "signified".The Spirit of them is Truth.



Paul pulled from the scripture in the past and relocated the things "back there" into the present. When he did this Paul did NOT by the Holy Spirit take of the books and read them "in context", the context in present was Christ to whom both the scriptures and the Holy Spirit do testify of.

Heres one example you can read for yourself (better even if you do it having a "footnoted" bible in front of you).


Scriptures never gives reproofs concerning context in its instruction (men do)

Look at "the example" of this very thing

In Romans 10:1-21

Paul starts at... Lev 18:5 ...

....moves right into.... Duet 30:12-14

....next he turns to... Isaiah 28:16

...immediately following that... Joel 2:32

...he returns back into.... Isaiah 52:7

....He skips "up to".... Isaiah 53:1

...now he turns to.... Psalms 19:4

....then back in .....Duet 32:21

.....now and up to.... Isaiah 65:1-2


These "verses" of scripture used of Paul created Romans 10:1-21 which is only 21 verses long. So to speak 21 sentences Paul utilizes 5 different books but in 9 different places (various chapters) within those books.

10 of those "21 verses" came from 5 different books BUT they are NOT from the chapters of those same books. Only ONCE are 2 verses taken at one time. In fact theres another place (I need to find this in my documents) Paul uses and quotes the first half of the verse (which is positive) and cuts off the latter half of that verse which appears MOST SEVERE.

The other 11 verses are Paul's "interjections" between them.

Can you find Paul's "sense of context" according to how men command the use of context?

The Holy Spirits footsteps are recorded through Pauls words. These were tracked and marked by scholars who "footnoted" Him (who was led of the Holy Spirit).

I have no outside influence or church upbringing myself. I went to church 3 months after being drawn to Christ, and I was called out. I have been out for 17 years now, Hes never led me to read "in context" ever, I always "compare" spiritual things with spiritual as I have been "led to do". That does not validate it simply because I do, I understand that. I simply cannot understand the "context issue" wouldnt "mans wisdom" teach this?

At best (in context, without comparing) one could only project their own interpretation upon it. But that would be a vain imagination because its not of any mans own private interpretation.

I cant help but think that even Paul would be stoned by theologians today for doing as the Holy Spirit led him. The "context rule" along with other rules imposed upon by men seem to fly in the face of what he did.


Paul was called a "babbler", which I think was "meant to be" an insult (not sure) but it is quite a compliment considering the same is as one of the "Masters" of the assemblies.

lol

Picture sitting there in Pauls day...

Bibles opened

and every sentence he speaks comes from another book

Paul must have sounded very "out of context"

I have convinced myself to start studying this out much more thoroughly because it seems to be such a big issue.

I would hope to post it when Im finished so I dont hear

CONTEXT!!! (screamed at me all the time) LOL

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Benoni]

The apostle Paul, speaking of the whole armor of God, admonishes the
saints to "put on…the sword of the Spirit, WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD"
(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of
God’s word is "QUICK." Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For
the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it
active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any
two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified). Ah, yes, here is the sword that
conquers the death in us and GIVES LIFE! As it is written, "It is the
spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing…for the letter
killeth, but the spirit giveth life!" (Jn. 6:63; II Cor. 3:6). The sword
of the Spirit is the quickening, energizing, life-giving WORD OF GOD!
I shall not hesitate to explain to you, that there are two aspects of the Word
of God. Jesus Christ is the Word — the Logos —
THE LIVING, CREATIVE WORD! But there is also that word which Paul calls "the
letter." The letter is the outer hull, the record and history, the laws
and commandments, the rules and regulations, the types, shadows and
figures, the external ordinances, rituals, ceremonies, and feasts; the
visible form of the word which tells us, in terms understandable by the
natural mind, many things about the Living Word, Jesus Christ. As I
meditated upon the Cherubim and the flaming sword in Genesis, the Spirit
spoke within me, saying, "The flaming sword is a word!" Then in a sudden
burst of divine illumination the truth of it dawned powerfully upon me.
Christ is the Word, the Living Word, and IN HIM IS LIFE! But the flaming
sword at the portal of Eden is a word, not the Word, not the living Word,
but the form of the Word, that is, A WORD about THE WORD!
It should be clear to any thinking mind that the law given by Moses was a word from God. Many, many scriptures confirm that it was the very Lord Himself who spoke to Moses giving him the laws, commandments, judgments, and ordinances. Therefore it is called "the law of the Lord." Yet Paul, in speaking of this word from God, calls it "the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones." Then he further designates it "the
ministration of condemnation." You, see, the law could only condemn! The only way the law could give life was if one perfectly kept it, but for every broken law there was a penalty. And no one was ever able to keep it! "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Therefore the law with all of its commandments, ceremonies, rituals, sacrifices, and observances is a dead word, it is form without essence, law without
life, shadow without substance, chaff without kernel, it is the letter that killeth! It is "a word" about "The Word" and therefore shuts men up unto the dominion of death. It should not be difficult to understand that as Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God, the sword of the Spirit that quickens, so is the Letter of the Word a deadly sword, killing rather than quickening. Ah, two words and two swords! The flaming sword of the
Cherubim is the word of the law which is a ministration of condemnation and death. It keeps men out of Eden, away from the tree of life! But the sword out of the mouth of God’s Christ is a living sword that excelleth in glory as the ministration of Life! Under the anointing a brother said, "
J Preston Eby

1 John 2:27​

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

There is a problem with man approach to the truth; and I am just as guilty we all have our bias and want people to see it my way. Let “The Spirit of Truth”, reveal too me not; the 10,000 voices of Babylon who all have a different understanding.

I heard a Baptist say on the radio one day “that when you see something in scriptures that is so awesome and so impossible and only a few can see it. That is spiritual. Narrow is that gate that leads to life and few will find it. (Matt. 7:14) I see that verse in a total different light because I know Jesus did a total job for all man kind on Calvary; and not just the few religion think will be saved.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Fireinfolding:

Very interesting, I had noticed that Paul had used bits and pieces of scripture here and there but never really paid that much attention to it. Now I will have to check it out a bit closer for myself.

Thanks for that bit of info

 

[Evergreen48]

Evergreen48 writes


Evergreen, I posted this elsewhere as well, I have often wondered why others teach "context, context, context" AS IF reading in context makes everyone agree or understand. When Jesus spoke in a parable it was of dark sayings OF OLD. That understood God by the ministry of the prophets who were multiplied visions and He used "similitudes" by them. We are told to "compare spiritual things with spirit" rightly dividing the word of truth. Not only so, but more interestingly He would open his dark saying "upon a harp". You cant find out what "the harp" is unless you search to find out how its used in multitudes of places throughout scripture. There are tons of things NOT found "using context".

Paul used "figures" spoke of "mysteries" (in fact was a steward of the "mysteries of God). He had the "LIGHT" of the gospel (that which is shown as parables). He showed things by the use of allegories, things which were figurative" and those things in revelation are "signified".The Spirit of them is Truth.



Paul pulled from the scripture in the past and relocated the things "back there" into the present. When he did this Paul did NOT by the Holy Spirit take of the books and read them "in context", the context in present was Christ to whom both the scriptures and the Holy Spirit do testify of.

Heres one example you can read for yourself (better even if you do it having a "footnoted" bible in front of you).


Scriptures never gives reproofs concerning context in its instruction (men do)

Look at "the example" of this very thing

In Romans 10:1-21

Paul starts at... Lev 18:5 ...

....moves right into.... Duet 30:12-14

....next he turns to... Isaiah 28:16

...immediately following that... Joel 2:32

...he returns back into.... Isaiah 52:7

....He skips "up to".... Isaiah 53:1

...now he turns to.... Psalms 19:4

....then back in .....Duet 32:21

.....now and up to.... Isaiah 65:1-2


These "verses" of scripture used of Paul created Romans 10:1-21 which is only 21 verses long. So to speak 21 sentences Paul utilizes 5 different books but in 9 different places (various chapters) within those books.

10 of those "21 verses" came from 5 different books BUT they are NOT from the chapters of those same books. Only ONCE are 2 verses taken at one time. In fact theres another place (I need to find this in my documents) Paul uses and quotes the first half of the verse (which is positive) and cuts off the latter half of that verse which appears MOST SEVERE.

The other 11 verses are Paul's "interjections" between them.

Can you find Paul's "sense of context" according to how men command the use of context?

The Holy Spirits footsteps are recorded through Pauls words. These were tracked and marked by scholars who "footnoted" Him (who was led of the Holy Spirit).

I have no outside influence or church upbringing myself. I went to church 3 months after being drawn to Christ, and I was called out. I have been out for 17 years now, Hes never led me to read "in context" ever, I always "compare" spiritual things with spiritual as I have been "led to do". That does not validate it simply because I do, I understand that. I simply cannot understand the "context issue" wouldnt "mans wisdom" teach this?

At best (in context, without comparing) one could only project their own interpretation upon it. But that would be a vain imagination because its not of any mans own private interpretation.

I cant help but think that even Paul would be stoned by theologians today for doing as the Holy Spirit led him. The "context rule" along with other rules imposed upon by men seem to fly in the face of what he did.


Paul was called a "babbler", which I think was "meant to be" an insult (not sure) but it is quite a compliment considering the same is as one of the "Masters" of the assemblies.

lol

Picture sitting there in Pauls day...

Bibles opened and every sentence he speaks comes from another book

Paul must have sounded very "out of context"

I have convinced myself to start studying this out much more thoroughly because it seems to be such a big issue.

I would hope to post it when Im finished so I dont hear

CONTEXT!!! (screamed at me all the time) LOL

Peace

Fireinfolding

Hi fireinfolding.


My definition of 'context ' would be that which is established by obeying the following precepts as precedents to the reading any material, including the Bible.

1. Who is speaking.
2. To whom is that person speaking,
3. About what is he speaking.
Please give your definition of 'context'.

Blessings,
Evergreen48

(Sorry, I had to do away with some of your cute little images in order to be able to get my smilie in. )

 

[Evergreen48]

First you say this:

Most of us URs are seeking truth and our search goes far beyond that is discussed here. I believe most of God’s Word is deep and is hidden from most.

And then you say this:

I heard a Baptist say on the radio one day "that when you see something in scriptures that is so awesome and so impossible and only a few can see it. That is spiritual. Narrow is that gate that leads to life and few will find it. (Matt. 7:14) I see that verse in a total different light because I know Jesus did a total job for all man kind on Calvary; and not just the few religion think will be saved.

I'm not sure where you are coming from, Benoni. But blessings to you anyway.

 

[Evergreen48]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What is a gift?

is it something you can earn?

I preach life, Jesus preached Life, but you preach death Evergreen!

The bible does not support annihilation, and it make no sense!

What you preach accuses Christ of falling short!

I am not a preacher. I simply gave my opinion, martymonster.

The following is some scripture that you might consider to better understand where I am coming from on this.

"Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.
The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree." (Job 24:19-20)

Psalms 1: 1. "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Psalms 49: 15. " But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. (Note the Psalmist says that God will redeem his soul from the power of the grave, but does not say the same about those that he speaks of in the following passages. )
16. Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased;
17. For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
18. Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself.
19. He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
20. Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish."

Blessings.
Evergreen48

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hi fireinfolding.


My definition of 'context ' would be that which is established by obeying the following precepts as precedents to the reading any material, including the Bible.

1. Who is speaking.
2. To whom is that person speaking,
3. About what is he speaking.
Please give your definition of 'context'.

Blessings,
Evergreen48

(Sorry, I had to do away with some of your cute little images in order to be able to get my smilie in. )

Thats ok Ill add more

The Holy Spirit shows the context depending on His teaching us. Its just how I see Him doing it, He quickens to you where to look.

For instance, the thousand years... Peter is the ONLY apostle to mention the thousand years.

Lets do a little experiment okay?

I want to watch YOU try to expound "a verse" to ME. I want you tell me WHEN, and HOW you will know what this verse is saying "is past".

Give it a whirl (to interpret what its speaking of in its context).

Heres the verse

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years (( in thy sight )) are but as yesterday ~ WHEN~ it IS PAST, ((and)) AS a WATCH in the NIGHT .

How would YOU know to declare something AS yesterday by this verse in its context?

Another apostle (not Peter) speaks of it in a mystery.


But "I think" that would be outside the rules of "context" for you though wouldnt it be?


Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Fireinfolding]

Fireinfolding:

Very interesting, I had noticed that Paul had used bits and pieces of scripture here and there but never really paid that much attention to it. Now I will have to check it out a bit closer for myself.

Thanks for that bit of info

Welcome... take a look

You helped me earlier

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[RailcarRev]

I am not a preacher. I simply gave my opinion, martymonster.

The following is some scripture that you might consider to better understand where I am coming from on this.

"Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.
The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree." (Job 24:19-20)

Psalms 1: 1. "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Psalms 49: 15. " But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. (Note the Psalmist says that God will redeem his soul from the power of the grave, but does not say the same about those that he speaks of in the following passages. )
16. Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased;
17. For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
18. Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself.
19. He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
20. Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish."

Blessings.
Evergreen48

Evergreen, you need to take into considderation that all of what you just quoted comes from the Old Testament. Now, more experienced amature, or professional, theologians (or a Jew for that matter) might correct me here, but I'm pretty sure that the Jews believed that when a person died he or she remained dead until that day when the Messiah will come to "judge the quick and the dead". That being said, I think it is pretty clear as to the actual meaning of your quoted scripture: On the day of the Lord, those that are dead will remain so, and "The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more rememberd; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree."

Peace.

 

[Benoni]

I am not a preacher. I simply gave my opinion, martymonster.

The following is some scripture that you might consider to better understand where I am coming from on this.

"Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.
The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree." (Job 24:19-20)

Psalms 1: 1. "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Psalms 49: 15. " But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. (Note the Psalmist says that God will redeem his soul from the power of the grave, but does not say the same about those that he speaks of in the following passages. )
16. Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased;
17. For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
18. Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself.
19. He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
20. Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish."

Blessings.
Evergreen48

Evergreen48

I appreciate you coming to discuss debate God’s Word. Most Christian would rather sit back in their little religious world and dare not speak to someone who believes so contrary to their religious dogmas. I am not sure what religion you are affiliated with; but my point is there is always more if our spirit is open.

We do believe the wicked will be punished justly; we do not believe it is eternal. There are so many loop holes in the doctrines of Damnation; just like there are barriers we have to overcome many barriers we believe are bad translations. I follow what I see is God’s anointed Word not the tradition of religion.


First of all what is chaff. Chaff is the part of the leaf of wheat; it is not the grain. When wheat grows the chaff is that outer protective covering of the grain of wheat (it has to be there or the wheat would die). In Bible times they would have to thresh the wheat at harvest time to separate the wheat from the chaff; today we have Hugh combines. The chaff is just as important as the grain of wheat until the appointed time of maturity. Then it becomes worthless and will blow away into the wind.

What is the soul, the spirit and the body? The soul is the mind the intellect the reasoning of a human person. The body is obvious naturally speaking but there re a lot of awesome symbolisms. But the spirit is my point; where does a man’s spirit go?

Ecclesiastes 12:7​

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

​

There is no clarification of wicked or the unjust or even the just in this verse or the one below.

​

Ecclesiastes 3: 20 ​

All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.​

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?​

22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works;​

for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?​

​

Vs. 19 with reference to “never seeing light” Something has to give because: Luke 3:6 (Amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

 

[karen freeinchristman]

Fireinfolding:

Very interesting, I had noticed that Paul had used bits and pieces of scripture here and there but never really paid that much attention to it. Now I will have to check it out a bit closer for myself.

Thanks for that bit of info

I agree with Soul Searcher here - that was interesting!

 

[Fireinfolding]

I agree with Soul Searcher here - that was interesting!

Our GOD ROCKS!!!

Dont He?



Peace sis!!

fireinfolding

 

[Colabomb]

Like I said, what sparked this question in my mind, is the realization that Scripture almost always refers to the wicked and unregenerate as being "destroyed" or "killed". Admittedly there are portions of scripture that could lend themselves to the concept of eternal torment, but I must admit that they do seem to be in things like parables and apocalyptic liturature like revelation.

It seems to me lately, that in the portions meant to be taken more literally, destruction or death is almost assumed.

 

[martymonster]

Like I said, what sparked this question in my mind, is the realization that Scripture almost always refers to the wicked and unregenerate as being "destroyed" or "killed". Admittedly there are portions of scripture that could lend themselves to the concept of eternal torment, but I must admit that they do seem to be in things like parables and apocalyptic liturature like revelation.

It seems to me lately, that in the portions meant to be taken more literally, destruction or death is almost assumed.

I think death in the new testament is symbolic.
I can't tell exactly what it does mean, but I can tell you that it does have to do with Jesus defeating His enemies with the sword that comes out of His mouth (which btw is symbolic aswell)

 

[Evergreen48]

We do believe the wicked will be punished justly; we do not believe it is eternal.

It makes no sense to me that if Christ was punished for the sins of everyone, including those who are being called the wicked, why would they be punished further. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit:"

First of all what is chaff. Chaff is the part of the leaf of wheat; it is not the grain. When wheat grows the chaff is that outer protective covering of the grain of wheat (it has to be there or the wheat would die). In Bible times they would have to thresh the wheat at harvest time to separate the wheat from the chaff; today we have Hugh combines. The chaff is just as important as the grain of wheat until the appointed time of maturity. Then it becomes worthless and will blow away into the wind.

In 'Bible times', there was a process in agriculture by which the chaff was driven towards a fire prepared for burning it, in order that it might not be blown back and mixed again with the wheat. There is an allusion to this ancient agricultural process in Matthew 3:12 & Luke 3:17.

What is the soul, the spirit and the body? The soul is the mind the intellect the reasoning of a human person.

We almost agree on this one. I believe that a person's soul is their separate identity. Or that which makes them unique and identifiable as a separate person from among all others.

The body is obvious naturally speaking but there re a lot of awesome symbolisms. But the spirit is my point; where does a man’s spirit go?

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and thespirit shall return unto God who gave it.There is no clarification of wicked or the unjust or even the just in this verse or the one below.
Ecclesiastes 3: 20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works;
for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Do you believe animals, or beasts have souls?

Vs. 19 with reference to "never seeing light" Something has to give because: Luke 3:6 (Amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

Luke 3:6 is only part of a quotation from Isaiah 40.
1. "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2. Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3. And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4. As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6. And all flesh shall see the salvation of God."

Isaiah 40:3. "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5. And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

I believe that the 'all flesh' as mentioned in Luke 3:6 and Isaiah 40:5, would have meant 'all flesh' as in the sense of both the Jews to whom Isaiah the prophet was sent, and the Gentiles, who previous to the coming of our Saviour, had not seen, heard, or promised this salvation of God. But because Jesus, by His blood shed on the cross, "removed the middle wall of petition " between Jew and Gentiles, it allowed all flesh, not just the Jews who previously had been the only people on earth who had seen and enjoyed God's salvation, but all other peoples of the earth to both see and enjoy the salvation of God which was wrought through His Son, Jesus Christ.

Blessings, and thanks for your response, Benoni.
Evergreen48

 

[Evergreen48]

Evergreen, you need to take into considderation that all of what you just quoted comes from the Old Testament. Now, more experienced amature, or professional, theologians (or a Jew for that matter) might correct me here, but I'm pretty sure that the Jews believed that when a person died he or she remained dead until that day when the Messiah will come to "judge the quick and the dead". That being said, I think it is pretty clear as to the actual meaning of your quoted scripture: On the day of the Lord, those that are dead will remain so, and "The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more rememberd; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree."

Peace.

I think you are probably correct about what the Jews believed. But it seems to be the opinion of whoever wrote the book of Job, and also the opinion of the Psalmist, that the wicked shall not be resurrected on the 'day of the Lord', or any time afterwards either.

And though I am guessing that instead of 'ON the day of the Lord, those that are dead will remain so - ', you meant, 'UNTIL the day of the Lord, those that are dead will remain so', your typo (if it was a typo) turned out to be correct.

Thanks for your response.
Blessings -

Evergreen48

 

[Evergreen48]

Thats ok Ill add more

The Holy Spirit shows the context depending on His teaching us. Its just how I see Him doing it, He quickens to you where to look.

For instance, the thousand years... Peter is the ONLY apostle to mention the thousand years.

Lets do a little experiment okay?

I want to watch YOU try to expound "a verse" to ME. I want you tell me WHEN, and HOW you will know what this verse is saying "is past".

Give it a whirl (to interpret what its speaking of in its context).

Heres the verse

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years (( in thy sight )) are but as yesterday ~ WHEN~ it IS PAST, ((and)) AS a WATCH in the NIGHT .

How would YOU know to declare something AS yesterday by this verse in its context?

Another apostle (not Peter) speaks of it in a mystery.


But "I think" that would be outside the rules of "context" for you though wouldnt it be?

Fireinfolding, I still do not have any idea about what your definition of 'context' would be. So I'm not sure about what you are trying to convey here. But I'm sure you would understand that there are some scriptures, which transcend contextuality. That is, they are just as true, or that they convey the same meaning in any context in which they might be placed.

Thank you for your response.
Blessings -
Evergreen48